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Old 05-04-2021, 09:15 AM   #1
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Extra equipment weights questions

Good morning folks.

Wanted to piggyback on my old thread about weights (link here).

I have a related situation now that has raised a few questions...

The wife has gone shopping on FB Marketplace and bought 2 kayaks:
- A single seat Pelican Trailblazer that weighs about 36#
- A tandem Crescent Splash II that weighs about 69#

Just a refresher:
- TT: 2017 Coachmen Apex Nano193BHS
- TV: 2017 Ford Explorer Platinum with HD tow package
- All weights/stickers/CAT results/etc in my thread linked above

She thinks that (in the old words of the USPS Express box) "if it fits, it ships". She thinks that we can throw a roof rack on the Explorer with the two kayaks, and ALSO throw an A-frame mount on the TT for a bike rack to carry our three bikes (wife, son, and mine).

I am very hesitant to say the least looking back at my weights. So, three simple "go/no-go" questions:
- Kayaks AND bikes
- Bikes alone
- Kayaks alone

I know the bike rack (looking at other posts) will be adding a lot of tongue weight too. But I'm not too excited about mounting it to the back of the TT and having the potential failure of the mount/rack/bumper causing a big issue either.

She thinks I'm being a negative/nervous Nelly... I'm more inclined to say we can rent kayaks/bikes when we go somewhere - AT LEAST until we get a new TV to replace the Explorer and get more cargo capacity.

Thoughts?
Thanks,
Steve
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Old 05-06-2021, 08:11 AM   #2
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Thank you for linking the other post - I read through it and based on your rough calculations indicating that you have ~165-276lbs of your available 1216lbs of payload left (after family and before 3 bikes/kayaks/etc). I'd say no. As you also have to consider the weight of the racks and mounts for the kayaks and bikes into the equation.


As a former Ford Explorer owner (2015 Sport), I'd say you're starting to ask more of the vehicle than what it was really designed for. With all the additional weight and wind-resistance you'll also have to stop for fuel much more frequently. Don't get me wrong, the Explorer is a great vehicle; but not meant for everything at the same time. I upgraded to a Ford Expedition and it was a much better experience; until I got a great deal on a new F150.
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Old 05-06-2021, 08:41 AM   #3
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Years ago, my family went through the same dilemma, although the rig set up was different. Like many families, we wanted to take all our toys with us on the trip...just in case we wanted them. However, I, as the guy who had to deal with the loading/unloading of the bikes, kayaks, etc, had to stop at one point, and ask, "Is it worth it?"

So, here's the deal - if you and your wife/family want to take your kayaks because that activity is a main agenda item on your trip, i.e. you are specifically planning on going kayaking for a significant portion of your trip, AND there are not kayaks available there to rent...then by all means, take your kayaks. Same thing regarding your bikes. Are you and your family going to specifically use those bikes for a significant portion of your trip, and are there no bikes available to rent?

My family took one trip with our 4 bikes on a rack (between the motorhome and towed vehicle), and 2 kayaks mounted on top of the Jeep. The bikes and kayaks only came off the racks because I realized that the family never wanted to actually use them, so I insisted that they use them, so that my effort and labor in loading/unloading them was not wasted.

Bottom line: Don't bring big toys like kayaks and bikes unless they are central/essential to your trip, and it is well worth the (your) labor and cost of bringing them.
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Old 05-06-2021, 08:54 AM   #4
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Thank you both for the tips/advice. I really appreciate your insight.

I knew the Explorer wouldn't be ideal when we bought it, but I'm slowly learning. We got it with the tow package but had never towed anything besides a little utility trailer before (or camped), so we figured with the tow package, we were good (not!). So our adventure into camping and towing and weights from the other thread was very eye opening.

I think we are still going to use the Explorer+TT setup for a little while, then move up to a 4-door truck and maybe keep the Explorer as the daily driver. I had even mentioned to my wife about taking two vehicles on trips - TV+TT, and follow fehicle with all the toys/gear. She said that sounds costly. Do others take two vehicles?

Thanks again (and thanks to you and your wife JACA for your Service - 4 LEO members in the family and the thin blue line doesn't get the respect it deserves).
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Old 05-06-2021, 09:01 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by SickPup404 View Post
Thank you both for the tips/advice. I really appreciate your insight.

I knew the Explorer wouldn't be ideal when we bought it, but I'm slowly learning. We got it with the tow package but had never towed anything besides a little utility trailer before (or camped), so we figured with the tow package, we were good (not!). So our adventure into camping and towing and weights from the other thread was very eye opening.

I think we are still going to use the Explorer+TT setup for a little while, then move up to a 4-door truck and maybe keep the Explorer as the daily driver. I had even mentioned to my wife about taking two vehicles on trips - TV+TT, and follow fehicle with all the toys/gear. She said that sounds costly. Do others take two vehicles?

