Question: F150 5.0L Engine Oil

[DieselDrax]

Originally Posted by Mad Cow

Except a 20w is not "thinner" than a 30w or even a 40w. Molecules are similar size. Viscosity is a measure of resistance to flow, not thickness. And a 30w at operating temperature has lower flow resistance (11-12 cSt) than a 20w at start up (50 cSt) when temp is 70F outside. Even at full operating temperature of 100c/212F, a 20w is at 8-9 cSt viscosity whereas the 30w is at 11-12 cSt. One is going to have a real tough time using the argument that 3 points of cSt by using a 30w over a 20w is going to make any real difference inside the motor, especially when at startup, a 20w is almost 40 points higher viscosity than a 30w at operating temp.

So many misconceptions... so little time.

similar type of situation though slightly different... A factory remanned 12.7L Detroit Diesel I have in a class 8 truck regularly has to move up to 80,000 lb of truck and cargo year round. The OEM and dealers recommend 15w40. I am using a 10w30 in it. The motor now has 838,000 miles on the reman. It uses about 1 qt of oil in 11,000 miles. The recommended drain interval is 15,000 miles. I take the oil changes to 22,500 miles.. 50% longer. Using a common 10w30 synthetic blend diesel oil... no boutique full synthetic stuff. The latest oil sample at the last oil change looks as good as when the motor had 50,000 miles on it. All original except a couple of exhaust manifold bolts. Should go over 1 million comfortably without opening the motor.

To the OP.... a 30w will work just fine in a motor that the OEM calls for 20w. The only difference is the resistance of the 30w which would increase fuel consumption rate over a 20w, but only measurable under very controlled scenarios. The average owner would notice nothing. But conversely, a 20w will work just fine as well. Use what you want.

This post is likely to be very confusing to some people because you’re using “w” to represent two different things.

The “10w” in “10w30” stands for “winter” and has to do with cold flow properties. When you switch and talk about “20w/30w/40w” you are changing that “w” to mean “weight” which is the viscosity when up to temp.

The “w” rating of an oil only applies when the oil is cold.

[Mad Cow]

Originally Posted by DieselDrax

This post is likely to be very confusing to some people because you’re using “w” to represent two different things.

The “10w” in “10w30” stands for “winter” and has to do with cold flow properties. When you switch and talk about “20w/30w/40w” you are changing that “w” to mean “weight” which is the viscosity when up to temp.

The “w” rating of an oil only applies when the oil is cold.

You are right, the "w" in a multi viscosity oil (2 numbers either side of the "w") rating pertains to "winter" not weight. But the latter number, the one after the "w" is the actual weight of the oil. A "w" after a single or lone number means weight. Only when it is between two numbers does it pertain to cold flow rating.

A 0w30, 5w30, 10w30 or even a straight 30 are all 30 weight, or 30w, oils, just the cold flow rating is different. That is true for every multi viscosity oil. But that should prove the point that the number in front the "w" on a multi vis oil has nothing to do with "thickness". For instance, a 0w30. There is no such thing as a 0 viscosity fluid, be it water or oil. All fluids have some level of resistance to flow, AKA viscosity.

[Rich5117]

Great thread, not all oils are created equally. I prefer Valvoline Premium Blue Know most will say not much difference when doing normal oil changes. My 6.7 was really noisy using the OEM oil, switched to The Valvoline what a difference.

[DieselDrax]

Originally Posted by Mad Cow

You are right, the "w" in a multi viscosity oil (2 numbers either side of the "w") rating pertains to "winter" not weight. But the latter number, the one after the "w" is the actual weight of the oil. A "w" after a single or lone number means weight. Only when it is between two numbers does it pertain to cold flow rating.

A 0w30, 5w30, 10w30 or even a straight 30 are all 30 weight, or 30w, oils, just the cold flow rating is different. That is true for every multi viscosity oil. But that should prove the point that the number in front the "w" on a multi vis oil has nothing to do with "thickness". For instance, a 0w30. There is no such thing as a 0 viscosity fluid, be it water or oil. All fluids have some level of resistance to flow.

I'm well aware of how viscosity and oil works, I pointed out your different usages of "w" because people that DON'T understand oils will see your wording and become confused because they don't know any better and because the way you're using "w" to mean "weight" is incorrect when you're talking about standards. If you want to make sure you're not causing confusion, say SAE 10w and SAE 30.

"10w" means the same thing whether it's by itself or used with the whole multi-vis rating such as "10w-30". The W-ratings are actual oil grades defined by the SAE J300 specification.

Sorry for derailing the thread a little, I just don't want someone to come along and think "20w" in "20w-50" and your "20w" when you mean "Xw-20" are the same thing when they aren't.

