Range Between Fill Ups

[BigH]

Originally Posted by DieselDrax

Well, I’m on my 5th diesel with a couple of those almost having 200k on them when sold. Never had any major issues or repairs.

You’re also ignoring resale value of the diesel. Yes, if you drive the diesel until it dies then resale doesn’t matter but as I said in my post you need to look at resale value to determine how much it will really cost. You can’t just ignore something because it doesn’t fit into your argument.

I'm not ignoring anything. I could have wrote the check for the diesel same as the gas truck I did write it for and I love power/speed...I don't put a golf cart in my toyhauler. My priorities for a tow vehicle are low maintenance, high reliability with as little hassle as possible. Other folks have different priorities like the OP...his is fuel range. There is no beating a diesel for range, power or even longevity...the problem today is everything attached to make the diesel motor compliant is complicated and costs a great deal of money to keep it working.

If I take the $9,000 extra I would have spent on a diesel and invest that money waiting for the 12.5 year (your math) break even point...who will come out ahead?

I'm glad it worked out ok for you, I had an older diesel and it worked out great for me.Today those odds are much are harder to find. My coworker who managed the HD diesel fleet said the numbers on the spreadsheet for operating cost and downtime compared with gas took one meeting with the bean counters...the numbers have proved out every year since the switch. -The downtime was a significant contributor.

[D. J. Schuler]

Get the 3500 or F350 diesel, couple of years you're going to get a 5r anyway - besides a 2500 or F250 will restrict the size of your 5r.

[doc73]

Originally Posted by Lundy

The example of fleet buyers going away from diesels speaks for its self. Research it on FTE Ford Truck Enthusiasts and you will find many articles about fleet dealers changing to gas. That was the research that turned the tide for me. Fleet people are dealing with the financial bottom line which favors the gas in most applications. Here is just a short list of fleet buyers in my area that are going gas.
San Diego Gas & Electric
Edison Power and Water
The Marine Base near us.
Paramount Movie Studios
Too many major construction companies to mention.

The resale value doesn't make up for the added other cost. The price per mile still favors the gas when it is all added up.

I do not have much in the fight but keep in mind fleet management does not keep vehicles long enough to justify the diesel. They might keep them only a few years before selling / trading.

Heck we even lease ambulances and police cars now. 3 years and put the door.

[aceinspp]

Originally Posted by TheGatherer

I bought a 2012 Ford F250 Super Duty CC SB 6.7 diesel and get (at 60mph) 19+ mpg daily driver (I don't have a heavy foot).. when I bought it I put bed liner, ARE cap, and put in a 70 gal. reserve tank giving me 96 gal. of fuel. Pulling my FR TT about 7k lbs loaded I get 12-14 in the flatlands and avg about 11mpg in hills. I can drive from GNV FL to Slidel LA to SanAnt TX to ELPaso TX and have fuel to dirve around TucsonAZ and back to ElPaso. I usually get some fuel in Tucson because we go to Silver City on the way back.. The trip is about 5-6k miles and we boondock at WW (WW has wifi) or rest areas the whole trip.. My best advice is go with a F250 diesel and don't look back...

And when it's time to fuel that size tank and the cost WOW Later RJD

[BandJCarm]

Tastes Diesel
Less Gasoline
Tastes Diesel
Less Gasoline

What? Oh............oh, ok.......sorry, never mind.

[DieselDrax]

Originally Posted by aceinspp

Its about tit for tat Sticker gas or sticker diesel who is going to pay for either one that price now you are still 9 grand more no matter how you look at it. Later RJD

...and as I said, resale is better. The used diesel trucks are not the same price as a used gas truck so you're not eating the entire cost. So again, if you're going to compare purchase price and talk about cost of ownership then you must include resale.

If I paid $9k for the diesel option, towed 5k miles a year, and sold it after 5 years then using my actual previous vehicles as examples ($680/yr fuel savings) and the $7,100 higher resale that means...

Not including fuel savings, the diesel option cost $1,900 and not $9,000.

Factoring in the $3,400 in fuel savings over that 5 years, I'm ahead by $1,500 if I sold after 5 years.

Originally Posted by BigH

I'm not ignoring anything. I could have wrote the check for the diesel same as the gas truck I did write it for and I love power/speed...I don't put a golf cart in my toyhauler. My priorities for a tow vehicle are low maintenance, high reliability with as little hassle as possible. Other folks have different priorities like the OP...his is fuel range. There is no beating a diesel for range, power or even longevity...the problem today is everything attached to make the diesel motor compliant is complicated and costs a great deal of money to keep it working.

