Payload Dead Horse

[rsopnco1]

Let’s beat a dead horse, towing vs payload.

I have 2018 Titan XD SL 4x4. Payload is 1543, GCVWR max 19540. I want a 5th wheel. I understand pin weights would push a little over payload (200-400lbs) still about 2k less than max GCVWR. So I’m thinking, throw some airbags to push weight more towards the front axle; concept is understood no different than the current weight dib for the camper now.

Thoughts?

[cc102bob]

Well... remember that you are also payload. And your wife/kids/dogs/cooler full of snacks/hitch/firewood/etc... Add up all the stuff you plan on having in the truck and subtract that from that 1543lb payload number. Is there still enough left to add the pin weight of a fifth wheel trailer and still be anywhere close to that number?

OK, airbags and helper springs added to get the truck to "look" ok. Are the tires capable of handling that much weight? No? Spend $'s on new tires.

Got airbags, helper springs, new tires? Good. Are you sure the brakes can handle all that load in a panic stop? Hopefully you won't find out the hard way.

Found out the hard way that the truck just can't handle the load and injure/kill someone? Woohoo! A good lawyer owns everything you currently have and will have for many years in the future.

Still want to push the limits of that truck? Or would you rather get one that can handle the job without mods? Or you can decide to get a trailer that the truck CAN handle.

[The Big Toe]

Originally Posted by rsopnco1

Let’s beat a dead horse, towing vs payload.

I have 2018 Titan XD SL 4x4. Payload is 1543, GCVWR max 19540. I want a 5th wheel. I understand pin weights would push a little over payload (200-400lbs) still about 2k less than max GCVWR. So I’m thinking, throw some airbags to push weight more towards the front axle; concept is understood no different than the current weight dib for the camper now.

Thoughts?

I assume it's a gasser??

I normally side against the weight police in here (and everywhere else) but I think that's just too much for your truck.

Can it pull it? Sure. You can pull it with a Cub Cadet. Not very fast, but it will do it.

'Will it stop it' is the question you need to ask yourself. On a 7% grade downhill, on a slippery slope, in an emergency situation......??

Not only that vut one thing most people don't consider -- You're gonna beat the living daylights out of that poor little truck.

You don't have the suspension, the tires, the brakes, the engine, the transmission..... You'll end up repairing and replacing parts on your Nissan so much, you'll be better off just buying a TV built for the job.

Not knocking your truck, it's just not built for the job you want it to do.

My $.02 and worth even less

[DieselDrax]

Airbags do nothing to move weight forward, that’s not what they’re for or how they work.

Not only that, the payload capacity is what the entire truck can carry, not just the bed or rear axle, so if you’re over payload then you’re over the total weight the truck is rated for. Moving weight forward doesn’t remove any weight off the truck to reduce the payload.

Throwing parts at the problem doesn’t increase your truck’s payload capacity one bit. Airbags, helper springs, upgraded tires. None of that will allow you to carry more weight.

You’re wasting your time, if you want to get a 5th wheel then you’re going to need a truck with more payload capacity or you’ll need to find an ultralight one that won’t put your truck over payload once you and anyone else hop into the truck and hit the road.

[Chuck_S]

That Country Club pickup truck cargo capacity is only 127 pounds more than my Ford Expedition SUV.

The 5th Wheel tongue weight rule of thumb is 20% of the trailer's weight should be on the pin vs 10% to 15% for a conventional towed trailer and 5% to 7% for boat trailers which are the trailers lightweight pickups can typically handle well. A 7715 pound 5th wheel will use all 1543 pounds of payload leaving no room in the truck for more than a 150 pound driver.

Ford claims a "best in class" pickup payload of 3720 pounds for a specific, not just any model F150. Or a 18,600 pound 5th wheel (by 20% rule of thumb) behind the empty truck. And that is pushing maximums in all categories.

Since I doubt the example 7715 pound (GVWR) 5th wheel trailer exists you're left with the decision to buy a new truck or change your trailer type to something you can safely tow. Or just ignore it and press-on like many do.

This is a very common scenario many of us have been thru. My first "tow vehicle" was incapable of towing a 2000 pound popup with my family on board.

-- Chuck

[The Big Toe]

The Titan XD is supposed to be a little more stout than an F-150/1500 pickup. Between a Class 2a and class 2b truck.

IMHO, if you're gonna pull a fiver, you need a Class 2b truck (F-250, 2500, etc) and the Titan just doesn't have the 'oomph'

If I were the OP, I'd look at going to a decent sized pull behind if a new truck is out of the picture.

To me, a fiver is for people who are on the road a lot. For the average person, a pull behind is more than enough. A fiver tows better and is, IMHO, for people who put a lot of miles on their vehicle.

For the majority of family RVing, a tow behind is more than enough. You also get more bang for the buck. Fivers ain't cheap.

