Sales vs towing knowledge

[happycamperab]

hI there,

I am very confused and not to happy after visiting the RV show 2 weeks ago.

I like the forest river products and went to look at and hopefully purchase and Rpod to pull with our 2009 honda pilot which has a tow capacity of 3500 lbs. I knew this would be pretty close to the max I could tow with a safety margin. We like to camp and fish and canoe while we do so and often bring our kids bikes.

We ran into another dealer at the show how assured us we could pull the Viking 17bh which is 2818 dry weight (3626 GVW). I told them I have 2 kids, canoe, etc and the response was "we put these things behind mini vans". So I filled out the financing and was prepared to buy and talk to them in a week when I got back.

Well over that week I am doubting this is safe for my family and am now wondering why they would do this. First of all if my calculations are correct my tongue weight will be far exceeded and I will not be even close to having a 20% safety margin as I have been reading is advise.

Honda tells me not to use a weight D hitch and if I am operating outside the manual my insurance will not cover me.

We love this trailer but I don't want to put my kids at risk by pulling something I shouldn't or is not safe. Is my math off? Is the dealer correct here and this is a safe thing to pull? I am not in a position to pick up a new TV for the sake of a trailer. I have not signed off on the trailer only the financing and taking this into consideration the financing on the trailer is not enough to cover a new truck!

Thoughts? Is it safe to pull this with my family in the pilot?

[BigJohnD]

It sounds like you've done your homework and have pretty much answered the question. If Honda says don't use WD hitch, don't, for reasons you stated. 20% margin is an absolute must, to me anyway. If I can't achieve that, another tow vehicle is in order. I've watched a dealer set up a 43' Mobile Suites to a short bed F-250 several years back. Sure, it'll pull it, but will it stop it, and what happens when that cross wind hits, somebody pulls in front of you etc etc. Too large a trailer will make a rag doll out of a vehicle in a bad situation. Unfortunately, I'd say most dealers don't have a clue. You are very smart in doing your homework and having these concerns. If your gut feeling says don't do it, then don't do it.

Recently my brother in law bought his 43' HL Cyclone, GVWR 18k. He intended to pull this with a short bed Dodge 2500, had plans to beef up suspension, air bags, etc etc. He wouldn't listen to me suggestion upgrading to a 3500 dually, for safety reasons. I finally laid it out there to his wife that if she's willing to go on a suicide mission with him and their 4 kids, go for it but I wouldn't be around them anywhere with that set up. I explained my reasoning behind this since she didn't know one way or the other. She talked, he listened, and he has a new 3500 dually, and he finally came back and said he's glad he made the swap, as even with with dually and cummins, you know that beast is behind you and can feel the cross winds.

[happycamperab]

That puppy is heavier than my pilot lol !

[BigJohnD]

For a little humor, think this set up is overkill? Very small popup with an F-350 for tow vehicle. This is one of our previous tow rigs. This rig was to tow our Mobile Scout fifth wheel, however we owned this popup at the same time, for "roughing it" every now and then. I just think they're cool. However, it did get a few comments and looks in the campground. Talk about a bear to back up when going from a fifth wheel to something you can't hardly see behind you.

[davel1971]

I had to walk away from a salesman at the show I went through Saturday. I was looking at yellow weight sticker when he right away says "half ton towable". I responded, "no its not". We went back and forth for a few minutes before I just left. The empty weight of trailer was almost 10k.

[Mike001]

You really cannot trust anything a salesman tells you at these shows. They want to sell. I always do my own research as you have.

[Toby]

Originally Posted by BigJohnD

For a little humor, think this set up is overkill? Very small popup with an F-350 for tow vehicle. This is one of our previous tow rigs. This rig was to tow our Mobile Scout fifth wheel, however we owned this popup at the same time, for "roughing it" every now and then. I just think they're cool. However, it did get a few comments and looks in the campground. Talk about a bear to back up when going from a fifth wheel to something you can't hardly see behind you.

Hey is that a scorpion by chance?

IMHO - The dealer is trying to make a sale. I would never rely on what the dealer tells me without verification. I would always do my own research. I would also not pull something beyond 70% of my capacity but others might tow at 150% of their capacity.

