Towing with a 4500 or F-450

[moose074]

I think the reasons people doubt payload stickers are numerous.

1) as mentioned by NMwildcat change in payload from year to year no apparent physical difference.
2) again mentioned above equal equipped 450 has less than a 350. Some 250 have less than 150
3) basically same trucks same running gear different payload buy a lot. The video is found on another thread on this forum.
4) NO federal code (that I have seen listed on sticker.
5) The word “ should “ is used on my sticker
6 based on tire size as it leaves the factory
7) how many time on this forum has someone stated truck actually weighed less than sticker.
8) When people ask for ticket, law, regulations not involving commercial trucks. Well we are still waiting
9) we see hotshot/ commercial drivers hauling very heavy loads going thru weigh stations no problems. When asked they claim weight is regulated by what they registered it for not payload sticker.
10) common sense moms Dodge Dart 900 pounds my fully loaded eco boost 1195. One is way overrated or the other is way underrated
The list can go on but think point is made. This isn’t a validation of the reasons just reasons why people have doubts.

[BigH]

Originally Posted by moose074

I think the reasons people doubt payload stickers are numerous.

1) as mentioned by NMwildcat change in payload from year to year no apparent physical difference.
2) again mentioned above equal equipped 450 has less than a 350. Some 250 have less than 150
3) basically same trucks same running gear different payload buy a lot. The video is found on another thread on this forum.
4) NO federal code (that I have seen listed on sticker.
5) The word “ should “ is used on my sticker
6 based on tire size as it leaves the factory
7) how many time on this forum has someone stated truck actually weighed less than sticker.
8) When people ask for ticket, law, regulations not involving commercial trucks. Well we are still waiting
9) we see hotshot/ commercial drivers hauling very heavy loads going thru weigh stations no problems. When asked they claim weight is regulated by what they registered it for not payload sticker.
10) common sense moms Dodge Dart 900 pounds my fully loaded eco boost 1195. One is way overrated or the other is way underrated
The list can go on but think point is made. This isn’t a validation of the reasons just reasons why people have doubts.

Anecdotal ^...

My truck says 'should never' and the meaning of the word 'should': duty, obligation, correctness...

And yet we have 2500 series trucks with different GVWR's, different rear axle housings with different ratings, different leaf springs. Different GVWR within the same class within class 2 (10k GVWR) and different GVWR within class 3. Why not make all class 2 (10k and under) heavy duty trucks rated at 10K? Because they are not all rated for 10k.

Half tons with different frame thicknesses and assigned lower GVWR to accommodate.

Not all things are apparent. Just because a manufacturer increases payload rating for the next year does not mean they didn't do anything to the truck that you can see. Maybe the engineers underrated it the year before. Maybe they used a slighter thicker frame. Possibly they changed the grade of steel.

Yep, some of these trucks appear the same and some are but clearly and factually (not some anecdotal wishing) they are not all the same. -Advice to others leading them to overloading is foolish and irresponsible.

[NMWildcat]

Originally Posted by BigH

Anecdotal ^...

My truck says 'should never' and the meaning of the word 'should': duty, obligation, correctness...

And yet we have 2500 series trucks with different GVWR's, different rear axle housings with different ratings, different leaf springs. Different GVWR within the same class within class 2 (10k GVWR) and different GVWR within class 3. Why not make all class 2 (10k and under) heavy duty trucks rated at 10K? Because they are not all rated for 10k.

Half tons with different frame thicknesses and assigned lower GVWR to accommodate.

Not all things are apparent. Just because a manufacturer increases payload rating for the next year does not mean they didn't do anything to the truck that you can see. Maybe the engineers underrated it the year before. Maybe they used a slighter thicker frame. Possibly they changed the grade of steel.

Yep, some of these trucks appear the same and some are but clearly and factually (not some anecdotal wishing) they are not all the same. -Advice to others leading them to overloading is foolish and irresponsible.

Ah, and the rabbit hope deepens. I don't think anybody advised anyone to overload a vehicle, those are your words. I see several posts not to take every sticker value at face value, just use logic, common sense, and decide for yourself what you want to believe. If only the world was clearly black and white and we could actually believe every 'official' sticker.......

[BigH]

Originally Posted by NMWildcat

Ah, and the rabbit hope deepens. I don't think anybody advised anyone to overload a vehicle, those are your words. I see several posts not to take every sticker value at face value, just use logic, common sense, and decide for yourself what you want to believe. If only the world was clearly black and white and we could actually believe every 'official' sticker.......

I don't recall anyone (on this thread) advising someone to overload a vehicle. What I said was this:-Advice to others leading them to overloading is foolish and irresponsible. Key word leading...

Take moose's F150 with an 1150 payload rating...I'd be willing to bet that truck is 2.7 liter with the thin frame. Ford thinned the frame to save weight and up the mpg rating and lowered the GVWR. Why didn't they keep the GVWR the same as the other F150's? Because it didn't rate it.

Back to 'leading' others. You sir cast doubt on the sticker and want to leave it to common sense and logic...irresponsible IMO.

Feel free to tell us which vehicles don't have to adhere to the sticker on the door because common sense and logic are better at determining payload.

[NMWildcat]

Originally Posted by BigH

I don't recall anyone (on this thread) advising someone to overload a vehicle. What I said was this:-Advice to others leading them to overloading is foolish and irresponsible. Key word leading...

Take moose's F150 with an 1150 payload rating...I'd be willing to bet that truck is 2.7 liter with the thin frame. Ford thinned the frame to save weight and up the mpg rating and lowered the GVWR. Why didn't they keep the GVWR the same as the other F150's? Because it didn't rate it.