[rsopnco1]

Well, after well received input, thank you by the way. It sadly seems we will have to stay with a TT. FWIW, I’ve been able to find a few 5ers that seem to hit within my presumed weight range. Just to answer a few speculations out there I figured I throw a little info about the madness and my “country club truck”. That’s pretty funny, never thought of it that way.

Payload calculated included people and dog.
Tires: E rated.
Brakes: 14.17" x 1.5" front vented disc and 14.37" x 1.2" rear vented disc brakes
Electronic Brake force Distribution (EBD) and Brake Assist.
Engine: Cummins® 5.0-liter DOHC 32-valve V8 Turbo Diesel engine (Late availability) Horsepower – 310 hp @ 3,200 rpm Torque – 555 lb-ft of torque @ 1,600 rpm
Transmission: Aisin® 6-speed automatic transmission
Rear axle: 4.10 (if memory is right)
GVWR 8,990
GAWR RR 4900
GAWR FR 4900

[DieselDrax]

Originally Posted by rsopnco1

Well, after well received input, thank you by the way. It sadly seems we will have to stay with a TT. FWIW, I’ve been able to find a few 5ers that seem to hit within my presumed weight range. Just to answer a few speculations out there I figured I throw a little info about the madness and my “country club truck”. That’s pretty funny, never thought of it that way.

Payload calculated included people and dog.
Tires: E rated.
Brakes: 14.17" x 1.5" front vented disc and 14.37" x 1.2" rear vented disc brakes
Electronic Brake force Distribution (EBD) and Brake Assist.
Engine: Cummins® 5.0-liter DOHC 32-valve V8 Turbo Diesel engine (Late availability) Horsepower – 310 hp @ 3,200 rpm Torque – 555 lb-ft of torque @ 1,600 rpm
Transmission: Aisin® 6-speed automatic transmission
Rear axle: 4.10 (if memory is right)
GVWR 8,990
GAWR RR 4900
GAWR FR 4900

And just to make sure, you based your remaining payload on the payload sticker on the truck and not some numbers you found on the internet, correct? There's a tire placard, usually on the driver's B-pillar with the door open, that lists the payload capacity for your truck as it left the factory. Includes a full tank of fuel but no people, gear, or dealer-installed accessories. Make sure you subtract the weight of people and gear from that number to estimate your remaining payload capacity, but ultimately the best way to know how much is left is to load it up with the usual stuff and head over to your local CAT scales.

Only reason I mention this is because a lot of people make the mistake of assuming the payload capacity for their truck is what the brochures or advertising literature say and don't realize that payload varies based on trim and options which means you have to look at the payload capacity specifically listed on your truck and ignore everything else.

[tomkatb]

You need about #3000 of payload to tow a fifth wheels.

You are 100% low.

There are a few small fivers, but, the word is small.

Good advice. For a fiver get a 1 ton hd truck.

List the one you want and you will get an opinion here.

[Herk7769]

Originally Posted by DieselDrax

Airbags do nothing to move weight forward, that’s not what they’re for or how they work.

Not only that, the payload capacity is what the entire truck can carry, not just the bed or rear axle, so if you’re over payload then you’re over the total weight the truck is rated for. Moving weight forward doesn’t remove any weight off the truck to reduce the payload.

Throwing parts at the problem doesn’t increase your truck’s payload capacity one bit. Airbags, helper springs, upgraded tires. None of that will allow you to carry more weight.

You’re wasting your time, if you want to get a 5th wheel then you’re going to need a truck with more payload capacity or you’ll need to find an ultralight one that won’t put your truck over payload once you and anyone else hop into the truck and hit the road.

On every set of airbags I have seen there is a warning in the install directions that airbags do not increase payload. They just smooth out the bounces and level the truck.

[Chuck_S]

A pickup with 127 more pounds of cargo/capacity than my "country club" Expedition SUV qualifies for the same classification. A pickup for bringing home mulch from Home Depot and, of course, driving to the country club or yacht club without total embarrassment. My '07 Expedition had more capacity than my '17. Maybe as much as this pickup.

I have no idea why this claim can be made, certainly not for this specific truck's cargo capacity: "The Titan XD is supposed to be a little more stout than an F-150/1500 pickup. Between a Class 2a and class 2b truck." I admit to not having a clue what Class 2a and 2b mean or who sets the standards. I know stuff like "1/2" or "3/4 ton is meaningless.

Even the "lightweight" campers are getting heavier year by year. And there's a bewilderingly array of pickups available many of which make great tow vehicles but horrible daily drivers.

-- Chuck

[DieselDrax]

Originally Posted by Chuck_S

A pickup with 127 more pounds of cargo/capacity than my "country club" Expedition SUV qualifies for the same classification. A pickup for bringing home mulch from Home Depot and, of course, driving to the country club or yacht club without total embarrassment. My '07 Expedition had more capacity than my '17. Maybe as much as this pickup.