[BigJohnD]

Hey Toby, that's a Fleetwood Cobalt. I think it was a 2006 or so. Pretty nice for its size. Ended up selling it to a guy to go on a hunting lease. Small and light enough to pull with a decent sized ATV.

[bobfa]

We were sold a 21' Microlite 4500 lbs, at the max of the Honda Pilot 4wd 6 cylinder. It towed but gas mileage was poor and was always shifting down even for the smallest grades. WE bought a F250 diesel and now have a 5th wheeler. If it was a pop up it would be Ok, but trailers to much for it.

[Toby]

Originally Posted by BigJohnD

Hey Toby, that's a Fleetwood Cobalt. I think it was a 2006 or so. Pretty nice for its size. Ended up selling it to a guy to go on a hunting lease. Small and light enough to pull with a decent sized ATV.

Ahh ok. I had a Fleetwood Scorpion S3 that I put my Goldwing on. It towed great! I took it all over the Midwest including Yellowstone. I even had the same AC unit on top. Brings back memories. I sold it to the insurance company after a freak hail storm.

[Herk7769]

Salesman Rules:

1) You get your commission when the customer takes delivery.

2) There is no 2

He does not care if:

1) You EVER make a payment
2) Can actually tow/drive it off the lot
3) Crash half way home

EXCEPTIONS:

While I am sure there are exceptional salesmen out there, I have not found a single one in over 40 years of vehicle buying.

[mhartzel]

I would cancel the sale.

I should have cancelled my purchase 2 years ago due to insufficient towing.

Coachmen Apex 151RBX. GVWR 3890#
1999 Chevy S10 Blazer tow cap 5000#

Yes it could pull it, but never felt safe doing so. Semi's and cross winds made for a white knuckle drive.

We now have a 2011 Silverado and I barely notice it.

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Forest River Forums mobile app

[Kaadk]

We have 2 major dealers in my general area:

Dealer #1:"Sure you can tow this 42' fifth wheel with your 1/2 ton RamBox, let's go inside and sign some papers."

Dealer #2: "This is the only thing I've got on the lot right now that meet your layout needs, but if you insist on towing it I'd recommend beefing up the suspension, towing it with nothing in it and no kids in the vehicle and parking it on a seasonal site. If you really want my recommendation I'd suggest you wait until we get some ultralights back in stock. Let me take your number."

Guess which dealer we bought from.

That being said, we were in for some maintenance and I was chatting about my parent's looking for a minivan towable trailer as an alternative to their park model. Since they're getting older, I was curious what the dealer had that didn't require setup. He said the R-Pod is the only thing even close, and at that somewhat maxed, that a minivan can tow outside of a pop-up/A-Frame.

[jonrjen]

Sad truth to it is that even many new car or truck sales people (management included) don't have that knowledge to share even though the factory provides it for them.

[KMP44]

Originally Posted by happycamperab

We love this trailer but I don't want to put my kids at risk by pulling something I shouldn't or is not safe. Is my math off? Is the dealer correct here and this is a safe thing to pull? I am not in a position to pick up a new TV for the sake of a trailer. I have not signed off on the trailer only the financing and taking this into consideration the financing on the trailer is not enough to cover a new truck!

Thoughts? Is it safe to pull this with my family in the pilot?

One thing that seems almost universal with salesmen, is that they take the empty "brochure weight" of the trailer and compare that to the max tow rating of the tow vehicle and stop there.

However, reading and researching on sites like this, you quickly learn that its not that simple. You need to consider the weight of people and cargo in the tv, the yellow sticker weight plus cargo in the trailer, and the GVWR of the tow vehicle. In many cases, the loaded trailer may be under the max tow rating, but the tongue weight puts the you way over GVWR.

And in towing with these types of vehicles that really aren't designed for heavy loads, the drive train really gets pushed. I ended up putting a new transmission in my Ranger. It was a 5 speed manual and it wan't up to the task of pulling a 2500 lb popup, which was right at its max rating.

If your Honda is rated at around 3500 and they say no WDH, maybe consider something like a popup. It depends on how you camp, where, how often. But some of them, especially the high-wall models offer a lot of space and features at a reasonable weight. Its more setup for sure, but they are much easier to tow, to park, to store and its a way to get out and camp without buying a truck.

But for sure, if you are having doubts about the BH, don't sign. You can always go back later for it, but once you buy it, your looking at a huge hit if it doesn't work with your tow vehicle.

