Pin Weights for Fifth Wheel

[67L48]

Originally Posted by NMWildcat

You definitely are on the safest end of the spectrum, towing a less than 7k lb bumper pull with a one ton.

Yep. Any modern 1/2 ton can easily pull my trailer. My 2005 F-150 could not ... not up the Rocky Mountains, anyway. I could tow east; I could not tow west. Not due to safety or specs or numbers ... it physically could not get up the hills. Overheated, 20 mph, and no-go and not even half way up.

My TV is not properly sized to my trailer. But, I own my vehicles for the long term. It's a future-proof move. If I only ever intended to tow a 7K, 26' trailer, then I'd own a 3.5L EB, as I have no use for a normally aspirated engine at the altitudes I tow.

[Tall frog]

Originally Posted by AlaskaErik

You haven't offended anyone, but some people think being 1000 lbs over gross is no big deal or adding an extra leaf spring and maybe some air bags is the cure. The fact of the matter is that 3/4 ton diesels have a pretty low payload capacity. Most likely, the pin weight of the 5er you will be towing already has you over your payload capacity. That's before you add in yourself, the wife, the kids, the dog and all the gear in your truck and the hitch. The only real question you should be asking is do I get a one ton SRW or DRW. Get an accurate pin weight when the trailer is loaded, determine how much the family, including yourself, weighs as well as all your cargo going into the truck and the weight of the hitch. Once you know how much all that weighs, get a one ton that has a yellow sticker in the driver's door jamb with a payload capacity higher than that number. You won't need to look at 3/4 tons, because none of them will have a payload capacity weight that's even close to your actual payload weight.

The problem with your statement is you don't know about the differences between 2500 and 3500 GM product. THE ONLY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN a 2500 and a 3500 hd ( for years 2015-2019 ) is 1 leaf spring. Thats all , a 2500 is rated as such for some insurance, tax,and licensing in some states or counties rules. I don't know for sure on other brands but the OP was talking about GM trucks. The 2020 hd trucks do have some different rates between the 2, but the new trucks have much higher load capacity.

[moose074]

The “laws” surrounding the payload sticker a viewed from many different POV.
For some it is straight down the line. If the sticker says 1900lbs then 1901 is over get a truck with a higher payload.

Their are those who go by percentages. Example payload sticker says 1900 Ibs don’t exceed 80% so anything over 1550 (estimate) would be exceeding their POV.

Some believe that if their vehicle can pull and stop the trailer safely then why look at the payload.

I have started threads not to argue but for education of myself and those who read the thread. That offered those of different views to prove they are legally correct. On my initial thread it boils down to was the law pertaining to commercial trucks or private. On another it came down to what weight you register your truck not the payload sticker. Both threads had some good information but again I don’t believe a non biased person could side either way.

I started another thread about two weeks ago titled “ How do commercial drivers get away with it” I did so because I did a lot traveling on 1-10 recently. While I am sure I have seen them before. I started noticing a lot of 3+ car haulers being towed by 1 ton trucks. Being commercial I knew they had too pull into weigh stations. One vehicle I saw had a full size truck sitting directly over the hitch on a flat raised section of the trailer, two vehicles on the ramp with part of the second vehicle over the bumper or real close to it. Plus the vehicle on the bottom was at the very front of the trailer adding more weight. It was an older probably pre 2010 Ram pulling it. Again I found that some say it’s the weight at which they have registered their own vehicle while being commercial driver that the weigh stations use not the payload sticker. Now there was one participant who flat out stated he doubts they were over payload. I used pictures from internet as an example and while he/ she could have been 100% correct. I felt that it was based on a bias that if they were overweight then they would have to admit they were wrong. I came to this opinion because they didn’t address any of the other responses, had no info on the year make model of the trucks I used in the pictures to make his statement.

I wrote all this to state that regardless of POV. I haven’t seen much proof for either side nor have I seen many minds changed.

[AlaskaErik]

Originally Posted by Tall frog

The problem with your statement is you don't know about the differences between 2500 and 3500 GM product. THE ONLY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN a 2500 and a 3500 hd ( for years 2015-2019 ) is 1 leaf spring. Thats all , a 2500 is rated as such for some insurance, tax,and licensing in some states or counties rules. I don't know for sure on other brands but the OP was talking about GM trucks. The 2020 hd trucks do have some different rates between the 2, but the new trucks have much higher load capacity.

You can add all the leafs and air bags you want, but GM will stand by the payload capacity stated on the door jamb sticker. And if you should ever wind up in a court of law, good luck on getting a jury to buy that argument. So rationalize away all you want.

[5picker]

Originally Posted by Chief 24

Have I posted something in the wrong forum, I was just asking a question about towing issues. Sorry if I have offended anyone. New to the forum site

No... but... weight questions are one of the HOTTEST contested threads on any R/V forum. Many opinions get mistaken for facts and there is lots of fear mongering takes place.