I have no idea why this claim can be made, certainly not for this specific truck's cargo capacity: "The Titan XD is supposed to be a little more stout than an F-150/1500 pickup. Between a Class 2a and class 2b truck." I admit to not having a clue what Class 2a and 2b mean or who sets the standards. I know stuff like "1/2" or "3/4 ton is meaningless.

Even the "lightweight" campers are getting heavier year by year. And there's a bewilderingly array of pickups available many of which make great tow vehicles but horrible daily drivers.

-- Chuck

In a later post they stated that the payload was what was left after accounting for people and a dog, so sounded like that wasn't their total payload capacity but rather what remained.

That said, I also asked them where they got the total payload capacity number from to make sure they weren't getting a number that wasn't for their specific truck and that they were also accounting for anything in/on the truck that wasn't there from the factory.

So, if it does have ~1,500LB payload left after accounting for people and other stuff that's not too bad for a HD half-ton.

[Chuck_S]

The placards in the door jam have all the data and they're federally mandated so there should be no confusion. Note "The combined weight of occupants and cargo should never exceed: {weights here in kg and pounds}. That's your cargo capacity.

Here's mine for an example. Yours will be identical -- look in your door jam.

[CedarCreekWoody]

Get you one of these to tow:

[rsopnco1]

Yes payload was based on the sticker in the door (1543). Also weight ratings on the other label. Other info from owners manual.
Lightest 5er was a KZ D259RL. I’ll try to attach and hope it works.

[clarkbre]

Originally Posted by CedarCreekWoody

Get you one of these to tow:

All kidding aside, that has better weight distribution on the TV's front and rear axles than anything else on this forum

[DieselDrax]

Originally Posted by rsopnco1

Yes payload was based on the sticker in the door (1543). Also weight ratings on the other label. Other info from owners manual.
Lightest 5er was a KZ D259RL. I’ll try to attach and hope it works.

Your spreadsheet says passengers and cargo. Did you include the weight of the driver as well? If not, you must include that as driver weight is not included in the payload capacity.

You also included the dry/factory pin weight in that spreadsheet, which is only valid as it rolled off the assembly line. No batteries, no propane, etc (unless otherwise noted). None of your gear. No food. No water.

That dry pin weight is 18% of the dry trailer weight. Using trailer GVWR is better since it's closer to worst case/reality.

That puts the potential pin weight at roughly 1,700LB, not 1,325LB, and would put the truck well over its GVWR without even putting anyone or anything else in or on the truck.

Using fantasy dry weights is what gets people into trouble, not understanding what is and isn't included in the payload capacity makes it even worse. Not saying you didn't include everything in your payload calculation but since your sheet says "passengers" and not "occupants" that implies you didn't include the driver's weight.

Also missing from your payload estimate is the weight of the 5th wheel hitch itself, so there's another 120LB or so that needs to be included.

Your truck's payload capacity of 1,543LB is only 324LB more than my mid-size 1/4-ton truck. The way you worded your previous posts it sounded like your truck was closer to 2,000LB payload capacity. Whoops.

Welcome to the trials and tribulations of owning a 4WD diesel truck that's not at least a 1-ton class (350/3500).

[Ejs4029]

Originally Posted by tomkatb

You need about #3000 of payload to tow a fifth wheels.

You are 100% low.

There are a few small fivers, but, the word is small.

Good advice. For a fiver get a 1 ton hd truck.

List the one you want and you will get an opinion here.

3000# of payload to tow a 5th wheel ? Geez that is blanket statement. Wonder how many forum members don't have #3000 payloads that are towing 5th wheels ? The weight police are coming to get you

[rsopnco1]

Passengers include me. Hitch was included as the ultimate Anderson (~37). Planned on the shank connection vs rails. It sounds like it’s just ain’t happening with this rig. It’s damn shame cuz it pulls our Grey Wolf 29TE great. And the ride is good once I got the WD dialed in.

[67L48]

Originally Posted by Ejs4029

3000# of payload to tow a 5th wheel ? Geez that is blanket statement. [...]

I think it's just a general rule of thumb. Many 5ers are in the 12,000 lb range. 20% of that on the pin is 2,400 lbs. Add in 100 lbs for the hitch, 350 for a fully clothed couple, and another 150 lbs of anything in the bed, aftermarket items on the truck, gear, tools, bags, dogs, kids, etc. Yeah, that's right around 3,000 lbs.

So, a good rule of thumb is about 3,000 lbs. This isn't weight police. It's just math. Some people are conscious of GVWR, can do math, and are able to compare GVW to GVWR. Some people just don't care. Either way works, just make an eyes-wide-open decision.

Like others said above, you can get a small 5er and be OK ... I've seen 27' 5ers that would work fine for most modern 1/2 tons. But, as a general rule for a typical 5er ... 3,000 lbs seems like a fairly reasonable number.