Gas VS Diesel

[acadianbob]

The reasons "the feds" have that equipment on the diesels are air pollution and the particulates are carcinogenic.

[DouglasReid]

Originally Posted by Slow1

You can be fined $5k and the shop that did it for you can be fined $25K and there is also a reward for turning people in,

Great Shades of Nazi Germany: neighbors informing on neighbors; children informing on parents; brother informing on brother.

Quite a Utopian society you are describing.

I am curious where these "rewards" are though. Ive never heard of that odious practice, and you don't say at all where you are located.

[DouglasReid]

Originally Posted by mwdilday

To each his own. I can buy Blue DEF for $10 per 2 1/2 gallons. That is $4/gallon. According to Blue DEF website they say that DEF consumption is 2-4% of Diesel consumption. I get 18 MPG not towing. So in 500,000 miles I am going to burn almost 30,000 gallons. If DEF consumption is 2% (not towing) based on the low end of DEF website and other websites say it IS 2% I will burn 600 gallons of DEF. At $4/gallon that is a total cost of $2,400. Last I heard it costs about $2,500 to delete the DEF from the truck. If anything happens that causes me to have to sell the truck, health or financial, that is going to decrease the resale value and decrease the number of potential buyers. I would never sell it without disclosing that it has been deleted. On top of that any state inspection that might catch it now or later if laws change is going to be a big fine and a re-install expense. It makes no financial sense to delete the DEF.

What your analysis failed to take into account is the cost of the additional diesel, injected through the 9th injector on DEF equipped trucks.

Additionally there are longevity benefits to deleting the DEF and related systems so if you keep the truck long term, it pays huge dividends in those areas as well

[ronheater70]

Originally Posted by DouglasReid

What your analysis failed to take into account is the cost of the additional diesel, injected through the 9th injector on DEF equipped trucks.

Additionally there are longevity benefits to deleting the DEF and related systems so if you keep the truck long term, it pays huge dividends in those areas as well

Then theres another benefit no one is discussing.. It's just plain fun! I mean an 8K truck that can hold its own with a modern pony car with a 4K-5K boat in tow is phenomenal.

Folks have been doing this for decades. Most people that want a nice performance gain on a normally asporated V8 would add an intake and Headers and get rid of the Cat system..

Heck Why even have 200 HP cars, since they can pretty much double most posted state speed limits, You know, Break the law!

SOme states do emissions testing, some counties In certain states do it.. My county in My state does it, but not for Diesel Vehicles. Im actually happy with the performance of my truck and the ONLY reason I would delete is because the emissions crap starts causing issues. The performance and mileage gains would just be a benefit!

[spock123]

Originally Posted by mwdilday

To each his own. I can buy Blue DEF for $10 per 2 1/2 gallons. That is $4/gallon. According to Blue DEF website they say that DEF consumption is 2-4% of Diesel consumption. I get 18 MPG not towing. So in 500,000 miles I am going to burn almost 30,000 gallons. If DEF consumption is 2% (not towing) based on the low end of DEF website and other websites say it IS 2% I will burn 600 gallons of DEF. At $4/gallon that is a total cost of $2,400. Last I heard it costs about $2,500 to delete the DEF from the truck. If anything happens that causes me to have to sell the truck, health or financial, that is going to decrease the resale value and decrease the number of potential buyers. I would never sell it without disclosing that it has been deleted. On top of that any state inspection that might catch it now or later if laws change is going to be a big fine and a re-install expense. It makes no financial sense to delete the DEF.

The emissions delete on my Silverado cost $1400 dollars so I came out ahead. There is one loophole in the emissions law, if you race your diesel you are allowed to delete the emissions. Also I have been to different dealers to trade and no problems with the deleted emissions. I had no problems buying the DEF but I was having lots of problems. It’s no fun being outside of Tok Alaska pulling a fifth wheel and the light comes on that says you are going to be put in limp mode because you have poor quality DEF fluid. I had not installed any DEF fluid in two thousand miles. The closest GM dealer was in Fairbanks about three hundred miles away and no warranty on the truck. The light went out after a hundred miles but not before scaring the dickens out of me and DW. My truck has a little more power now and gets a little better fuel mileage plus when you change the oil the oil looks like oil when you pull the dipstick out. In the county I live in the emissions is not checked, I have lived in this county for forty years and no plans to ever move. Buy what makes you happy

[Slow1]

Originally Posted by DouglasReid

Great Shades of Nazi Germany: neighbors informing on neighbors; children informing on parents; brother informing on brother.



