I'm submitting to the weight police!

[BandJCarm]

I can understand the argument that "I own this half ton and I need to justify pulling a fifth wheel with it"...(understand it...not agree with it).

But when a man says he wants a fifth wheel and honestly asks what the best truck would be to pull it....and folks try to justify telling him that vehicle should be a half ton.....we'll that's a horse of an entirely different color!!!

[Hclarkx]

Originally Posted by BandJCarm

I can understand the argument that "I own this half ton and I need to justify pulling a fifth wheel with it"...(understand it...not agree with it).

But when a man says he wants a fifth wheel and honestly asks what the best truck would be to pull it....and folks try to justify telling him that vehicle should be a half ton.....we'll that's a horse of an entirely different color!!!

Agree fully. My solution was a 2500 HD gas with no payload or tow upgrades pulling a 32' 5er at max 9000#. I'm usually at about 70% of payload and 70% of tow capacity. Because I have no payload upgrades the rid is fairly comfortable without the 5er and very comfortable with it. Only downsides are size and mpg and cost though the cost increment over a 1500 was surprisingly small. Often we park in the outer reaches but the walk into the store is good exercise. At 10K miles/year the gas doesn't hurt much.

Being at 70% of payload gives me a 900# margin. This came in handy when I needed to carry an extra 50 gallons of water in the bed of the truck for a 10 day off-the-grid stay. This and a generator and fuel left me with a 350# margin.

[B and B]

Running a F250 with camper package. Upgraded springs. I find this truck runs smoother than the F 150 I had LT tires on. They relied on soft tires for smooth ride. The F250 runs nice and smooth.

[lbrjet]

I call it parking in the north 40.


2010 F250 5.4L 3.73
2011 Flagstaff 831FKBSS
Equal-i-zer 4pt 12K

[Hclarkx]

Originally Posted by B and B

Running a F250 with camper package. Upgraded springs. I find this truck runs smoother than the F 150 I had LT tires on. They relied on soft tires for smooth ride. The F250 runs nice and smooth.

Agree, there's nothing harder riding than a half ton with overloads. I think it's the extra weight of the larger trucks that helps the ride.

lbr .... North 40 nails it. Though once in Carmel, CA the only empty space within a half mile of town was a parallel on a corner in the center of town. Easy to get into but I was over the markers by inches at both ends. Didn't get a ticket.

[Wankrl7]

Your tongue weight is 1440lbs. Your max payload is 1359 lbs. Is this your truck with full fuel and ready to camp?

You are over your trucks tongue weight rating by 440 lbs.

Without weight bars your rear axle GAWR is exceeded.

I would say you need more truck.

[Major Malfunction]

Originally Posted by nrkmann

The manufacturers ratings are such that they will not be sued.

Actually, they are so YOU don't get sued.

Engineers spend a LOT of time coming up with these formulas and now there are actual criteria and tests to rate towing capacity amongst manufacturers. In most cases, it's not the motor, the tranny, or the frame that cannot handle it; its the brakes and tires. Just because you can PULL 175% or even 200% over the rating, there is no rational reason you should be doing it.

The vehicle reaction times will be slower and the ability to stop will be slower and longer. And if you need to make an emergency maneuver, there is a significant increase in instability that can lead to jackknifing, etc. Doesn't matter if the trailer has its own brakes. When the tow vehicle is influencing the trailer's direction of travel, it needs to be the BOSS...periiod. The tail is going to be wagging the dog. When you are pulling, you are the boss, When she's pushing, you hope you have enough airbags. Things happen out there and you only need to be doing 25 mph and you don't have enough tow vehicle to prevent killing someone or ending up turned over in a ditch.

I'm not trying to preach, but being an engineer for a living, it's shocking how much I see of people exceeding design limitations with no data to back it up. Applying physics to engineering doctrine is not as simple as driving a couple of miles and saying "Yeah, this will work". Engineers don't do it this way and truck owners should not be doing it either.

[sgtSmokdU]

Originally Posted by thebrakeman

Not enough info in the OP, and I'm feeling too lazy to see it came in a later post. But if the F150 is going to be used, the WDH is not set up correctly.
Front "Steer" weight:
Truck only = 3500
With trailer, no WDH = 3060
With trailer, with WDH = 3320

That 3320 should be as close to 3500 as possible (back to stock front loading). You need to transfer a LOT more weight, which will also help remove some weight from the rear axle, helping with some cushion to the rear GAWR.