If I take the $9,000 extra I would have spent on a diesel and invest that money waiting for the 12.5 year (your math) break even point...who will come out ahead?

I'm glad it worked out ok for you, I had an older diesel and it worked out great for me.Today those odds are much are harder to find. My coworker who managed the HD diesel fleet said the numbers on the spreadsheet for operating cost and downtime compared with gas took one meeting with the bean counters...the numbers have proved out every year since the switch. -The downtime was a significant contributor.

See numbers above. If you don't include resale and only go by break-even then that is true, it will take a while to recover the cost of the diesel option.

However, if you include resale then it's easy to come out ahead after 4-5 years as long as you tow enough. If you don't tow enough then of course it's not going to make sense no matter how you cut it.

Gas works better for some, diesel for others. There is no universally right answer that will apply to everyone.

The DPF and SCR systems on current diesel trucks are pretty dang solid (If you ignore the Titan XD). Again, tow enough and the system won't complain. Too many short trips that mean a regen can't complete and you'll be getting warnings to keep driving or visit the dealer for a forced regen.

Resale matters. You can't ignore it or leave it out of the equation unless you plan to drive the truck into the ground...in which case the diesel will last longer. The rest of the truck, however, likely won't last as long.

[DieselDrax]

Originally Posted by aceinspp

And when it's time to fuel that size tank and the cost WOW Later RJD

Cost per mile, my friend, cost per mile...

If you fill up with 30 gallons every 300 miles...
Or 90 gallons every 900 miles...

It hurts just the same at the end of the trip.

[aceinspp]

Originally Posted by DieselDrax

...and as I said, resale is better. The used diesel trucks are not the same price as a used gas truck so you're not eating the entire cost. So again, if you're going to compare purchase price and talk about cost of ownership then you must include resale.

If I paid $9k for the diesel option, towed 5k miles a year, and sold it after 5 years then using my actual previous vehicles as examples ($680/yr fuel savings) and the $7,100 higher resale that means...

Not including fuel savings, the diesel option cost $1,900 and not $9,000.

Factoring in the $3,400 in fuel savings over that 5 years, I'm ahead by $1,500 if I sold after 5 years.



See numbers above. If you don't include resale and only go by break-even then that is true, it will take a while to recover the cost of the diesel option.

However, if you include resale then it's easy to come out ahead after 4-5 years as long as you tow enough. If you don't tow enough then of course it's not going to make sense no matter how you cut it.

Gas works better for some, diesel for others. There is no universally right answer that will apply to everyone.

The DPF and SCR systems on current diesel trucks are pretty dang solid (If you ignore the Titan XD). Again, tow enough and the system won't complain. Too many short trips that mean a regen can't complete and you'll be getting warnings to keep driving or visit the dealer for a forced regen.

Resale matters. You can't ignore it or leave it out of the equation unless you plan to drive the truck into the ground...in which case the diesel will last longer. The rest of the truck, however, likely won't last as long.

How do you figure resale is better. I trade a gas and get top dollar trade for another gas. You trade for a diesel and get top dollar for trade on another diesel. but your still 9 grand in the hole till the day you stop driving a diesel. Later RJD

[DieselDrax]

Originally Posted by aceinspp

How do you figure resale is better. I trade a gas and get top dollar trade for another gas. You trade for a diesel and get top dollar for trade on another diesel. but your still 9 grand in the hole till the day you stop driving a diesel. Later RJD

Using the same numbers as before...

If I pay $9,000 for the diesel option, tow 5000 miles per year (saving $680/yr in fuel), sell it and get $7,100 more than a gas truck, I'm $1,500 ahead. If I buy another diesel then I'm starting out $1,500 ahead and the diesel option only costs me $7,500.

5 years later I get $7,100 more than a gasser and now I'm $3000 ahead when I buy my next truck.

IF you tow enough then the diesel does make sense. IF you don't then it doesn't.

[doc73]

My diesel was the same price as the gas version. One of the reasons I made the jump.

[BigH]

Originally Posted by DieselDrax

The DPF and SCR systems on current diesel trucks are pretty dang solid (If you ignore the Titan XD). Again, tow enough and the system won't complain. Too many short trips that mean a regen can't complete and you'll be getting warnings to keep driving or visit the dealer for a forced regen.