[TeresaInCAL]

Originally Posted by happycamperab

hI there,

I am very confused and not to happy after visiting the RV show 2 weeks ago.

I like the forest river products and went to look at and hopefully purchase and Rpod to pull with our 2009 honda pilot which has a tow capacity of 3500 lbs. I knew this would be pretty close to the max I could tow with a safety margin. We like to camp and fish and canoe while we do so and often bring our kids bikes.

We ran into another dealer at the show how assured us we could pull the Viking 17bh which is 2818 dry weight (3626 GVW). I told them I have 2 kids, canoe, etc and the response was "we put these things behind mini vans". So I filled out the financing and was prepared to buy and talk to them in a week when I got back.

Well over that week I am doubting this is safe for my family and am now wondering why they would do this. First of all if my calculations are correct my tongue weight will be far exceeded and I will not be even close to having a 20% safety margin as I have been reading is advise.

Honda tells me not to use a weight D hitch and if I am operating outside the manual my insurance will not cover me.

We love this trailer but I don't want to put my kids at risk by pulling something I shouldn't or is not safe. Is my math off? Is the dealer correct here and this is a safe thing to pull? I am not in a position to pick up a new TV for the sake of a trailer. I have not signed off on the trailer only the financing and taking this into consideration the financing on the trailer is not enough to cover a new truck!

Thoughts? Is it safe to pull this with my family in the pilot?

You need to listen to your inner voice (guardian angel?) telling you this is a bad idea, and you should stick with the r-pod you wanted.
It's too bad salesmen don't care for the safety of a family, and they should be ashamed of themselves.

[happycamperab]

You know what is really frustrating is they carry both forest river products at the same price. Why would they do that? Something's up I am not aware of.

[Herk7769]

Originally Posted by happycamperab

You know what is really frustrating is they carry both forest river products at the same price. Why would they do that? Something's up I am not aware of.

The REALLY big money comes as "options" after you agree to buy.
Maybe there are more "upgrades" available in the other base model.

[caper]

Salesman Rules:

1) You get your commission when the customer takes delivery.

2) There is no 2

He does not care if:

1) You EVER make a payment
2) Can actually tow/drive it off the lot
3) Crash half way home

EXCEPTIONS:

While I am sure there are exceptional salesmen out there, I have not found a single one in over 40 years of vehicle buying.

Most sale's people act this way. I have to compliment Dee Jay's Rv, they will not sell you a trailer that is too large for your TV. Also Brian at Ingleside, Ontario will point you in the direction of a trailer that is suited for your TV. I have been looking at both dealerships and the first question they ask is what are you towing with. They will be the first to admit that not all 1/2 ton "tow able" trailers can be towed with a 1/2 ton unless factory equipped to handle them.

[bikendan]

the WDH issue with Honda is hotly debated. they discourage a WDH even with their "truck", the Ridgeline. one of the reasons we chose NOT to get the Ridgeline, even though we really loved it.

Honda is the ONLY auto manuf. that is anti-WDH on their vehicles. to me, this indicates that they are NOT confident in towing with their vehicles, short of popups or ones like the Casita, that don't require a WDH.

i have a good friend who tried to tow his small Hybrid TT with their Pilot. he ended up turning around and going back home to use his truck.

your salesman failed to mention payload and frontal area of the Viking, i bet.
that the Viking will probably exceed the recommended frontal area limit of your Pilot. and with the family and stuff in the Pilot, its 3500lbs. towing capacity will be lowered too.

he probably also failed to show you the actual yellow sticker weight, from the factory, which is usually 200lbs.-400lbs. more than the fictional "dry" weight he quoted. which, along with the battery, propane and water, lowers the 791lbs. CCC of the Viking. you could easily only have less than 300lbs. left over for cargo.
it could easily exceed the Pilot's 3500lbs. towing capacity, when loaded.

bottom line is that there's a lot more to towing than just a towing capacity, ESPECIALLY when you're towing with a marginal vehicle like the Pilot.
if it was the later Pilot, i think they have a towing capacity of 4500lbs.
BUT it still doesn't change its limits regarding payload, frontal area limits and the anti-WDH issue.

but i do see many Honda owners who ignore Honda's view of WDH's and use one anyway.