Towing with freshwater tank full

[theHookers]

We always travel with water. Been many places where water was unavailable or unusable and even a few places where it was unsafe.

We keep ~ 15 gallons of drinking water in jugs in the trailer as well.

As mentioned above, you can use uni-strut to add support. There are other methods as well.

Here is a thread relating to TT. So, not fiver specific but maybe give you some ideas.

https://www.forestriverforums.com/fo...ng-246726.html

[acadianbob]

IMO a full water tank, in addition to other benefits noted above, also adds stability to the trailer in heavy crosswinds.

[kayakist]

Not sure why, but my fresh water sensors show half full when the water pump acts like the tank is empty. Noticed this the first time I winterized the unit, after opening the tank drain the sensors still read half full. Leaving the drains open when on the road got more water out of the tank and the sensors then read empty. Now knowing this I have to ensure the sensors read close to full or I run out of fresh water on the road.

[Rhumblefish]

Originally Posted by TitanMike

You do realize that offering logic in a debate won't cause one's position to change when their mind is made up.

You mean like quoting manufacturers documentation to not tow with full tanks, or point out the design flaw of tank sag/edge only support, or reports of full tanks dropping out of their frames?

[moose074]

Originally Posted by Rhumblefish

You mean like quoting manufacturers documentation to not tow with full tanks, or point out the design flaw of tank sag/edge only support, or reports of full tanks dropping out of their frames?

Not being argumentative but can you share the manufacturer’s recommendations I am on trailer # 3 and I read my “ manuals “ but I haven’t read anything about freshwater tanks, but after the first trailer I admit I mostly scanned because they aren’t trl specific

[NMWildcat]

Originally Posted by Rhumblefish

You mean like quoting manufacturers documentation to not tow with full tanks, or point out the design flaw of tank sag/edge only support, or reports of full tanks dropping out of their frames?

Seems like this tank problem occurs most frequently in RVs with the ultra lite type designations. And if an RV manual says not to tow with full tanks (like some ultralites) I would walk away immediately. That tells you everything is built 'lite', frames, suspension, tank supports.........

[Rhumblefish]

Originally Posted by moose074

Not being argumentative but can you share the manufacturer’s recommendations I am on trailer # 3 and I read my “ manuals “ but I haven’t read anything about freshwater tanks, but after the first trailer I admit I mostly scanned because they aren’t trl specific

Mostly this was just me being facetious, Moose.

Some manuals take pains to make a statement this, some do not. Recently, one was posted from a Forest River model. Below is the statement in the online version of the 22 owners manuals listed for all Forest River models (this statement was the same for my hybrid, as well as two fifth wheels.. I stopped looking after that, you might want to check for yourself for your own model.).

I tried to collect a few more examples, but the takeaway is that this is one of the most hugely contested issues on this board and others for all owners with onboard fresh water tanks. Forest River seems to be dodging the bullet slightly by saying "You may wish to..."

The two main issues at work, as I see it, are towing performance/cargo capacity and tank design. A third issue seems to be wear and tear on the system, AKA traveling with an empty water system generates a lot less stress on the system than traveling with it full.

Some manuals cite instances of reduced carrying capacity when fresh water (and holding) tanks are filled... and they are right. Tankage on my tiny 235S - including hot water heater - provides for up to 120 gallons of liquids: near as makes no difference to 1,000 lbs. My nominal (not real) CCC is 1,259lbs. Everyone's tankage and CCC are a little different, but you can see where I'm going with this. If i was completely full, I'd have 259lbs worth of capacity left (and that's the BS 'listed' specification, not real world).

Tank design - and how they are supported - is the second major issue. You don't have to search hard for "Tank Fell" to see lots of examples of tanks falling out of their frames across the forum. I believe that the design having only edge supports is actually supposed to accommodate tank belly swell. Real world examples, however, show us that this is not the case. And attempted fixes by owners using unistrut actually displace the problem... now if the tank swells (misplaced or improperly performing vent hose, fill too fast, etc), and there's no room for the belly to expand downward, then the tank will swell upward, potentially adding force against the subfloor/flooring (there are instances of damage shown here, too). Anyone considering adding unistrut to make a solid/flat surface for the water tank to sit on (and this includes me) is risking some amount of upward tank bulge. (I've seen some fabric strapping support that looks like a good idea, too.

Then we get down to what I consider lousy answers that include "It's got a tank and by golly I will use it however I want" or, better, "There's no water where I'm going, so I need to travel with full tanks!" In other words, "feeling facts" and "owner induced issues." These things were designed and (generally) hand-built in a particular way, they will each have their own unique characteristics - some strengths, and some foibles/problematic issues.