Hang in there... wade through the BS (and you'll soon learn what that is) and you'll get some answers.

But, without actual numbers we are all just expressing an opinion about whether we believe you are OK.

Show us some actual numbers and you'll get some good help to your questions.

[NMWildcat]

Originally Posted by AlaskaErik

You can add all the leafs and air bags you want, but GM will stand by the payload capacity stated on the door jamb sticker. And if you should ever wind up in a court of law, good luck on getting a jury to buy that argument. So rationalize away all you want.

Ah, the last ditch fallback to the lawyer/police fear mongering has arrived

[rzr4playtime]

OP, as you can read lots of varying opinions and choices of direction to go. I too learned much from this forum, mostly reading. Choice 1 - go from your expience, 2 - go from others wisdom, 3 - go from the numbers. Personally I chose #1. Pulled 14100 lb 5ver with 3/4 ton truck. All was well, though as trips become longer I wanted improvements in ride and handling. Then I went with air bags, much improvement in bucking and chucking. Then when the trips became even longer I started looking for more improvements, pushing in the turns and sway. Went back to my original choices and thought them through. This is where choice #3 started making more sense to meet my ever increasing personal needs of improvements in ride, handling, etc. Now I have a DRW and life is good. So its all around personal choice. Now I'm experienced and safe for me and others ahead of or behind me.

[frank4711]

Payload is the number you need ... if you can carry it you can tow it ... you will always run out of payload before towing there is no exception to that ... I have been there!!! best of luck on your search

[Mark S.]

I have the same truck. You are over towing. Mine is a LTZ with 2295 payload. Truck towing max is 13,400 lbs on a fifth wheel. The 2020 models have increased in towing and payload. Don’t get me wrong it will tow it, just like those 1/2 tons out there towing 8,000 lbs. and bounce on the road. Good luck.

[Carguy1965]

Seems like I read this whole thread about once a week or so.



I tow a 35ft Montana 5vr with my 2016 Ram 2500. Trailer is 12K empty, and like all 2500s with decent size 5vrs, I am a bit over on Payload. I have F rated tires, and 5000lb air lift bags that I only run about 35lbs in when towing. The truck is easily capable of handling it no problem, The bags really just smooth the ride a bit, Truck pulls it fine, stops fine and rides great. You will not get stopped by the DOT or any of the other scary legal stuff you will hear about. Your trailer is longer at 41 feet but weight is about the same as mine. Put the extra leaf in or add some good quality bags, and drive like you always should pulling a rig and you will be fine.

Do not skimp on tires!

[TGO Bill]

Originally Posted by Chief 24

I presently own a 2016 2500HD 4WD Duramax 6 1/2' bed. We are pulling a new Sandpiper 39BARK that 12,100 dry. What are your opinions or facts on the safety of pulling this with a 2500. I have heard several different explanations. I have pulled a Cardinal 3850 with no problem 600 plus miles. With no problem, BUT I carry precious cargo and don't want to push the limits. Looking now at 3500HD Long box SRW to eliminate any questions. Thanks for your experience and thoughts

Remember this, with only a single rear wheel, you are sure to wear out tires at a much faster rate. Plus you would have better stability with a Dually.

[cobaltpap]

Originally Posted by cmysstailights

Not much of a difference in the 2500 to 3500. Pretty sure you already have the beefier rear. Brakes are the same. Just the leaf pack is different.

I completely disagree. My 2019 3500 SRW can tow 24,671 lbs and payload is 3955, There isn't a 2500 built that can come close to that.

[MikeRP]

Why should the OP spend Buku dollars so his stickers read right?

I actually have been amazed when I see these 2500 HD’s hooked up to trailers in the campgrounds. The overall stance of the vehicles are better than some 3500’s.

I would get weights and make sure you are not over the rear tires capacity ratings. I just upgraded my tires to 295/70/R18 and they have combined in the rear an additional 880 lbs of capacity. They are one inch taller and only about 4lbs per tire heavier.

After you check that, my advise is the hook er and go. I wouldn’t waste mega bucks in that weight range with a truck that’s extremely capable. Just my opinion those are fine trucks.

Now if ya want to get a new truck, well ya got something to tell the DW. But don’t think you are safer.

We seen many wrecks with DRW’s on their side.

[moose074]

Those that say you run out of payload before you exceed what you tow. I am not sure of that just looked in the door jam of I believe Ford Explorer/ escape. Regardless small 4 door suv willing to bet unibody front wheel drive. Payload 1589

[MikeRP]

Moose I completely find that interesting in light of this discussion. Wish I could find it but I owned a new 2008 Dodge MegaCab 2500 with the new 6.7 Cummins. A truck I loved and should have kept.

Its payload was a ridiculous only 1790lbs. 350/550 hp torque rating. 10 years later my CrewCab 3500 with the high output Cummins has a 3820 lb payload and the 6.7 has 385 hp and 930 torque.

