Are fuel additives cost effective

[babock]

Originally Posted by MR.M

No I don't . Nor did i say anything about equipment that came out before ethanol. I do believe what i see and have to do because of ethanol . even before ethanol it wouldn't take long for gas to turn to varnish .

Peace be with you brother but i don't believe a word you type

If I had known you were going to call me a liar, I would have taken pictures for you! Was as clean as the day it was made. Actually surprised me as well.

[MR.M]

Originally Posted by babock

If I had known you were going to call me a liar, I would have taken pictures for you! Was as clean as the day it was made. Actually surprised me as well.

Don't put words in my mouth ! i never called you a lair i just said I don't believe you . big difference

[aircommuter]

There is a lot more to ethanol than most people are exposed to. Corroded carburetors, fuel pumps and rusted out tanks. For me it has been disastrous. Generators, water pumps, tampers, air compressors, house boat. More than I can list. You can’t drain a fuel pump, draining a carburetor on a my boat requires removal, draining tanks requires boat removal, cost to R&R the house boat $3200.00. Tank replacement due to corrosion $16,500. Tanks capacity 312 gallons. It has been a big deal for marine and people don’t replace a boat that costs several hundred thousand dollars because they decided to put ethanol in the fuel.
So if anyone thinks it is internet lore they have their own axe to grind. By the way I never had hose or rubber parts problems as someone mentioned indicating that was the big thing. Little do you know.

[Qwkynuf]

Originally Posted by aircommuter

There is a lot more to ethanol than most people are exposed to. Corroded carburetors, fuel pumps and rusted out tanks. For me it has been disastrous. Generators, water pumps, tampers, air compressors, house boat. More than I can list. You can’t drain a fuel pump, draining a carburetor on a my boat requires removal, draining tanks requires boat removal, cost to R&R the house boat $3200.00. Tank replacement due to corrosion $16,500. Tanks capacity 312 gallons. It has been a big deal for marine and people don’t replace a boat that costs several hundred thousand dollars because they decided to put ethanol in the fuel.
So if anyone thinks it is internet lore they have their own axe to grind. By the way I never had hose or rubber parts problems as someone mentioned indicating that was the big thing. Little do you know.

Do you know what the primary ingredient in most gas treatments is? Ethanol. Why? Because it's hydroscopic. It actually binds to water in your fuel system and suspends it within the fuel so that it is consumed (along with the fuel) during the combustion cycle (instead of settling to the bottom of the tank to rust things out).

So... if you are avoiding fuel with ethanol, and then turning around and putting gas/treatment/injector cleaner/fuel system treatment into your tank.... well.....I'm not sure what to tell you.

That's all I am going to add to this thread though. It seems like we are veering a long way off topic, and I am starting to wonder if we are still talking about fuel treatment - or if it is all about Kool Aid now.

[babock]

Originally Posted by aircommuter

There is a lot more to ethanol than most people are exposed to. Corroded carburetors, fuel pumps and rusted out tanks. For me it has been disastrous. Generators, water pumps, tampers, air compressors, house boat. More than I can list. You can’t drain a fuel pump, draining a carburetor on a my boat requires removal, draining tanks requires boat removal, cost to R&R the house boat $3200.00. Tank replacement due to corrosion $16,500. Tanks capacity 312 gallons. It has been a big deal for marine and people don’t replace a boat that costs several hundred thousand dollars because they decided to put ethanol in the fuel.
So if anyone thinks it is internet lore they have their own axe to grind. By the way I never had hose or rubber parts problems as someone mentioned indicating that was the big thing. Little do you know.

Marine tanks have corroded even before ethanol came into existence. Most marine people who have issues with corrosion have themselves to blame for water entering their systems either through poor gaskets on fuel fillers, poor venting placement or using fuel from sources that they shouldn't. When my boats are on the water, I only buy fuel from dealers who are high volume sellers and cycle through their fuel fast. We have owned boats for the last 45 years and have NEVER had an issue with corrosion in our fuel systems. Of course if you have an ancient steel fuel tank, I am not surprised you had a corrosion issue. You don't have an ethanol problem...you have a too much water problem.

