Integrated Trailer Brake Controllers

[prof_fate]

Went from a p3 on an old ford TV and current TT to a 13 silverado with integrated controller. Works flawlessly, I think better than the P3..only because in our hilly gravelly CG I'd adjust the sensitivity on the p3 to get adequate braking. Not an issue now.

The only annoying thing is the truck has a backup alarm (and camera). The dash will tell you when you have connected a trailer but the backup alarm isn't told this..so it flashes 'blocked' until you clear it. Just the ball blocks it...annoying.

[transamz9]

Originally Posted by thebrakeman

Thank you for your opinion about my opinion...

I've read both of your posts, I neither of them give any basis for your opinion. Do you have any reasoning for your opinions.

For my part, as I've said, there is significant advantage (for the integrated BC) in convenience, warranty, and even for the rare need for stability control when towing. But for basic performance (stopping distance) I see nothing that would decrease. Both systems are sensing deceleration rates directly with non-moving accelerometers, and sending a proportional signal to the 7-pin Bargman connector.

Please explain to me how the integrated system will stop a rig shorter? I'm not trying to argue. Just trying to draw you out a bit more. If you have better information than I do, I would love to learn more about it. Please share.

It won't stop it faster but it will stop it smoother in different conditions. On the IBC you set the setting where it will just lock up the trailer axles when you squeeze the hand control fully. After set up correctly the brake controller reads how fast you are trying to stop by reading how much pressure you are putting on the tv's brakes. If you have an emergency stop and slam on the brakes it will instantly apply full trailer brakes. If you are coasting to a stop with just your foot touching the pedal to make your brake lights come on then it will not put any power to the trailer brakes. It works flawlessly in my 2013 Ram. No matter how I stop (slow,fast,or off and on) it works and feels as there is no trailer behind me. The brake pedal feels just like it does when not towing anything and the trailer stops right with the truck every time. Never does the trailer push or jerk on the truck and I'm towing 18,000#.

[pappcam]

U

Originally Posted by thebrakeman

Thank you for your opinion about my opinion...

I've read both of your posts, I neither of them give any basis for your opinion. Do you have any reasoning for your opinions.

For my part, as I've said, there is significant advantage (for the integrated BC) in convenience, warranty, and even for the rare need for stability control when towing. But for basic performance (stopping distance) I see nothing that would decrease. Both systems are sensing deceleration rates directly with non-moving accelerometers, and sending a proportional signal to the 7-pin Bargman connector.

Please explain to me how the integrated system will stop a rig shorter? I'm not trying to argue. Just trying to draw you out a bit more. If you have better information than I do, I would love to learn more about it. Please share.

Originally Posted by transamz9

It won't stop it faster but it will stop it smoother in different conditions. On the IBC you set the setting where it will just lock up the trailer axles when you squeeze the hand control fully. After set up correctly the brake controller reads how fast you are trying to stop by reading how much pressure you are putting on the tv's brakes. If you have an emergency stop and slam on the brakes it will instantly apply full trailer brakes. If you are coasting to a stop with just your foot touching the pedal to make your brake lights come on then it will not put any power to the trailer brakes. It works flawlessly in my 2013 Ram. No matter how I stop (slow,fast,or off and on) it works and feels as there is no trailer behind me. The brake pedal feels just like it does when not towing anything and the trailer stops right with the truck every time. Never does the trailer push or jerk on the truck and I'm towing 18,000#.

What he said...

Also, I've used both and the ease of setup, the ease of use and the way it integrates with the other safety features of my truck means I'll never buy another truck without an IBC. I've never heard of anyone preferring an aftermarket one once they've used an integrated one.

[GreenImp]

This is off topic, but I feel this post requires a response.

Originally Posted by thebrakeman

Any by the way, even the integrated controllers are not directly tied into the hydraulics. They pull information from sensors that are reading hydraulic pressure, wheel speeds, and many other sensors involved in stability control etc.

Where exactly do you believe these sensors are getting their information about the hydraulic pressure, if not directly from the hydraulic system itself. I guess maybe you thought that I thought these controllers had hydraulic lines running to them (I didn't)?

Originally Posted by thebrakeman

There are some aftermarket brake controllers that actually tap into the hydraulic system. Or at least there used to be. I do not believe these would function significantly better than the Tekonsha P2/P3 unit, would likely cost more, would be more difficult to install, and adds the risk of brake fluid leakage.