Imagine 1790 lbs versus an SUV. 200 lbs more. That 2008 would handle 3000 lbs just as easily as my new 2018. And the 2008 Cummins really was a monster engine. I just don’t feel like there is that much difference in the trucks except the interior is much nicer on the 2018.

Point I’m making is that payload sticker on a 2500 series late model truck generally understates it’s capabilities.

[cmysstailights]

Originally Posted by MikeRP

Point I’m making is that payload sticker on a 2500 series late model truck generally understates it’s capabilities.

Its cause they share almost all the same components as the 3500. For chevy its leaf springs, rear end are the only differences.

[moose074]

Originally Posted by MikeRP

Moose I completely find that interesting in light of this discussion. Wish I could find it but I owned a new 2008 Dodge MegaCab 2500 with the new 6.7 Cummins. A truck I loved and should have kept.

Its payload was a ridiculous only 1790lbs. 350/550 hp torque rating. 10 years later my CrewCab 3500 with the high output Cummins has a 3820 lb payload and the 6.7 has 385 hp and 930 torque.

Imagine 1790 lbs versus an SUV. 200 lbs more. That 2008 would handle 3000 lbs just as easily as my new 2018. And the 2008 Cummins really was a monster engine. I just don’t feel like there is that much difference in the trucks except the interior is much nicer on the 2018.

Point I’m making is that payload sticker on a 2500 series late model truck generally understates it’s capabilities.

I would agree it makes no sense that that little suv probably with a 4 cylinder would have more payload than my Tundra and my F 150. My daily driver has a v-6 payload of 1900 I don’t know if I would be willing to tow a trailer that would put that kinda of weight in that truck. My Tundra yes, the Eco Boost yes my Ram 1500 no.

That’s why I started a few threads in the past asking about the payload sticker. Is it based on tires and rims could I upgrade my tires and thus increase my payload. For those that said you can’t increase payload and the sticker is final word period. I asked and I looked and I asked others to find reference to the payload sticker in any type of law.
Again people quoted from websites, experts and commercial dot regulations but none showed specific the payload sticker law or regulations.

Finally after seeing what I THOUGHT to be overloaded hot shot drivers. Who I know have to stop a weigh stations I asked how are they able to tow over payload sticker. The silence was deafening, not one person said the sticker was limiting factor, but it was what the registered weight of the truck was and not the sticker in the door jam. One person did challenge and said he doubts that they were overweight. Even without knowing anything about the vehicle.

In the end I still don’t have a conclusive answer to the enforcement of payload sticker by police, or if better rims and tires would change the payload capacity.

[SlowrideHD]

You'll have plenty of replies about weight ratings.....tires, axles, payloads, gross, etc. I am not going to argue with any of those. Instead, I'll tell you this.
I used to pull the camper in my signature line with an '02 F250 7.3L Powerstroke short bed 4X4 with airbags. It would sit level and had plenty of power to pull the camper.

Didn't feel as if it were the optimum setup, so I traded for my current F350 dually. There is so much difference in the drive and ease of handling, it's like day and night. At the end of the day, it's nice to still feel rested and comfortable, no matter the conditions you have been driving in all day. Because every day isn't going to be a clear day with no wind.

[moose074]

Your almost comparing apple to oranges 250 horsepower to 440 and 500 foot pounds. By the time you include the extra weight of your 7.3 my 3.6 probably has more hp and torque per pound

[MikeRP]

Slow ride I know that your 2002 Ford was a legendary truck. But those trucks as nice as they were for the times, are not even in the league of a 13+ HD Truck.

Now I love duelies. There are tons of F450’s out there in my area at good prices. I talked to a gentlemen a couple of months ago, new f450 and towing a camper smaller than the one I’m towing. Says he’s getting 12.5 mpg unloaded and 7-7.5 mpg towing. Is that your experience?

I get 19-20 mpg w my Ram unloaded and 11-11.5 w my Coach. Now I get that a duelie in some respects is gonna be better than a SRW. But those numbers chilled my idea of buying a duelie especially when my Ram is having zero issues w my Creek.

But safety is my concern. Like I talked to a gentleman in a campground towing a duelie level camper, In my opinion, with a Chevy 2500 HD, and he said he goes 70-75 mph. I tow at 65 mph. That’s just way too fast for any combo.

My point is I think assured clear distance, speed, condition of your equipment, weather conditions, driver attentiveness or distractions, is 90% of making sure you are safe.

When I first got my 3500, I was used to driving my EcoDiesel,It was really a Cadillac truck, but I had several hard stops. I finally realized after I got the crap scarred out of me by a deer hunter than I need to rethink how I drive this truck. So I work all the time on driving my truck like I would drive it when towing.

And that’s where safety starts.

So for the OP thinking about a new truck, your precious cargo and the safety of that cargo come first and defining that safety with your truck choice is job one.