Ethanol is just the latest excuse people now blame for fuel issues. If ethanol wasn't around they would blame something else.

On boating forums I am on, you still have a few people that do the ethanol blame game. For the most part, 95% of the people come on that comment have recent models of engines(last 30 years) designed for ethanol and they say they never have an issue.

[HickoryC]

I had a diesel F250 for 7 years and never failed to add Ford (used to say Motorcraft) Cetane Booster. It called for 4 ounces per 25 gallons of fuel. Ford told me they sampled Cetane levels nationwide and found most were below optimal levels for their diesel engines. When I first bought the truck, it sometimes ran rough for a brief time after highway driving. Once the Cetane Booster was added, it never happened again.

[aircommuter]

Having been in the automotive business I know what is in the additives. When the fuel systems are vented the ethanol absorbs water from the air which has high moisture content as these boats are on the water 24/7, every houseboat on the lake has had problems when the ethanol was introduced. The tanks were pressure tested and no leaks so water didn’t come from outside except through the vents. The vents are not exposed to rain or lake splashing of course. Same problem showed up on my stationary fuel systems and my paving machine as well. Both carburetors on the houseboat and fuel pumps running on separate tanks also. Since carburetors are aluminum or pot metal they corrode also. My son has motorcycle/ quad runner repair business and people constantly have the same problem, he has 2 barrels 55g full of fuel he drains out every month. That all started when the ethanol came along.
If one is always using and replenishing fuel like cars normally do then it is not so much of a problem, or sealed like injected systems. But seasonal usage items with vented systems then it is.

[TitanMike]

Originally Posted by Qwkynuf

Anyway, he said that he had a Master's degree in chemical engineering and was a senior engineer working for Pennzoil, and that as far as HE knew, Z7 was just something that marketing made up.

Must have been a "new hire".

Z7 was Pennzoils marketing term for the additive ZDDP (Zinc Dialkyl Dithiophosphate) which was in every motor oil since the 40's. Every company had it's own name for it but it was an additive first developed in Union Oil Company's labs and licensed/sold to Lubrisol Corp that supplies almost all oil additives to the industry.

Zinc additives started to be removed from motor oils in 2004 as manufacturers demanded the removal of ANY product that could damage Catalytic Converters. The EPA was demanding longer and longer lifetimes on emission devices so this was what drove the manufacturer's demands.

Some other interesting "oil facts". When I was still working for Union Oil Co in the 60's their canning facility in Portland Oregon was "canning" oil for several famous brand names. Only difference in what went into the cans was the colorant added to the base oil. Union oil used a Purple Die and others got colors ranging from dark yellow/brown to shades of green. The plant would just feed the various companies pre-printed cans into the front and out would come cases ready for rail cars.

[babock]

Originally Posted by aircommuter

Having been in the automotive business I know what is in the additives. When the fuel systems are vented the ethanol absorbs water from the air which has high moisture content as these boats are on the water 24/7, every houseboat on the lake has had problems when the ethanol was introduced. The tanks were pressure tested and no leaks so water didn’t come from outside except through the vents. The vents are not exposed to rain or lake splashing of course. Same problem showed up on my stationary fuel systems and my paving machine as well. Both carburetors on the houseboat and fuel pumps running on separate tanks also. Since carburetors are aluminum or pot metal they corrode also. My son has motorcycle/ quad runner repair business and people constantly have the same problem, he has 2 barrels 55g full of fuel he drains out every month. That all started when the ethanol came along.
If one is always using and replenishing fuel like cars normally do then it is not so much of a problem, or sealed like injected systems. But seasonal usage items with vented systems then it is.