As I stated earlier, I own one of these aftermarket systems (MaxBrake). It does not tap into the vehicles hydraulics any more or less than the new factory systems (a simple pressure sensor). You are correct that they cost more, and may not even be available any longer, but they are NOT difficult to install. Anybody who has ever changed a brake cylinder, caliper, or even simply bled their brakes can handle it. As to your statement "adds the risk of brake fluid leakage"...come on, there are already at least 20-25 joints in a modern brake hydraulic system...is adding 2 or 3 more really taking a risk?

I have yet to find anyone that has actually used a hydraulically activated controller and still thinks their pendulum/accelerometer activated unit (like the P2/P3) is better. I don't recall ever hearing any claims that they have a decreased overall stopping distance though...not sure where that suggestion came from.

In conclusion, I still consider my aftermarket, under dash mounted, hydraulically activated brake controller "integrated", and I will NEVER go back to one that isn't...having it built into the dash by the factory would be the icing on the cake!

[Gord k]

I have a question on brakes. I pulled out the break away pin by accident. Can I just tap it back in with hammer (lightly) or do I have to replace the pin & connector?

[fmc]

WE have a 2014 Ram 2500 HD with the integrated brake controller. It works perfect and the truck pulls our 5er great.

[B and B]

I have a 2013 Ford F 150 and the IBC has two modes. One for straight electric brakes and one for Hydralic brakes with electric controls. Mine works great!

[RhoZeta]

Originally Posted by Gord k

I have a question on brakes. I pulled out the break away pin by accident. Can I just tap it back in with hammer (lightly) or do I have to replace the pin & connector?

That pin should just push back in, mine does.

[thebrakeman]

Originally Posted by transamz9

It won't stop it faster but it will stop it smoother in different conditions. On the IBC you set the setting where it will just lock up the trailer axles when you squeeze the hand control fully. After set up correctly the brake controller reads how fast you are trying to stop by reading how much pressure you are putting on the tv's brakes. If you have an emergency stop and slam on the brakes it will instantly apply full trailer brakes. If you are coasting to a stop with just your foot touching the pedal to make your brake lights come on then it will not put any power to the trailer brakes. It works flawlessly in my 2013 Ram. No matter how I stop (slow,fast,or off and on) it works and feels as there is no trailer behind me. The brake pedal feels just like it does when not towing anything and the trailer stops right with the truck every time. Never does the trailer push or jerk on the truck and I'm towing 18,000#.

1. The Prodigy/P2/P3 controllers are set up exactly have you describe, so that a full panic apply will apply full, proportional trailer braking without locking up the trailer brakes. Any proportional brake controller should be set up in this way. Nothing new.
2. Respectfully, I do not believe that your IBC is responding to "how much pressure you put on the TV's brakes". Rather, the IBC (just like my Prodigy) is responding to the measured deceleration data received from the accelerometer(s). That way, if you hit a patch of wet pavement and the tires start to skid, the systems will measure the loss of deceleration, and adjust accordingly. This happens with the IBC or the Prodigy/P2/P3.

Again, guys, I'm not saying you are just a well-off with an aftermarket system as an IBC! I'm just telling you that the IBC will not perform it's most basic function (minimum stopping distance) any better than the best aftermarket controllers.

[thebrakeman]

Originally Posted by GreenImp

This is off topic, but I feel this post requires a response.
...come on, there are already at least 20-25 joints in a modern brake hydraulic system...is adding 2 or 3 more really taking a risk?

That's the definition of increased risk! That's a major reason I use a Scangage unit to monitor my trans temp (among many other things) rather than install an actual thermocouple into a fluid line. It's only 1 more connection. Is that taking a risk? Yes! No thank you.

I have yet to find anyone that has actually used a hydraulically activated controller and still thinks their pendulum/accelerometer activated unit (like the P2/P3) is better.

"Pendulum" and "P2/P3" should not be used in the same sentence. If that's your understanding, you misunderstand.

I don't recall ever hearing any claims that they have a decreased overall stopping distance though...not sure where that suggestion came from.

In conclusion, I still consider my aftermarket, under dash mounted, hydraulically activated brake controller "integrated", and I will NEVER go back to one that isn't...having it built into the dash by the factory would be the icing on the cake!

If/when I get to the point of purchasing a vehicle new enough to have a IBC, I will definitely do that. The advantages are obvious. But anyone that takes the time to read my initial post must agree I never said the IBC is inferior. I confirmed they are better, in terms of many things. My claim is only about their most basic performance metric, which is stopping distance. And for that, I do not believe they do any better than the P2/P3. I've made no other claims.

[thebrakeman]

Scratch some of that. I must have missed that you are still using an aftermarket hydraulically-actuated controller. Sorry about that.

To that point, we must simply agree to disagree. IMO, reading hydraulic pressure only is inferior to using deceleration data.