For anyone curious about the different viscosities and how they act at different temps, see the attached chart.

[Mad Cow]

Motors and oils have similar features as rifles and ammunition.

I can take two well crafted .22 rifles, feed them the same brand of ammo, and get different results. One will shoot a little better than the other. I can then switch brands of ammo, and the results could be reversed. Nothing wrong with either rifle or even either brand of ammo. It is one of those little mysteries of life.

Indeed, all oils are not created equally. They are a chemistry of various base oil classifications and a witch's brew of additives that make upwards of 20% of any motor oil. Many times, it is the additives that actually make the difference.

Motors and oils are similar. All the major brands of oils, and even store label brands, are very good oils. Most modern motors are good to great quality. But the interaction between a particular brand of motor and brand of oil may not be ideal. That is why I don't really get into the brand loyalty game. In fact, I use 5 different brands of oils for my various applications. Mobil, Schaeffer, Pennzoil, Amsoil, and Chevron. Each one bringing something special to the party that my various motors like.

Find a oil that delivers great results for you and stick with it.

[Mad Cow]

Originally Posted by DieselDrax

I'm well aware of how viscosity and oil works, I pointed out your different usages of "w" because people that DON'T understand oils will see your wording and become confused because they don't know any better and because the way you're using "w" to mean "weight" is incorrect when you're talking about standards. If you want to make sure you're not causing confusion, say SAE 10w and SAE 30.

"10w" means the same thing whether it's by itself or used with the whole multi-vis rating such as "10w-30". The W-ratings are actual oil grades defined by the SAE J300 specification.

Sorry for derailing the thread a little, I just don't want someone to come along and think "20w" in "20w-50" and your "20w" when you mean "Xw-20" are the same thing when they aren't.

Understood your intent DD. It was a good call. Some of us forget that others who read our dribble might not be up to speed on all this mind numbing stuff. Sometimes, I wish I weren't! I have had to be more in tune with the nuances mostly because of my business lubrication needs. Ahhh, my kingdom for a simpler life sometimes.

[tx333]

My 2 cents. As an old school ag and industrial equipment mechanic I would use the Ford recommendation 5-20. Newer engines have much tighter tolerances than the old stuff. I have an F350 gasser for towing and I use 5-20. Because I do tow 8000Lb +, I use full synthetic as it does not break down under hi temps like conventional oil.

[DieselDrax]

Originally Posted by Mad Cow

Understood your intent DD. It was a good call. Some of us forget that others who read our dribble might not be up to speed on all this mind numbing stuff. Sometimes, I wish I weren't! I have had to be more in tune with the nuances mostly because of my business lubrication needs. Ahhh, my kingdom for a simpler life sometimes.

Indeed, no worries. I have to explain things in simpler terms to people at work every day and they like to ask questions, so I try and be as unambiguous as possible in order to save time and avoid unnecessary questions.

Have a good one!

[Mad Cow]

Originally Posted by tx333

My 2 cents. As an old school ag and industrial equipment mechanic I would use the Ford recommendation 5-20. Newer engines have much tighter tolerances that the old stuff. I have an F350 gasser for towing and I use 5-20. Because I do tow 8000Lb +, I use full synthetic as it does not break down under hi temps like conventional oil.

I have to take some exception. Modern engines do not have tighter "tolerances". Some do have narrower, or more uniform, clearances between components or narrower oil flow channels. the key thing about modern motor components is the uniformity in production thanks to CNC machining that is better than production methods in past years.

And even then, the tightest clearances of modern motors are in the 3-4 micron range. And all direct contact pressure components like cams to rockers, lifters, or valves, or gear to gear, etc... the same clearances were in an old Ford flathead 8, the 1960's Chevy 327, or a modern Corvette or Dodge Viper motor.... no clearance at all except what the oil offers as a layer between them.

Any motor oil, even a 50 weight, will filter thru a 1-2 micron bypass oil filter with no problem.

[tx333]

Originally Posted by Mad Cow

I have to take some exception. Modern engines do not have tighter "tolerances". Some do have narrower, or more uniform, clearances between components or narrower oil flow channels. the key thing about modern motor components is the uniformity in production thanks to CNC machining that is better than production methods in past years.

And even then, the tightest clearances of modern motors are in the 3-4 micron range. And all direct contact pressure components like cams to rockers, lifters, or valves, or gear to gear, etc... the same clearances were in an old Ford flathead 8, the 1960's Chevy 327, or a modern Corvette or Dodge Viper motor.... no clearance at all except what the oil offers as a layer between them.

Any motor oil, even a 50 weight, will filter thru a 1-2 micron bypass oil filter with no problem.