However, the two main issues listed impact me in my little 235S a lot differently than you in your Fiver, and it's hard to simplify it all down to a yes/no answer for the "do you travel with your fresh water tank FULL or EMPTY?" question.

The unfortunate answer is "it depends."

Best takeaway might be "travel with as little water as YOU can manage with" (which is another sort of soft answer, but allows each owner to consider what's important to their particular setup and their particular trip.

Just my .02, your mileage may vary. I hope this helps.

[moose074]

Well now I can’t say I didn’t learn anything today, I agree it is legalise they just say weight and mileage but it covers themselves in case a tank drops. Even though I probably shouldn’t I usually tow with grey and black water in tank have a dump a mile from the house I figure the sloshing and extra time breaks every thing down better especially on weekend runs.

[theHookers]

Originally Posted by Rhumblefish

Then we get down to what I consider lousy answers that include "It's got a tank and by golly I will use it however I want" or, better, "There's no water where I'm going, so I need to travel with full tanks!" In other words, "feeling facts" and "owner induced issues." These things were designed and (generally) hand-built in a particular way, they will each have their own unique characteristics - some strengths, and some foibles/problematic.

“Feeling facts” are what you are actually posting in your entire post.

The fact that a RV has a tank is in fact a fact.

You can certainly choose not to travel with water. That is a fact. Others can choose to travel with water either partial or full. That is also a fact.

I have been to two different State parks in two different states that have turned away guests who did not have fresh water because the water in the area was compromised. Fact.

Water not being available where a person chooses to use their RV is also fact.

30 years of RV traveling and we have always traveled with full fresh from home and after dumping when switching camping areas. Fact.

Damn right it’s got a tank, I’m going to use it! Ha ha ha! Yep. Fact.

Feel free to make your own decisions. To claim others answers are bull is not a fact, it’s a feeling.

[Rhumblefish]

Originally Posted by theHookers

Feel free to make your own decisions. To claim others answers are bull is not a fact, it’s a feeling.

Then we agree, Hooker.

I very much said "I consider lousy answers" = a judgement call = a feeling fact on my part. Likewise, "feeling facts" or judgment calls don't make them any less valid - they're just JUDGEMENT (no matter what they're based on: fact or feeling) as opposed to fact. For what it's worth, I think your choices are sound (though it's clear that's probably unimportant at this point). I leave *every opportunity* for every owners to make their own choices. Perhaps you didn't see it. Let me try and point it out to you:

Fact: We have multiple reports of full tanks falling out of their mounts.

Fact: Multiple manufacturers warn - in writing - AGAINST traveling with full tanks. Even Forest River seems to recognize the issue (albeit with softer language).

Fact: Tank sag while traveling with a full load of water provides ENOUGH RISK of tank drop that owners - even you - decide to reinforce with unistrut. (Feeling fact: I think this is a great decision, btw).

Fact: My entire post ends saying "travel with as little water as YOU can manage with" and that "it's up to each owner to consider what's important to their particular setup and their particular trip." Hopefully that was enough room for you to see that JUDGEMENT (and "feeling facts") are called for, specifically in this case. Seeing your umbrage, maybe not.

Lighten up, Francis. I'm not attacking you... I was providing an extended answer to a question from another member, after a joke response to an initial joke response. You, on the other hand, decided to call me out over an issue that you've already decided was problematic (thus proving the first joke response, by the way).

Which leads us to yet another "feeling fact" from me (and, yes, I post a lot of them):

Feeling fact: When a thread becomes about individuals, it ceases to become a place for everyone to participate, interact, learn and enjoy.

Maybe I'm being too preachy here. Not sure I attached you, but it seems like you want to take me to task over my tone, or a choice of words in an extended post. For that, I apologize. It wasn't my intention, nor did I think I was specifically talking about you or your choices. If you want to continue this discussion or yell at me directly some more, I'd suggest we do it in private messages.

Hope this helps.

[Rhumblefish]

Originally Posted by moose074

Well now I can’t say I didn’t learn anything today, I agree it is legalise they just say weight and mileage but it covers themselves in case a tank drops. Even though I probably shouldn’t I usually tow with grey and black water in tank have a dump a mile from the house I figure the sloshing and extra time breaks every thing down better especially on weekend runs.

Agree, Moose. Everyone's got to do what they need to do to travel safely. I think its a shame that these things are *generally* put together in a compromised manner, and that we - as individuals - are left to deal with it.