Thanks again (and thanks to you and your wife JACA for your Service - 4 LEO members in the family and the thin blue line doesn't get the respect it deserves).
I would say if your destination is not too far, and you really want to bring your kayaks, bikes, and other toys, then by all means, take two vehicles - the tow vehicle, and an extra. We used to do this when we lived in the Atlanta area, and we would go camping for the weekend at a place about 45 minutes away from home. Taking an extra vehicle gave us more flexibility and options, but we wouldn't do that for a destination/trip that was farther away.
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Old 05-06-2021, 11:51 AM   #6
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We did 2 vehicles several times over a couple years. TV-PUP and then me on the HD so we could camp and have the bike with us. These trips were only about 60 miles or so from home for Bike Week. We ended up getting a toy hauler so we could travel farther away with just one vehicle. It's much nicer for any distance to just have one vehicle but for shorter trips 2 wasn't that bad.
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Old 05-06-2021, 04:24 PM   #7
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Have you had a sit down discussion with your wife (pad and paper in hand) and explained the weight issues and safety concerns? She may not realize the implication until you've get a flat tire due to weight, trouble controlling the rig due to extra mounts and equipment, and safety concerns if things fall off going down the road and hit someone behind you.

We see lots of people traveling with two vehicles. Some people carry passengers and some equipment in the other vehicle.

You probably should try a couple of trips with no extra kayaks and bikes so that you get an idea of what you'll need for longer trips. Once you know how things handle, you'll be able to tell if the modifications affect your towing.
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Old 05-06-2021, 04:43 PM   #8
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Had that discussion this afternoon. We’ll be doing the two vehicle trip when needed, rent kayaks or bikes on longer distances, and best of all.......

I get to go truck shopping! Not right now, but likely within a year...

I got a wishlist head start:
F150, 3.6 EcoBoost, SuperCrew, 5.5’ bed, tow package

Thanks all for the advice and tips!
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Old 05-06-2021, 05:21 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by SickPup404 View Post
Had that discussion this afternoon. We’ll be doing the two vehicle trip when needed, rent kayaks or bikes on longer distances, and best of all.......

I get to go truck shopping! Not right now, but likely within a year...

I got a wishlist head start:
F150, 3.6 EcoBoost, SuperCrew, 5.5’ bed, tow package

Thanks all for the advice and tips!

Glad you had a discussion; and although inconvenient, two vehicles is probably the best/safest option right now. and glad that you got the go ahead to go truck shopping!


I picked up my 2021 F150 last week, and so far I love it. While I miss the maneuverability of my explorer; the driving experience of the F150 is so much better. I ended up getting the 3.5 Powerboost hybrid model, even though it has less towing capacity and payload than the V6 EB or V8 due to the larger fuel tank (30gal) and it being a hybrid. However, having the 2KW onboard generator is nice to have as a backup for running some power to the trailer in a pinch.



While Ford only lists the maximum payloads available on each F150 model on the website - you can use a guide such as this: https://www.f150gen14.com/forum/atta...ecs-pdf.10601/ or (google the document) and it will give you an option by option breakdown of how payload is impacted.
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Old 05-06-2021, 05:29 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SickPup404 View Post
Had that discussion this afternoon. We’ll be doing the two vehicle trip when needed, rent kayaks or bikes on longer distances, and best of all.......

I get to go truck shopping! Not right now, but likely within a year...

I got a wishlist head start:
F150, 3.6 EcoBoost, SuperCrew, 5.5’ bed, tow package

Thanks all for the advice and tips!
Two things.
Try and get the Max Tow package. Some of the great perks is a 36 gallon fuel tank and integrated brake controller.
And remember, bling trim levels lower payload capacities. Check every driver's door yellow payload sticker. Actually weighing it, is more accurate but the sticker weight is a good place to start since it should be close.
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Old 05-07-2021, 06:51 AM   #11
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Awesome, thanks all for the links and tips!
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Old 05-07-2021, 07:03 AM   #12
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I'm not a big fan of the "weight Police" having towed a 9,000 lb. 5er with a Tundra all across the country and through every mountain range for 30,000 miles. Published weight requirements are the result of actual engineering data tempered by product liability lawyers. Adding a couple of kayaks and a few bikes wouldn't bother me a bit. I installed a Genny Go designed for RV bumpers to hold my 100lb. 3,500 watt inverter generator for boondocking. I'm perfectly comfortable adding 10% to any published number. YMMV...
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Old 05-07-2021, 09:54 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by DauntlessFox View Post
Glad you had a discussion; and although inconvenient, two vehicles is probably the best/safest option right now. and glad that you got the go ahead to go truck shopping!


I picked up my 2021 F150 last week, and so far I love it. While I miss the maneuverability of my explorer; the driving experience of the F150 is so much better. I ended up getting the 3.5 Powerboost hybrid model, even though it has less towing capacity and payload than the V6 EB or V8 due to the larger fuel tank (30gal) and it being a hybrid. However, having the 2KW onboard generator is nice to have as a backup for running some power to the trailer in a pinch.