Thank you all for the responses.


I had purposely waited to respond to the thread for 2 reasons. 1) i wanted to see how my DW did on her trip and 2) I wanted to have a chance to pull the trailer further than 20-30 miles around the house.

I'm quite proud of the job that my DW did with her first trip, according to everyone with her she did an amazing job, with absolutely zero problems getting there and back home. I did add another washer to the hitch, which should've added a little more weight to the steer axle. She was able to tell a difference in the way it all handled. The only extra weight that was added from the time she left my house was the three adults that were picked up in AR and then on the trip back home she had added a Champion generator that was purchased near her campground. She maintained her speed between 60-65 mph which garnered a whopping 10.6 mpg.

A couple of days afterwards I struck out from north Bama to the TTs final resting spot in Spanish Fort, AL. I started off running 65mph with a few times running 75, I passed several 18 wheelers and had many pass me, without any incidents. I wouldn't be afraid to strike out across the country pulling this trailer with this truck although I would see if I couldn't distribute the weight a little better.

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[sgtSmokdU]

I meant to add a pic of said generator.



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[B and B]

75 mph is 10 mph over most tire ratings. Do you have some of those new ST tires that have the extra rating?

[sgtSmokdU]

Originally Posted by B and B

75 mph is 10 mph over most tire ratings. Do you have some of those new ST tires that have the extra rating?

I'm not sure how new they are but yes, they are stamped on the side with 75mph max speed.

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[sgtSmokdU]

Originally Posted by nrkmann

p.s. Why are you hooked up to tow with the TV antenna up? That should be part of your pre-tow checklist. Before we move an inch we have two to four walk arounds and interior checks. My wife and I always see things that the other missed. It just make you safer, the trip easier, and cheaper.

I'm not sure if you were referring to me about the TV antenna, but as far as I know, my antenna doesn't move extend or retract.

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[Hersbird]

Just curious how the by the book, engineers need to be 100% trusted, the letter of the law towing guide needs to be followed, crowd get past the Ford F150-F450 60 sq ft frontal area limit for bumper pulled trailers? The trailer the OP posted about is at least 72 sq ft, and I bet most of the 5ers around here are over the 75 sq ft limit as well for those. I agree engineers need to be trusted but I don't believe engineers are the only folk involved in what number Ford puts out.

[Major Malfunction]

Originally Posted by Hersbird

Just curious how the by the book, engineers need to be 100% trusted, the letter of the law towing guide needs to be followed, crowd get past the Ford F150-F450 60 sq ft frontal area limit for bumper pulled trailers? The trailer the OP posted about is at least 72 sq ft, and I bet most of the 5ers around here are over the 75 sq ft limit as well for those. I agree engineers need to be trusted but I don't believe engineers are the only folk involved in what number Ford puts out.

I'm an engineer for one of the biggest defense contractors in the world. We build stuff with limits or "do not exceed" for a reason. Why? Because people will die if it's not used as intended, expected, or beyond limitations. We've tested it and engineered safety margins in to it. We know that the safety margin drops dramatically if you go beyond a certain point. The laws of physics cannot be broken casually like a 55 mph speed limit! They are real and when you try to mess with them, the wheels fall off quicker than a Chinese motorcycle.

I'm not familiar with those frontal area numbers, but I would imagine it has to do with wind load at speed. Does it mean from frame rails upward to where the front starts sloping back? Or is it from the top of the tailgate of the tow vehicle to top of the trailer since this is realistically where most forces are applied? If you go with full frontal, that's probably 8 x 8 ish and at the 60sq ft mark. I would imagine most travel trailers would fall into this limit these days given the sloped fronts, etc.

As far as the forces applied, think of it this way. Ever carry a piece of sheetrock or plywood? I can carry 2 sheets at a time. And then on days with a breeze, carrying one sheet is an adventure! If its a 12 foot piece, you better get 2 people. My point is that the slightest amount of wind load influences a flat surface more than you can imagine.

Same goes for the frontal area of the trailer. Get it up to 60mph and that is a LOT of wind load pushing on the tongue and influencing the back end of the tow vehicle. Have too big a "sail" area and you end up with the tail wagging the dog. When you increase the frontal size, you increase the forces exponentially and you can go fast enough where that force is exceeding the influence the tow vehicle has to keep the trailer on track.