Back to 'leading' others. You sir cast doubt on the sticker and want to leave it to common sense and logic...irresponsible IMO.

Feel free to tell us which vehicles don't have to adhere to the sticker on the door because common sense and logic are better at determining payload.

'leading'.......Symantics. Time to ignore your posts and name calling......

[BigH]

Originally Posted by NMWildcat

'leading'.......Symantics. Time to ignore your posts and name calling......

Hmm...I missed the name calling but if you are not capable or unwilling to continue the conversation so be it.

Good day sir.

[moose074]

No the payload on the Dart was real, while I believe the payload on my 3.5 eco was around 1200 it is a made up number that I used in the previous post. I don’t believe Ford basis the thickness of if frames based on engine configuration, but rather create a thicker frame for hdpp . I know my ram 1500 with the 3.6 has about a 400 pound heavier payload 1900 than a coworkers 1500 with the 5.7. Other the the engine he has clothe seats and I have vynle. Same concept on 3/4 ton and 1 ton truck diesel gets you more towing capacity gas gets you higher payload.

My post was a logical response to why others might lead others to believe that it’s ok to be overloaded , if the payload sticker was as important to the safety of the occupants and those around, when vehicle was in use. Then I imagine that dealers would have a “ payload disclosure “ form at time of purchase. Payload clearly printed on form with your signature next to it. Rv dealers wouldn’t be allowed to let you drive off with out checking your weight and payload. ( much like a bartender can be held liable for serving over intoxicated people) These would be government mandates not business decisions. Questions on your drivers license test about payload and where to find the sticker so one could safely operate their vehicle.

Having read many of NMwilcat responses I believe he grew up on a ranch or farm. Most ranchers /farmers use the tool at hand to get the job done. I would venture to say that ranchers and farmers use common sense to get the job done on a daily basis and as a whole they die from old age or bad health not accidents.

Many people see the payload sticker like the warnings on a chainsaw “ don’t stop blade with hand” It’s there to keep the manufacturers safe.

[BigH]

Originally Posted by moose074

No the payload on the Dart was real, while I believe the payload on my 3.5 eco was around 1200 it is a made up number that I used in the previous post. I don’t believe Ford basis the thickness of if frames based on engine configuration, but rather create a thicker frame for hdpp .

You don't have to believe, you can research and see what configurations Ford assigns a lower GVWR with a thinner frame for yourself. The thinner frame gets a lower GVWR and last time I looked it was not available with all motors... You are partially correct about the HDPP...it does get the thicker frame but so do other configurations without HDPP.

Originally Posted by moose074

My post was a logical response to why others might lead others to believe that it’s ok to be overloaded , if the payload sticker was as important to the safety of the occupants and those around, when vehicle was in use. Then I imagine that dealers would have a “ payload disclosure “ form at time of purchase. Payload clearly printed on form with your signature next to it. Rv dealers wouldn’t be allowed to let you drive off with out checking your weight and payload. ( much like a bartender can be held liable for serving over intoxicated people) These would be government mandates not business decisions. Questions on your drivers license test about payload and where to find the sticker so one could safely operate their vehicle.

I don't see any logic in your list... I see anecdotal evidence, reliance on what other people do or say, not understanding the definition of the word 'should', use of words such as: 'no apparent difference', 'basically the same' and a comparison to a car in order to justify a belief on how a truck is 'underrated'.

Sir, 'imagining' things related to a 'payload disclosure form' or holding another entity responsible (dealers) is ridiculous. -The 'government mandate' is where the owners manual of your truck tells you overloading is unsafe operation. Show common sense by understanding how to operate YOUR vehicle...read the owners manual. It tells you how to load/tow and operate safely, it also tells you where to find the limiting numbers for that vehicle. It is not the responsibility of someone else to understand YOUR vehicle's limitations...it is the vehicles operator and the manual tells you to abide by the payload and towing numbers.

Originally Posted by moose074

Having read many of NMwilcat responses I believe he grew up on a ranch or farm. Most ranchers /farmers use the tool at hand to get the job done. I would venture to say that ranchers and farmers use common sense to get the job done on a daily basis and as a whole they die from old age or bad health not accidents.

Many people see the payload sticker like the warnings on a chainsaw “ don’t stop blade with hand” It’s there to keep the manufacturers safe.

The CDC says you are wrong about your beliefs on farmers.
https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/aginjury/default.html

According to data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics in 2017, farmers had the distinction of having the 7th most dangerous job in the US. This was determined by on the job fatalities/injuries and the leading cause of death is from overturned tractors (I read that as operating equipment in an unsafe manner...not the best group to praise for using common sense and the 'tool at hand'. ):

[moose074]

I didn’t say ford did or didn’t assign a lower weight based on frame thickness. I just stated I didn’t believe the thinner frame was because it had a 2.7.

You are correct farming was listed as 7th most dangerous (254 deaths) but as I have been told in the past the devil is in the details. Transportation incidents was listed as number one reason. I imagine some was being overloaded, but I also imagine it’s the farmer taking public road and being hit by other cars. I imagine long hours sleep deprivation during certain times of years. I imagine farming being a rural occupation that time for medical treatment to arrive. Mostly if you look at almost every job on the list it’s a low number of people that “ report” doing the job full time. Skewing results for example we often hear air travel is the safest form of transportation and driving on roads most dangerous but pilots are listed as the 3rd most dangerous job.

Anyway neither one of us is going to change each other’s mind and I am bowing out. I have hijacked the thread enough