Quite a Utopian society you are describing.



I am curious where these "rewards" are though. Ive never heard of that odious practice, and you don't say at all where you are located.

I live in Washington state but that has no bearing, it's a federal law not a local one. Talking about our "great" society gets us to close to politics and I would like not to go there. I belive that we can all have diffenent points of view and still have a nice calm rational conversation.

[Slow1]

Originally Posted by ronheater70

Then theres another benefit no one is discussing.. It's just plain fun! I mean an 8K truck that can hold its own with a modern pony car with a 4K-5K boat in tow is phenomenal.

Folks have been doing this for decades. Most people that want a nice performance gain on a normally asporated V8 would add an intake and Headers and get rid of the Cat system..

Heck Why even have 200 HP cars, since they can pretty much double most posted state speed limits, You know, Break the law!

SOme states do emissions testing, some counties In certain states do it.. My county in My state does it, but not for Diesel Vehicles. Im actually happy with the performance of my truck and the ONLY reason I would delete is because the emissions crap starts causing issues. The performance and mileage gains would just be a benefit!

I had a buddy that had a dodge 2500 4wd that could beat the pants off of some of other friends, one had an SRT8 and the other an SRT10, he even embarrassed a few hopped up Imprezas.
pound for pound diesels have always had a torque advantage over gas. It's just recently in last several decades that we put the same focus on diesel tecnology for the passenger market. When was the last time you seen a gas powered piece of heavy equipment?

[DouglasReid]

Originally Posted by Slow1

I live in Washington state but that has no bearing, it's a federal law not a local one. Talking about our "great" society gets us to close to politics and I would like not to go there. I belive that we can all have diffenent points of view and still have a nice calm rational conversation.

Im all for a nice calm rational conversation as well.

BUT, when you talk about citizens collecting Rewards for "informing" on other citizens not following some federal mandate I did equate that practice to Nazi Germany. In fact it was practiced in Communist USSR and in this very nation by Senator Joe McCarthy.

Your post gave the clear impression you disapproved of the practice of deleting any emissions from diesel trucks.

Remember it was you who broached the subject of fines for having deleted trucks and for shops who deleting them.

You bolstered your position with the fines and that persons were paid to inform on their others for deleting. It is that odious practice I took umbrage with.

[aeblank]

POT is illegal federally, too.

I'll delete when fixing it is a similar cost to deleting. Interested in the $1400 delete though.....

[ronheater70]

Originally Posted by DouglasReid

Im all for a nice calm rational conversation as well.

BUT, when you talk about citizens collecting Rewards for "informing" on other citizens not following some federal mandate I did equate that practice to Nazi Germany. In fact it was practiced in Communist USSR and in this very nation by Senator Joe McCarthy.

Your post gave the clear impression you disapproved of the practice of deleting any emissions from diesel trucks.

Remember it was you who broached the subject of fines for having deleted trucks and for shops who deleting them.

You bolstered your position with the fines and that persons were paid to inform on their others for deleting. It is that odious practice I took umbrage with.

Around here there are so many deleted trucks, AND business's with Business License that Pay taxes, Ie, a Legal Business that openly specialize in it that if there were to be issues Im sure they would have had it by now. I mean they openly advertise with signage and everything.

[D W]

Originally Posted by DouglasReid

BUT, when you talk about citizens collecting Rewards for "informing" on other citizens not following some federal mandate I did equate that practice to Nazi Germany. In fact it was practiced in Communist USSR and in this very nation by Senator Joe McCarthy.

It is still practiced in the USA today! The are numerous "rewards" offered by both State and Federal entities for information leading to the apprehension, arrest and conviction of person or persons suspected of violating the law. Up until about 10 years ago all US Post Offices were required to display FBI "WANTED" posters with the rewards listed.

[ronheater70]

Originally Posted by D W

It is still practiced in the USA today! The are numerous "rewards" offered by both State and Federal entities for information leading to the apprehension, arrest and conviction of person or persons suspected of violating the law. Up until about 10 years ago all US Post Offices were required to display FBI "WANTED" posters with the rewards listed.