While Ford only lists the maximum payloads available on each F150 model on the website - you can use a guide such as this: https://www.f150gen14.com/forum/atta...ecs-pdf.10601/ or (google the document) and it will give you an option by option breakdown of how payload is impacted.
You don't have the big fuel tank. The big tank is 36 gallons. Your extra weight is the hybrid battery and generator. Also, 2kw is the smallest one offered and really won't power much. I think as a TV, you might regret the purchase.
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Old 05-07-2021, 10:02 PM   #14
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… I get to go truck shopping! Not right now, but likely within a year. …
Delay that if you can. It's a seller's market and not likely to improve real soon.

Edit: add tow mirrors to your list. As dumb as it sounds, they're not part of any tow package.
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Old 05-07-2021, 10:04 PM   #15
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… Try and get the Max Tow package. …
The MaxTow package on '21 models defaults to a V8. Make sure you're getting an EcoBoost, if that is your intent.
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Old 05-08-2021, 07:19 AM   #16
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You don't have the big fuel tank. The big tank is 36 gallons. Your extra weight is the hybrid battery and generator. Also, 2kw is the smallest one offered and really won't power much. I think as a TV, you might regret the purchase.

Thanks for your input, but I think you misread my post I said that the hybrid has the "larger 30gal" fuel tank; not the extended range 36gal.
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Old 05-08-2021, 07:35 AM   #17
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... Published weight requirements are the result of actual engineering data tempered by product liability lawyers...
No sir. Published weight requirements are limited by engineers and they are required to pass the standard: SAE J2807.

When that test was adopted and used by all the manufacturers it actually dropped the 'published weight requirements' for the Tundra because it couldn't pass the test with numbers 'allowed' by the manufacturer previously. (somewhere around 2012/2013/2014 for the Tundra) -I guess their product liability lawyers were more concerned with bragging...
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Old 05-08-2021, 08:21 AM   #18
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No sir. Published weight requirements are limited by engineers and they are required to pass the standard: SAE J2807.



When that test was adopted and used by all the manufacturers it actually dropped the 'published weight requirements' for the Tundra because it couldn't pass the test with numbers 'allowed' by the manufacturer previously. (somewhere around 2012/2013/2014 for the Tundra) -I guess their product liability lawyers were more concerned with bragging...


Required is a strong word for this, as all manufacturers voluntarily agreed to use the standard most started in 2015 Toyota started before that most the other companies. As many people have stated payload would be the most limiting factor. Knowing how and why a test is done provides people the opportunity to make educated decisions.
One of the limiting factors of the tow standard is the acceleration test. It’s why I felt perfectly fine getting a 3:73 on my Ram instead of the 4:10. Not only is mountain driving less than 10% probably less than 5% of my towing the actual part of going up or down the very long and steep grades. Second having towed up some steep grades thru many mountain ranges with a 3:55 and 3:73 I made it to the top no problem Click image for larger version

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Old 05-08-2021, 11:52 AM   #19
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Required is a strong word for this, as all manufacturers voluntarily agreed to use the standard most started in 2015 Toyota started before that most the other companies. As many people have stated payload would be the most limiting factor. Knowing how and why a test is done provides people the opportunity to make educated decisions.
One of the limiting factors of the tow standard is the acceleration test. It’s why I felt perfectly fine getting a 3:73 on my Ram instead of the 4:10. Not only is mountain driving less than 10% probably less than 5% of my towing the actual part of going up or down the very long and steep grades. Second having towed up some steep grades thru many mountain ranges with a 3:55 and 3:73 I made it to the top no problem Attachment 253899Attachment 253900Attachment 253901
It's hard to tell exactly where you are going...you are correct that the manufacturers agreed to the standard (taking the tests) but make no mistake, they are required to pass the test.

The acceleration tests are the least important (as they pertain to speed)...the vehicles ability to shed the heat needed to create the energy to do so is more important. Handling and repeated grade stopping under load tests are more important to me.
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Old 05-08-2021, 04:16 PM   #20
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It's hard to tell exactly where you are going...you are correct that the manufacturers agreed to the standard (taking the tests) but make no mistake, they are required to pass the test.



The acceleration tests are the least important (as they pertain to speed)...the vehicles ability to shed the heat needed to create the energy to do so is more important. Handling and repeated grade stopping under load tests are more important to me.


My point was that this test far exceeds what 98% of people towing will experience. I included the pic of basically two identical vehicles, only difference was the gearing. In my experience and my opinion reason the 3:73 gearing has a considerably less towing ability. Is because most likely it was unable to accelerate fast enough. In the given time of the test. However if normal driving condition existed acceleration would most likely continue until it got to the speed limit. As stated in an earlier post many people feel that there is a safety margin built into most limits. In this test manufacturers are allowed to manipulate the test some but the results MUST favor the consumer not the manufacturer. Finally the standard was created to level the playing field. So say Toyota couldn’t claim a 100k towing capacity because it towed the shuttle across a bridge. While say Durmax claimed 25k climbing a steep grade on a hot day.
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