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Old 05-25-2017, 11:21 AM   #1
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Advice for descending a steep long hill

Hi -

We are new to this forum as we have purchased a 2018 Palomino Solaire 240 BHS and will be towing it with a 2015 Jeep Grand Cherokee Summit V6 3.0L EcoDiesel with a Tekonsha P3 Brake Controller. (We have not picked up our new trailer yet)

On our last trip with our prior trailer we were towing a 2012 Crusier RV Fun Finder 214WSD and went from Yosemite to Lee Vining over the Tioga pass, which has an 8 mile section descends 2500 feet with portions of it at 8% grade.

We have never crossed a pass this steep and long and we needed to pull over because our front brakes were smoking.

We were going as slow as we could but the of momentum of course wants to increase speed and we were in 2nd gear most of the time.

What should we be doing to make sure we are traveling down hills safely. Any and all advice is much appreciated.

Thanks ~
Theresa
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Old 05-25-2017, 11:42 AM   #2
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Use your gears for engine braking, as much as possible and turn the brake controller to boost 3. Rule of thumb is the speed you go up is the speed you go down. Put on your hazards and ride the right lane. Pick your speed out and when you get 5 or so over, brake firm and let it go after you are 5 below.
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Old 05-25-2017, 12:18 PM   #3
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Does your EcoDiesel engine have an exhaust brake? On our truck going down even 8% grades the exhaust brake will keep the speed locked in and 99% of the time I don't even have to hit the brake pedal. It's pretty amazing and if the EcoDiesel doesn't come with it, it might be worth checking into as an aftermarket mod.
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Old 05-25-2017, 01:44 PM   #4
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I ran into this situation last summer going over the Big Horn Mountains on our
way to Yellowstone. Hwy 14 has a 6% grade for many miles on the East side
of the Big Horns. I tow a 26ft Forest River TT with my Ford f150 Ecoboost.
Going up I could go about as fast as the road would let me. The Ecoboost
did a terrific job and I probably averaged around 45 - 50mph. I had more pedal left. Coming down was another experience. I kept it in 2nd and sometimes 1st all the way down. I averaged about 25mph.I had to step on the brakes a couple times just to help slow me down. Never got close to heating the brakes up and it really was a fun ride. Couple times I pulled over to let others get by. I wasn't to concerned about the cars in back of me, I knew they would get past eventually. The idea of going down the same speed as you went up is kind of ridiculous to me and I wouldn't be here today if I followed that advice. Just put it in the lowest gear you need to even if it's 1st gear and hit the brakes from time to time to keep it under control. Have a fun trip.
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Old 05-25-2017, 02:08 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HONDAMAN174 View Post
Use your gears for engine braking, as much as possible and turn the brake controller to boost 3. Rule of thumb is the speed you go up is the speed you go down. Put on your hazards and ride the right lane. Pick your speed out and when you get 5 or so over, brake firm and let it go after you are 5 below.
Yup, you don't want to ride your brakes continuously. On and off as mentioned. Brakes like to be run hard, but need a chance to cool. I doubt the Ecodiesel has an exhaust brake, but I could easily be wrong, but it might have enough engine compression to help slow down if you're in a lower gear.
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Old 05-25-2017, 02:13 PM   #6
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http://www.greendieselengineering.co.../list/175.page


Found a tune that adds it
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Old 05-25-2017, 02:51 PM   #7
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Keep Tow Haul Mode on !
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Old 05-25-2017, 03:06 PM   #8
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Quote:
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Engine braking feature


Found a tune that adds it

Cool, if it works as good as our Cummins, with that you may not have to use your brakes at all.
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Old 05-25-2017, 03:12 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by breul View Post
The idea of going down the same speed as you went up is kind of ridiculous to me and I wouldn't be here today if I followed that advice. Just put it in the lowest gear you need to even if it's 1st gear and hit the brakes from time to time to keep it under control. Have a fun trip.
Ask any truck driver and the advice will be down as fast as up or slower. Go over black mountain on I40 and you will notice big trucks have a lower speed limit for a reason
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Old 05-25-2017, 03:23 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by breul View Post
I ran into this situation last summer going over the Big Horn Mountains on our way to Yellowstone. Hwy 14 has a 6% grade for many miles on the East side...


That climb from Dayton to Burgess is 4000' and averages 6%, some spots are 8%. Hell of a climb. Tight 25mph hairpins. Nice pill outs and overlooks. Headed there again in August.

To the OP, don't rush. Use your gears for maximum engine braking. Never ride the brakes. watch for smoke from the brakes in the mirrors. They more you have to use them the hotter they get. When they he real hot you will begin to lose braking effort and can lose all braking ability.
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Old 05-26-2017, 06:40 AM   #11
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Diesels have less engine braking than gas engines. The rule before exhaust and engine brakes were common on diesels was one gear lower on the way down than on the way up.

"Compression" braking is a misnomer, since it has nothing to do with compression. Any energy absorbed by the piston rising in the cylinder is returned as it travels back down. Gas engines have better braking because they suck against a closed throttle butterfly, so it's actually "suction" braking. Diesel engines do not have a throttle butterfly, so no vacuum to hold the engine back.