While deleting emissions doesnt raise to the crime of kidnapping. murder, etc.. I have to admit I would get a little nervous if I see a picture on a billboard (they advertise on billboards here!) of Bubba, Wanted for deleting his 2011 Duramax and adding a tuner.. Considered to be annoyed and fast as hell. LOL

[DouglasReid]

Originally Posted by ronheater70

While deleting emissions doesnt raise to the crime of kidnapping. murder, etc.. I have to admit I would get a little nervous if I see a picture on a billboard (they advertise on billboards here!) of Bubba, Wanted for deleting his 2011 Duramax and adding a tuner.. Considered to be annoyed and fast as hell. LOL

hahahaha

LOTS of deleted trucks here too, most in fact I would say. I went looking for a truck last year after losing one to a Bankruptcy and I could not find one that had not been deleted in either LA, MS or TX

I hardly think deleting a truck rises to the felony level but the world can go topsy turvy in a hurry.

I can buy all the alcohol I want, Nobody checks my ID, BUT , IF I go to purchase any tobacco product, I HAVE to show my ID. What is wrong with this picture?

[timfromma]

<<< Proud owner of an un deleted diesel who intends to stay that way.

[DouglasReid]

Originally Posted by timfromma

<<< Proud owner of an un deleted diesel who intends to stay that way.

They have Emissions Testing up there in MA, Tim?

If so, I would be the exact same.

[ronheater70]

Originally Posted by timfromma

<<< Proud owner of an un deleted diesel who intends to stay that way.

I plan to as well.. I only have 4K on my truck now after 4 or 5 months of ownership. Im very pleased with the performance, I will not hesitate to delete however if i "need" to in order to keep a level of reliability and ward of issues with malfunctioning/ clogging emissions equipment after Warranty is up..I believe this stuff is fairly reliable at this point.

[timfromma]

Originally Posted by DouglasReid

They have Emissions Testing up there in MA, Tim?



If so, I would be the exact same.

I would remain un deleted even without emissions testing.

[Mr. Jiggles]

They do test diesels for emissions here in Mass but I believe that it is done every other year as you get your yearly inspection. Personally, I never deleted a truck but know plenty who have. I purposely bought an older diesel truck that did not have emissions or need DEF just because of the problems that some manufacturers have with emissions motors. I now have a 2018 Cummins with full emissions and I'm not going to touch it - at least for the foreseeable future

[Slow1]

Originally Posted by DouglasReid

Im all for a nice calm rational conversation as well.



BUT, when you talk about citizens collecting Rewards for "informing" on other citizens not following some federal mandate I did equate that practice to Nazi Germany. In fact it was practiced in Communist USSR and in this very nation by Senator Joe McCarthy.



Your post gave the clear impression you disapproved of the practice of deleting any emissions from diesel trucks.



Remember it was you who broached the subject of fines for having deleted trucks and for shops who deleting them.



You bolstered your position with the fines and that persons were paid to inform on their others for deleting. It is that odious practice I took umbrage with.

Easy, easy, put that dog on a leash. I originally mentioned that in my experiance it is unusual for automotive forums to allow threads about removing emission devises, and then a gentlemanly conversation ensued. I just highlighted the posible out comes. If you want to delete that is your prerogative. If you don't like that the goverment offering rewards that is your prerogative. If you don't like what I have posted that is your perogative. Wanted posters have been hanging up in sheriff's offices long before we came along. Not to mention bounty hunting is big business. Just to clear the air, my stance on the subject is thus, I'm waiting for the diesel industry to get it right before I buy a newer truck. Sooner or later manufacturers are going to figure it out and then your are going to see stock diesel powered vehicle outperform the older modded ones. Like in the gasoline world emissions will force efficiency and comsumers will demand performace and manufacturers will find were the happy medium intersects.

[spock123]

In 150,000 miles on my 2012 Silverado I haven’t had any mechanical problems with the truck. Other than glow plugs which was covered under warranty. I have had lots of problems with DEF, the DEF tank, sensors, being in limp mode and being told you are going in limp mode. If I had had no trouble with the DEF the $1400 dollars would still be in my bank account. I hope this never happens to anyone what happened to me. The DEF problems messed up our trip to Alaska as I didn’t know if I was going in limp mode someplace far from help, not much traffic on Highway 37. In Anchorage I was taking the truck in for a oil change at the GM dealership, for some reason I really got on the fuel pedal and I couldn’t even see the cars behind me for all the black smoke, I thought I was rolling coal. I never did find out what that was. The GM dealership had no idea what was causing that. They said they would have to keep the truck for five days. The reason I deleted the emissions was all the problems I was having, it was not just to spend $1400 bucks.