And I'd still enjoy a cup of coffee with you around the campfire if you'd have me!

[Avenger61]

I bought the truck and the brake controller works like a champ! It's a real challenge to drive that thing without a smile on my face!! Thanks for all the feedback and helping me make up my mind.

[RhoZeta]

Originally Posted by thebrakeman

1.
2. Respectfully, I do not believe that your IBC is responding to "how much pressure you put on the TV's brakes". Rather, the IBC (just like my Prodigy) is responding to the measured deceleration data received from the accelerometer(s). That way, if you hit a patch of wet pavement and the tires start to skid, the systems will measure the loss of deceleration, and adjust accordingly. This happens with the IBC or the Prodigy/P2/P3.

Well.... actually... the IBC in my F250 IS responding to how much pressure I put on my brakes, there is an LED light bar under the display that shows how much power is going to my trailer brakes, it is directly affected by how hard I push on my brake pedal. And it will do this while I am moving OR standing still so a pendulum would not be involved.

Curious, If you step on your brake pedal while sitting still in park, do your trailer brakes activate?

[transamz9]

X2^^^

[BombDoc]

Originally Posted by Avenger61

I am about to buy a 2014 RAM 2500 SLT Crew Cab 4X4 6.7 L Cummins Turbo Diesel and it comes with an integrated brake controller. I have read a few threads in other forums about how these brake controllers would lock up on older model vehicles. Is there anyone that owns one of these or familiar with the newer versions that can tell me if they work well and are reliable?

Just drove 1800 miles round trip to Goshen with my 2011 Ram with integrated brake controller, had zero issues with it.

[thebrakeman]

Originally Posted by RhoZeta

Well.... actually... the IBC in my F250 IS responding to how much pressure I put on my brakes, there is an LED light bar under the display that shows how much power is going to my trailer brakes, it is directly affected by how hard I push on my brake pedal. And it will do this while I am moving OR standing still so a pendulum would not be involved.

Curious, If you step on your brake pedal while sitting still in park, do your trailer brakes activate?

Thanks for helping me learn something. Sounds like your system is reading pressure. Then again, that meter could be a function of pedal position. Hard to nail down, but seems to be pressure.

Yes. When at rest (no measured deceleration) after about 2 seconds, if the brake light switch is still reading that the brakes are applied, The Tekonsha controllers will understand that you must be stopped, with intent on holding the rig in place. It then automatically sends 25% of the full-adjusted braking to the trailer to help hold the rig. But it does this without the need to measure pressure. The only thing measured is deceleration.

[campingwilliamsons]

The IBCs use several pieces of information including accelerometer, brake pedal POSITION, tow vehicle wheel speed/slip, etc to factor how much voltage should be applied to the trailer brakes. On the Ford at least, it also takes into account the "integrated sway control" sensors, whatever they are (presumably lateral accelerometers).

Either way, I suspect brakeman is correct. If you test these side by side, same truck and trailer, dry pavement, level ground, the stopping distance will be the same (or within the std. deviation). Now, add uneven wet terrain with an incline/decline and steady cross winds, and the result will likely be different. Not to mention, safety/comfort in the cab with the IBC will be better.

[thebrakeman]

FINALLY!
Someone responded based on my initial premise!

[prof_fate]

AFAIK an aftermarket BC measure deceleration - amount and rate (for panic stops). Never read anything about it 'timing out' or whatever you want to call it into a park/hill hold mode.

The IBC can do a whole lot more as it has a LOT more information available to it. Vehicle speed, temperature (freezing or not), load perhaps (my '88 jeep had a load sensor that adjusted the rear brakes based on payload), driving mode (chevy truck has a haul mode in the transmission), various abs/traction/stability/EBS (nissan's term for how hard you hit the brakes so it could identify a panic stop), ABS, gear and who knows what else.

Hell, most trucks today have GPS so mebbe it can tell you the incline of the hill you're descending! If not now, soon i'm sure.

Anyone have the truck's abs come on when towing, as in trying to stop? What does the TT brakes do?

[thebrakeman]

Have you ever owned a Prodigy, P2, or P3? If so, and you read the owner manual, I'm not sure how you would not have read about the hold feature.

It's not anything complicated. Just a bit of logic to help keep folks from driving forward at a red light/traffic jam, in case their brake leg gets tired. As long as the brake lights are on, 25% of set voltage remains on the trailer, which should be enough to hold the rig stationary unless on a significant grade.

Time-delay controllers would be holding at full-force by that time. And IBC are holding based on pressure and/or pedal position. So in the case of a pure decel-based controller, this is their way of providing assistance at rest.