For what it’s worth. I’ve rebuilt a lot of engines over the years. It would seem perhaps you have also been inside engines. The tolerance range in those old ‘50’s-60’s-70’s was typically wider and measured on .001”. Engines in 2000’s up typically have had less tolerance range and measured in .0001” (or microns, 25.4 microns = .001”) Certainly machining is much more precise today allowing for less tolerance range as well as clearances in some engines, part of the reason for lower viscosity oil requirements. And of course direct contact components have zero clearance, that is the design intent. The tighter tolerances have created engines that often last longer than old school engines. Tolerance isn’t clearance it’s the range of clearance. Each engines clearance requirements varies based on the engineering and intended purpose of the engine. The first time I re-cammed a Honda the tight tolerance range as well as the tight clearance for cam bearings required fitting different cams to the head.

[Mad Cow]

Originally Posted by tx333

For what it’s worth. I’ve rebuilt a lot of engines over the years. It would seem perhaps you have also been inside engines. The tolerance range in those old ‘50’s-60’s-70’s was typically wider and measured on .001”. Engines in 2000’s up typically have had less tolerance range and measured in .0001” (or microns, 25.4 microns = .001”) Certainly machining is much more precise today allowing for less tolerance range as well as clearances in some engines, part of the reason for lower viscosity oil requirements. And of course direct contact components have zero clearance, that is the design intent. The tighter tolerances have created engines that often last longer than old school engines. Tolerance isn’t clearance it’s the range of clearance. Each engines clearance requirements varies based on the engineering and intended purpose of the engine. The first time I re-cammed a Honda the tight tolerance range as well as the tight clearance for cam bearings required fitting different cams to the head.

It is a balancing act. As you are aware, one of the main functions of a motor oil is cooling. One has to balance the flow of oil thru stuff in a way that it does not move too quickly thru the components and not provide adequate lubrication, but also, it must move quickly enough to cool the components also.

And the cold flow rating has very little to do with that when the motor is under a working load. At operating temperature, a 0w20, 5w20, or a straight 20 are all 20 weight oils the a viscosity of roughly 8-9 cSt.

And in that regard, no dealer or OEM can tell the difference between a 0w20 or 5w20 or straight 20 weight. likewise, they cannot tell the difference between a 0w30, 5w30, 10w30, or straight 30 weight. It just isn't possible to tell that without a testing to a level that would be more expensive than just doing the repair. No UOA sampling lab on the planet can tell the difference. They can show a difference between a 20 weight and 30 weight, but that is about it.

And given that there is only a 3 point cSt difference between a 20 weight and a 30 weight oil, in all but extremely rare situations, the motor is not going to know the difference. And to a lab, a result that showed the oil at a 30 weight viscosity could be due to the 20 weight thickening due to NOACK volatility (burn off). And a the lab result showing the sample is a 20 weight could be from a 30 weight that has sheered or from fuel dilution. The latter will show up in the sample if tested for fuel dilution, but the sheering will not.

IOW, folks need to not get their paranoia gland inflamed worrying about if the oil is a 20 weight or a 30 weight. The argument some have made regarding EPA fuel economy stuff as the reason some OEM's recommend a 20 weight is valid. The OEM's need to get the highest mpg numbers they can to keep the government off their back, and will use the lightest viscosity oil they can to achieve those mpg numbers and not grenade the motor, but also they are required by regulation to only recommend the oil viscosity that they use to obtain those numbers. The buyer gets stuck with dealing with it.

[JoelMarc]

As an ASE Master Certified Tech for over 30 years, Ford REQUIRES ONLY 5W20 Synthetic Blend motor oil with the API rating of SN for your truck. The only alternative is a full synthetic in the same flavor. Playing around with what you think will be better is a dangerous game. If it was safe it would be listed. Don't assume you know more than the engineers who designed it.

[Wicked Ace]

Ford has spec 5-20 for over 15 years now and you don't hear of engine failures as a rule. Longevity of engine life is the prevailing theme these days. Do remember to change your oil. In a '15 Eco pulling frequently is severe duty so don't depend on the oil life monitor. Also give it the best you can, full synthetic oil. Brand isn't an issue as they are all good, heck even Quaker State has gotten top ratings in recent years for theirs. 5000 mile change interval, full synthetic and new filter, you are good to go!
If you want to get into discussion about the minute look here:
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forum...s.php?ubb=cfrm


As a note, if you are in the habit of letting others do your oil changes be sure to ask just what exactly it is you are getting. Ford dealers use a synthetic blend as their mainstay, most probably Kendall. I have my thoughts on that.