Ahhhh...the myth that fuel picks up water from the venting. That's been debunked for years.

https://www.yachtsurvey.com/myth_of_...fuel_tanks.htm

[TitanMike]

Originally Posted by Qwkynuf

One thing that I try to never do though, is to blindly take advice from someone who benefits financially from that advice.

Why would you advice from a source like that suspect?

[aircommuter]

If that is accurate then everyplace I bought fuel which spans 8 counties and numerous stations supplied water laden fuel. This would also apply to all my son’s customers and all the other houseboat owners.
There is an error is his assumption of humidity in the tanks however. Surprised no one picked up on that.

[babock]

Originally Posted by aircommuter

If that is accurate then everyplace I bought fuel which spans 8 counties and numerous stations supplied water laden fuel. This would also apply to all my son’s customers and all the other houseboat owners.
There is an error is his assumption of humidity in the tanks however. Surprised no one picked up on that.

And to top it off, you live in an area with fairly low humidity and not huge temp swings! And if your boat is sitting in the water, even lower temp swings!

[TitanMike]

Originally Posted by aircommuter

If that is accurate then everyplace I bought fuel which spans 8 counties and numerous stations supplied water laden fuel. This would also apply to all my son’s customers and all the other houseboat owners.
There is an error is his assumption of humidity in the tanks however. Surprised no one picked up on that.

For years, ethanol fuel or not, it's always been recommended that vented fuel tanks be kept as full as possible when parked or in the case of boats, moored.

As fuel is consumed humid air is drawn in. When it cools (nighttime or weather change, no difference) moisture WILL condense. Not an opinion, just simple physics.

As for modern automotive systems, tanks are essentially a sealed system with venting done through a vapor filter/canister.

[babock]

Originally Posted by TitanMike

For years, ethanol fuel or not, it's always been recommended that vented fuel tanks be kept as full as possible when parked or in the case of boats, moored.

The theory on that goes a number of ways and has changed over the years as well. I try to have my tanks as empty as possible by the end of the season so I will put fresh fuel starting the new season.

As far as water condensing from a temperature swing, you have to have a pretty large swing to condense much of the water out of the air. When a boat is in the water and you have a fairly large amount of gasoline the temp swing in the ambient would have to be huge to affect the temperature of the large volume of fuel in the tank.

Both aircommuter and I have our boats stored in the water relatively near each other. Mine is in Tahoe. Both places have fairly low humidity. Any water in the fuel from either of these places is ZERO issue.

This is going WAY off topic.

[aircommuter]

Temps here go between 20- 110f. I suppose that is low swing.

[babock]

Originally Posted by aircommuter

Temps here go between 20- 110f. I suppose that is low swing.

In one day? LOL


yep...pretty low!
https://www.google.com/search?q=coul...hrome&ie=UTF-8
And the fuel in the tank is likely a quarter of that swing since the boat is in the water.

And in the summer months, when it matters most, less than 40% humidity!

[aircommuter]

Oh but of course. I figured you could surmise from that. Average daily 50f.
Here is a fuel article for all to benefit from.
https://www.equipmentworld.com/e-10-...our-fuel-pump/

[Beachbourbon]

No

[babock]

Originally Posted by aircommuter

Oh but of course. I figured you could surmise from that. Average daily 50f.
Here is a fuel article for all to benefit from.
https://www.equipmentworld.com/e-10-...our-fuel-pump/

And of course it's ethanol that caused it LOL...sorry...it's water! And a Harley tank is a sealed tank so no more venting excuses.

[aircommuter]

What your missing is the same thing article about the condensation also missed. It only takes a small amount of condensation to cause fuel separation. Once the ethanol separates it sits on the bottom of course then the bacteria problem starts.
Read the whole article and do some searching about phase separation. Since most fuel systems don’t have floating pickups the water alcohol mix is pumped or gravity drained into the rest of the system. I have proven this with the standard Kolor-kut test, which of course you are familiar with.