That was a major concern for the OP...(Some say it is not an issue though)

Originally Posted by DieselDrax

IF you tow enough then the diesel does make sense. IF you don't then it doesn't.

My coworkers 'small' fleet put lots of towing miles on across several states (they bought DEF in 55 gallon drums). The problem is these systems you think are solid starting costing money long before they reached 'high' mileage. What you are ignoring sir is your argument only applies if you don't have to fix anything and the number of folks not having to spend money keeping these systems operating is not great. I disagree on these systems being pretty dang solid. Those systems are the reason why fleets are switching...and staying gas. (and owners like me) They're not doing it to loose money.

[DieselDrax]

Ram Canada tends to have a “no-charge Cummins” promotion once a year. Lucky Canadians.

[Iwannacamp]

Originally Posted by DieselDrax

I hear the same complaints about diesels pretty often...

1. Diesel fuel is more expensive.

It's easy to look at $/gal and stop there, but it comes down to $/mile. If you're not calculating $/mile then you're not looking at the costs correctly.

2. The diesel engine option is so much more money.

That is true, the diesel option does cost more up front but you get a lot of that back when it's time to sell the truck. A diesel truck will always fetch quite a bit more money than its gas counterpart.

3. Diesel maintenance costs a lot more.

It's not as bad as you might think. A 6.6 Duramax takes 10 quarts of oil, if you use conventional oil that is around $35 for oil, synthetic will be around $55. The 6.2 truck engine takes 8.5 quarts, so you're looking at around $30 for a cheap 5w30 dexos1 oil or $45-$50 for a synthetic like Mobil 1. Oil filters are going to be like $10. The oil change interval is the same, up to 7,500 miles. So you're looking at basically a $5-$10 difference every oil change.

The only additional maintenance that a diesel has that a gasser doesn't is the fuel filter. On a 6.6 Duramax that's $32 every 20k miles or so.

So, diesel maintenance costs really aren't much more than gas trucks. If an extra $5-$10 each oil change and $32 every 20k miles is "too expensive" then you should probably sell your trailer.

Back when we had a larger TT, first I towed it with a 1/2-ton Nissan Titan 4x4 V8 and I'd get 6-8mpg towing.

Then I upgraded to a Ram with the 6.7L Cummins and got 10-12mpg towing.

The Titan needed 89 octane to not ping, today's price is $2.68/gal near me.
Diesel at the same station is $2.71/gal.

Figure towing 5,000 miles per year.

Titan - 5000 / 7 = 714 gallons @ $2.68/gal = $1,913 in gas.
Ram - 5000 / 11 = 455 gallons @ $2.71/gal = $1,233 in diesel. A savings of $680.

Now, that's not to say diesel is the best option for everyone but if you're using the truck to tow often then they make a lot of sense. I prefer towing with a diesel not only for the better fuel economy but for the more relaxed driving experience. Listening to a gas V8 scream going up a grade isn't my idea of relaxing.

Do your research, figure out how much each truck will cost per mile, compare resale values of a given truck with a gas and diesel engine to get an idea of how much more you can get when it's time for a new truck, etc.

Some people, like me, love diesels and try to help people understand what to expect. Others don't like diesels or won't take the time to do the math to see if it makes sense. Just take it all in and figure out what works best for you. I will say one more thing and that it's much more expensive to buy the wrong truck than the right truck so it helps if you can buy the right truck the first time.

A friend of mine owns a truck repair shop and has been an HD mechanic since I have known him. He was driving a Cummins 12V or early 24V p/u. He came in one day and had a different truck. I said where is your Dodge? He said I got rid of it. I said why? He said I got tired of the noise. To me it’s funny. A HD diesel mechanic is tired of the noise? Go figure.

The only time I notice the rattle is at the drive-thru or if I am talking to someone outside the vehicle is running. Might as well kill it.

[DieselDrax]

Originally Posted by BigH

That was a major concern for the OP...(Some say it is not an issue though)











My coworkers 'small' fleet put lots of towing miles on across several states (they bought DEF in 55 gallon drums). The problem is these systems you think are solid starting costing money long before they reached 'high' mileage. What you are ignoring sir is your argument only applies if you don't have to fix anything and the number of folks not having to spend money keeping these systems operating is not great. I disagree on these systems being pretty dang solid. Those systems are the reason why fleets are switching...and staying gas. (and owners like me) They're not doing it to loose money.