[Velosprout]

Use the manufacturer recommended viscosity Motorcraft oil.

[Mad Cow]

Originally Posted by JoelMarc

As an ASE Master Certified Tech for over 30 years, Ford REQUIRES ONLY 5W20 Synthetic Blend motor oil with the API rating of SN for your truck. The only alternative is a full synthetic in the same flavor. Playing around with what you think will be better is a dangerous game. If it was safe it would be listed. Don't assume you know more than the engineers who designed it.

Something they didn’t tell you when you got your certificate. If Ford REQUIRES a particular oil, by law they have to provide it free of charge to the owner. Else, all they can do is recommend a particular oil. Any SN is the add pack specification by API. SN come in both 20 weight and 30 weight varieties.

[JoelMarc]

Ford does not require a specific brand. If they did then they would have to give it to you.

[Mad Cow]

Originally Posted by JoelMarc

Ford does not require a specific brand. If they did then they would have to give it to you.

Brand or viscosity. Conventional or synthetic. An OEM can only recommend, not require. If the owner uses something other than what the OEM recommends, it is incumbent upon the OEM to prove that any damage was caused by the oil used, as per the 1975 Warrenty Act. The owner is not liable unless it can be proven. This is all laid out at the consumer division of the Federal Trade Commission.

A OEM of any product is not required by law to offer a warranty. But if they do, they have to meet the regulatory guidelines.

[hookmaster]

Originally Posted by HangDiver

Thanks everyone for the responses. Obviously I'm over thinking this, which is dangerous in that the truck is smarter than I am. I'll stay with the recommended 5W20 oil.

Still much to learn,
Rich J

As a lifelong Ford truck owner, an RV'r, and I have turned wrenches all my life, listen to what everybody else has told you. These new Motors are designed to use the exact oil they recommend and no other. You start putting thicker oil back in and you risk that that oil is actually too thick to get into the places that it needs to lubricate the most, i e., Crank bearings and wrist pins. In the old school days, we would never use any of the factory type oils and always opted for Valvoline or Texaco Havoline oil products but with these new, redesigned, modular type engines, starting with the tritons, we learned quickly that you use what the factory says use and it's always a best case to use the Motorcraft oil and filters as well. That oil is designed to take care of that motor specifically, and the oil filters have the necessary check valves in them to keep oil from bleeding back and having dry starts, more severely than a normal dry startup, if that makes any sense. Several of my vehicles have seen three hundred thousand plus miles with no major problems, other than an aggravating spark plug that wants to break, but I've got the tools to fix that, and they still purr like kittens. Kind of comes down to two things, do what they recommend and if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Just my chime in two cents worth! Best of luck!!

[Iwannacamp]

Originally Posted by Mad Cow

Brand or viscosity. Conventional or synthetic. An OEM can only recommend, not require. If the owner uses something other than what the OEM recommends, it is incumbent upon the OEM to prove that any damage was caused by the oil used, as per the 1975 Warrenty Act. The owner is not liable unless it can be proven. This is all laid out at the consumer division of the Federal Trade Commission.

A OEM of any product is not required by law to offer a warranty. But if they do, they have to meet the regulatory guidelines.

First.... you guys are out of my league on this discussion...

The law you speak of also says if a certain product is required to maintain warranty then it must be provided with the cost of the product.

Another thing I haven't seen mentioned... the metallurgy improvements in the last 30-40 years. Lets face it... fuel and temperature control have the been the best thing to happen to the internal combustion motor.

[DieselDrax]

Originally Posted by Mad Cow

Brand or viscosity. Conventional or synthetic. An OEM can only recommend, not require. If the owner uses something other than what the OEM recommends, it is incumbent upon the OEM to prove that any damage was caused by the oil used, as per the 1975 Warrenty Act. The owner is not liable unless it can be proven. This is all laid out at the consumer division of the Federal Trade Commission.

A OEM of any product is not required by law to offer a warranty. But if they do, they have to meet the regulatory guidelines.

Sorry, you are incorrect here. A warranty can require specific specifications be met. They cannot require that a certain brand be used. For example, there are some engines that require 91 or better octane gas. Under your understanding, the manufacturer would have to pay for your gas because they are requiring something specific.

The MMWA is about consumer protection and the provision you’re referring to has to do with prohibiting tie-in sales where the manufacturer requires you to only use their branded parts for the warranty to remain intact. That is not allowed. They can require certain specifications be met all they want.

For example, Ram says “use only ATF+4 transmission fluid” with some of their transmissions. This is perfectly acceptable because it’s a specification and not a brand. Thinking they must provide something free of charge because they require a certain specification goes WAY beyond what the MMWA is about.