Clessie Cummins discovered this problem when he was demoing his first diesel engines in big trucks and solved it by putting a butterfly in the airflow. Only he put it in the exhaust, not the intake, and invented the exhaust brake.

Long story short - start the hill slower, in first if you have to. Once your brakes start smoking, the gasses coming off the brake pads will actually push the pads away from the rotors and your braking power will diminish rapidly. If your brakes are smoking, you're going too fast to start with.
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Old 05-26-2017, 07:04 AM   #12
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Good to know

Quote:
Originally Posted by MIFarmer View Post
Diesels have less engine braking than gas engines. The rule before exhaust and engine brakes were common on diesels was one gear lower on the way down than on the way up.

"Compression" braking is a misnomer, since it has nothing to do with compression. Any energy absorbed by the piston rising in the cylinder is returned as it travels back down. Gas engines have better braking because they suck against a closed throttle butterfly, so it's actually "suction" braking. Diesel engines do not have a throttle butterfly, so no vacuum to hold the engine back.

Clessie Cummins discovered this problem when he was demoing his first diesel engines in big trucks and solved it by putting a butterfly in the airflow. Only he put it in the exhaust, not the intake, and invented the exhaust brake.

Long story short - start the hill slower, in first if you have to. Once your brakes start smoking, the gasses coming off the brake pads will actually push the pads away from the rotors and your braking power will diminish rapidly. If your brakes are smoking, you're going too fast to start with.
Knew about Jake brakes but never knew how they worked... Thanks for the education.
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Old 05-26-2017, 08:03 AM   #13
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Some non-diesels have engine braking also. In "Tow Haul" mode, my truck will hold a certain gear on descent to help with braking. If you have a Tow/Haul mode, check manual to see how it works. Safe travels.
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Old 05-26-2017, 08:24 AM   #14
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Knew about Jake brakes but never knew how they worked... Thanks for the education.
No problem. Other diesel engine braking trivia that is taking up useful space in my memory:

"Jake" brake is short for Jacobs, one of the popular manufacturers of engine and exhaust brake systems. For a while, Jacobs had a link on their website that you could submit a photo and location of a "No Jake Brakes" sign so they could send lawyers after them, since the municipality was using their trademarked name in referencing all engine retarders.

The system commonly referenced by "Jake Brake" is an engine braking system, not an exhaust brake as I described above. An engine brake sits on top of the valve train on a diesel engine and will pop open the exhaust valve on each cylinder just as the piston reaches top dead center of the compression stroke. So the compression in the cylinder is built up and then dumped out the exhaust before it can push the piston back down during the power stroke. This is what gives off the RAP-RAP-RAP sound as a semi comes to a stop. It's a much more complex system and much more expensive, but it can provide about as much braking power as the engine can produce in pulling power.
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Old 05-26-2017, 12:51 PM   #15
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Steep Downhill

My rule is that I gear down and if I have to hit the breaks often, I stop and unhook my tow vehicle and get my wife to drive it down the hill. I have handled an 8% grade, however, with my Ford V10 and with a tow car with very little braking required.
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Old 05-26-2017, 03:17 PM   #16
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I Double hitch my Fifth Wheel and boat over Colorado mountain passes all summer long. My truck is a Duramax, but no Jake, (wish I had one). I will pull down to first gear and only hit the brakes when RPM's approach red line. Slow going but I have plenty of stopping power in an emergency. I'm also considerate of other drivers, and move over whenever there's room. You need to keep in mind that since you're not converting momentum to heat in your brakes, your building that heat up in your transmission. I have a tranny temp gauge so can monitor on the down hill run. Have had it get hot once, but was at the bottom of the hill and could turn it loose to cool down. I also change tranny fluid and filter on my Allison every 30 grand. I do plan to investigate an after market setup for a Jake.
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Old 05-26-2017, 03:49 PM   #17
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My rule is that I gear down and if I have to hit the breaks often, I stop and unhook my tow vehicle and get my wife to drive it down the hill. I have handled an 8% grade, however, with my Ford V10 and with a tow car with very little braking required.
I hope you meant "my towed vehicle" as in "toad."



Unhooking your TV doesn't help get a trailer down the hill.
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Old 05-26-2017, 03:57 PM   #18
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Just went through the Rockies......got disc brakes in advance, but truthfully it was not a big deal.

Exhaust brake and tow haul mode...hit brake once and it downshifts (I could have gone to Manual and done it myself), hit it again and it downshifts again. I rarely even used the brakes, just every once in a while.

Also, remember that you have a trailer brake (or I hope you do!!), and you COULD hit that to engage trailer brakes without engaging truck brakes, but not too long. It takes some practice.

My trans temp never got above 175, the brakes weren't hot because they were seldom engaged, and folks went around me when they could.
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Old 05-26-2017, 04:10 PM   #19
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All I know is the engine and transmission in my Duramax hold speed quit well when descending a long down hill grade . I don't know if its called compression braking or not but it works good .

Also if you guys have a variable vane turbo on your diesel you have an exhaust brake you just need the proper programming to enable it like the newer trucks . Early Duramaxs don't have variable vane but the 05 and ups do .
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Old 05-26-2017, 04:42 PM   #20
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Great information in this thread. Thank you!
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