In the end, physics and the math behind it are constants since the days Newton put them to paper. Calling BS, ignoring them, or using "gut feeling" does not make them go away. If the manufacturer says "don't do this", as an engineer I would tend to agree.

I respectively say, do what YOU think is best for YOU and YOUR equipment. Safe travels everyone!

[KingFisher]

The frontal area deal in ford's towing guide confused me when I was looking at a Ford. It says

Frontal
area
is the total area in
square feet that a
moving vehicle and
trailer exposes to
air resistance. The
chart shows the
limitations that must
be considered in
selecting a vehicle/
trailer combination.
Exceeding these
limitations may
significantly reduce
the performance of
your towing vehicle.


F-150
Base Vehicle Frontal Area (36.6 sq. ft.)
Without Trailer Tow Package or Payload Package
55 sq. ft.
Any Powertrain with Trailer Towing Package or Payload Package and
Trailer Towing Ratings Between 5,001 and 7,700 lbs.
60 sq. ft.
Any Powertrain with Trailer Towing Package or Payload Package and
Trailer Towing Ratings 7,701 lbs. and Greater
75 sq. ft.
All 5th-Wheel and Gooseneck Applications with Any Powertrain with
Trailer Towing Package or Payload Package
F-250/F-350/F-450/F-550 Super Duty
75 sq. ft.
All 5th-Wheel and Gooseneck Applications
60 sq. ft.
All Other Applications


I see nothing like that in the chevy towing guide.

[325BH]

Also, the frontal area in Ford's towing guide allows more for a 5er than the TT. Not sure what is going on there. Without an explanation, it makes no sense.

I see this discussion has the engineer's panties in a bunch... LOL.


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[Major Malfunction]

In this case, at least its only saying your performance will be degraded if you exceed these recommendations. If you are using an anti-sway AND weight distribution, you would most likely negate a lot of the influence of the frontal area. That being said, every trailer is different in terms of frontal area, wind resistance, and drag and therefore, will influence the tow vehicle differently. Even things like humidity and elevation will make a difference since the density of air changes can change dramatically per the weather environment. Much like how a baseball jumps out of one stadium and is a warning track fly ball at another.

[emm-dee]

[QUOTE=Major Malfunction;1233903
..............

In the end, physics and the math behind it are constants since the days Newton put them to paper. Calling BS, ignoring them, or using "gut feeling" does not make them go away. If the manufacturer says "don't do this", as an engineer I would tend to agree.
.............

[/QUOTE]

That's advice many are reluctant to follow.

[Major Malfunction]

Originally Posted by 325BH

Also, the frontal area in Ford's towing guide allows more for a 5er than the TT. Not sure what is going on there. Without an explanation, it makes no sense.

I see this discussion has the engineer's panties in a bunch... LOL.


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Without intimate knowledge, I would think its related to the fulcrum point and how the weight is leveraged. A TT is basically a balancing act and your fulcrum is out past the end of your truck. Hitch physics make some of that come forward towards your truck, but only so much. In the end, you have a dynamic load farther outside your center of gravity on a TT than on a 5th wheel which has its fulcrum more or less over the rear axle.

So that would mean the forces exerted by the 5th wheel are countered more efficiently by the tow vehicle since they are closer to the center of mass of the tow vehicle. Which is also why the same truck has a 5th wheel tow capacity significantly higher than towing a TT. Same truck but different physics being applied. A TT hitch can only handle so much weight and stress since it has to pick up the slack for being away from the center of mass. It's acting as your "elbow" and the trailer is in your fist. You can only handle so much weight before your elbow cannot control the weight.

A 5th wheel is much like if you put the weight on your shoulders rather than carrying in your hand. Its easier to control something closer to your body than it is further out. You can control more weight if you can get it closer to your center of mass just as much as its easier to counteract wind force if you can get your weight into it vs just your hand.

Cranes are no different. Once the boom starts going out, the capacity starts coming down because you get away from the controlling center of mass.

[goduc]

Generally a 5er sits closer to the cab, even more so when using a short bed with a slider. A TT sits 9.5' to 11' back from the cab. Wind goes over the cab and then down to the tailgate. The frontal area on a TT is exposed to more wind than a 5er which is tucked in behind the truck. Even though the 5er is higher there's less exposed area.
JMOs but I get better mpg with my 5er than with the TT I had before.