Fleets replace vehicles after a few years, there is NO reason they should be paying anything to have the systems fixed if they’re having issues. The powertrain and emissions warranties are pretty much guaranteed to last longer than a company keeps a fleet vehicle.

I’ve owned two diesels with DPF and one with both DPF and SCR. The DPF-only truck had almost 70k when sold and no emissions problems. My current truck has had no problems either, but I only have 5,600 miles on it.

Yes, some people have problems. No, the majority don’t have problems. I’ve been a diesel owner since the 1990s.

I’m not going to pretend to know why fleets are changing, but your reasoning doesn’t hold water if you think it has to do with repair costs with the diesels. They all have a warranty that covers those parts.

[DieselDrax]

Originally Posted by Iwannacamp

A friend of mine owns a truck repair shop and has been an HD mechanic since I have known him. He was driving a Cummins 12V or early 24V p/u. He came in one day and had a different truck. I said where is your Dodge? He said I got rid of it. I said why? He said I got tired of the noise. To me it’s funny. A HD diesel mechanic is tired of the noise? Go figure.

The only time I notice the rattle is at the drive-thru or if I am talking to someone outside the vehicle is running. Might as well kill it.

I had a 12v Cummins as well, had to turn it off in the drive-thru or they couldn’t hear me. I remember those days well. Haha. The rest of the time it wasn’t overly loud and the common-rail engines are so much quieter it’s crazy. Some of them you can hardly tell it’s a diesel.

[doc73]

I always thought the Cummins were pretty loud then they go and put the louder exhaust on them.. My Chevy is almost silent.

[BigH]

Originally Posted by DieselDrax

Fleets replace vehicles after a few years, there is NO reason they should be paying anything to have the systems fixed if they’re having issues. The powertrain and emissions warranties are pretty much guaranteed to last longer than a company keeps a fleet vehicle.

I’ve owned two diesels with DPF and one with both DPF and SCR. The DPF-only truck had almost 70k when sold and no emissions problems. My current truck has had no problems either, but I only have 5,600 miles on it.

Yes, some people have problems. No, the majority don’t have problems. I’ve been a diesel owner since the 1990s.

I’m not going to pretend to know why fleets are changing, but your reasoning doesn’t hold water if you think it has to do with repair costs with the diesels. They all have a warranty that covers those parts.

Warranties have time and mileage limits. Not all fleets are changing out vehicles every 3 years. My coworkers fleet didn't. The construction company that does work for my company doesn't either...they dumped their first year 6.7's and still have the 6.2 gassers.

Pretend? You don't have to pretend to know why. You don't have to take my word for it. If you think these companies are switching to loose money I've got a paypal account you can make a donation too.

[DieselDrax]

Originally Posted by BigH

Warranties have time and mileage limits. Not all fleets are changing out vehicles every 3 years. My coworkers fleet didn't. The construction company that does work for my company doesn't either...they dumped their first year 6.7's and still have the 6.2 gassers.



Pretend? You don't have to pretend to know why. You don't have to take my word for it. If you think these companies are switching to loose money I've got a paypal account you can make a donation too.

I’m not saying they don’t have reasons, but you can’t compare fleet use to those of us towing. High idle time and a lot of short trips? Don’t get a diesel, you’ll be in regen all the time and have problems.

I might as well start comparing my diesel truck use to the class 8 OTR trucks, that would make about as much sense as comparing us to fleet use.

You want real-world experiences then talk to the people that use their trucks in the same way you do. If you’re saying you use your truck the same way that fleet vehicles are used that’s fine. I don’t use my vehicles that way and I’m not going to use them as a comparison because it’s invalid to me.

[BigH]

Maybe if we tell them about the resale value...

[Oaklevel]

This has turned into a gas diesel debate .......again........... trade you diesel so I can get a newer one.........

My 1st ford diesel 2 transmissions traded brought a new 7.3 replaced 4 transmissions in 112K miles decided to go gas got a hemi 7-8 MPG towing 6K and 13MPG solo.......... no issues...........

bought the 5.9 Cummins 7 years ago, 12 MPG towing 14K about 20MPG solo, oil changes $65, a couple fuel filters replaced $100 ea, water pump $125, 2 batteries (about due again after 7 years) ..................... tires replaced the "P" rated that were on it, (7 years about timed out), have replaced the front tires again, it had the 5th wheel rails in the bed........ When ya all get ready to trade I give ya 16.5K like I did my current truck..... I'll keep a diesel.