Likewise, each trip is unique, and sometimes it's impractical/impossible to arrive without water (availability, quality, etc). Every owner has to make the judgment calls on thier own based on their own situation and trip. Can it be obtained close to destination? Should we haul it from home? Can we bring LESS and get by for the time being? Is there a reasonable filling alternative? Etc.

Reinforcing with unistrut seems like a great idea to add a measure of security, providing owners are careful with/aware of upward bulge (there are reports of floors being damaged like this, too).

All great logistical questions, and - as we absolutely know - logistics carry the day. (Speaking of which, the logistics of doing a “road cleanse“ seem to be pretty sound, as long as your tanks aren’t so full as to provide potential for droppage).

Safe travels, friend, and happy camping.

[clarkbre]

Jayco Under Fire for Denying Claim, Insists You Can't Travel with Water in Tanks

[Rhumblefish]

Thanks, Clark.

Seems like Jayco is pulling the same trick as other manufacturers, including Forest River... "Don't travel with full tanks because of X" (when, in reality, Y is the real issue)."

X being "load on your tires," "cargo carrying capacity," and "Handling."

Y being "these things aren't built or secured to the same specifications as other liquid tanks in other vehicles, and - actually - could fall out of your rig."

Caveat Emptor.

[TitanMike]

Originally Posted by Rhumblefish

Thanks, Clark.

Seems like Jayco is pulling the same trick as other manufacturers, including Forest River... "Don't travel with full tanks because of X" (when, in reality, Y is the real issue)."

X being "load on your tires," "cargo carrying capacity," and "Handling."

Y being "these things aren't built or secured to the same specifications as other liquid tanks in other vehicles, and - actually - could fall out of your rig."

Caveat Emptor.

Wonder if the person writing the Jayco manual has ever looked at what is put on trailers. Don't know if Jayco has the same (or similar) sticker on the side of their trailers but here's what Forest River put on the side of mine. Note the:

Cargo-Carrying Capacity is determined with FRESH WATER TANKS FULL AND WASTE TANKS EMPTY
Attachment 274143

[Rhumblefish]

Originally Posted by TitanMike

Cargo-Carrying Capacity is determined with FRESH WATER TANKS FULL AND WASTE TANKS EMPTY

As it applies simply to capacity (from a specifically legal point-of-view), I don't think it matters. This note from a manufacturer doesn't say squat about risk of a tank-drop, just that CCC is diminished by 100% of fresh water capacity, and 0% of waste capacity.

I hate that we live in a litigious world, but it is indeed the world in which we live.

[Tombstone1881]

Risk Management;
If you perform <ACTION>, <BADRESULT> may occur.

Query:
1. What are the odds of <BADRESULT> occurring? 10:1? 1000:1?

2. What is the cost of <BADRESULT>?

THESE are the variables that are radically different per individual:

3. How important is <ACTION> to you?

4. What is the threshold at which the odds of <BADRESULT> occurring outweigh the importance of <ACTION>?

Replace variables with those of your choosing;

ACTION: Smoking
BADRESULT: Cancer

ACTION: Attending that party
BADRESULT: Covid-19

ACTION: Breakfast Sausage
BADRESULT: High Cholesterol/Heart Attack

ACTION: Driving with full tank
BADRESULT: Tank falls out

[Rhumblefish]

well now, I sure do like an occasional pipe, being with friends/family, and sausage, Tombstone. Seems like some of those badresults depend on all kinds of factors.

And what the remedy is from such.

If you GetCancer, can you GetFreeOfIt (at LittleCostToYourself)
If you GetCovid19, will there be NoConsequences
If you DevelopeHighCholesterol, will your DoctorPutYouOnStatins

and if YouTowWithFullTanks(andOneFallsOut) will YouBeAbleToContinueYourTrip (and WillYourWarrantyCoverIt)?

Your point is well taken - and one I make myself: Figure out the risks, decide if the risks are acceptable (to you), and address them accordingly.

Just my .02, your mileage may vary

[Tombstone1881]

Originally Posted by Rhumblefish

well now, I sure do like an occasional pipe, being with friends/family, and sausage, Tombstone. Seems like some of those badresults depend on all kinds of factors.

That's why calculating the odds is an important part of it.

Originally Posted by Rhumblefish

And what the remedy is from such.

That variable is expressed as 'cost', and doesn't only refer to money.

Originally Posted by Rhumblefish

Your point is well taken - and one I make myself: Figure out the risks, decide if the risks are acceptable (to you), and address them accordingly.

That is... a much simpler way of expressing it.

[TitanMike]

Originally Posted by Rhumblefish

As it applies simply to capacity (from a specifically legal point-of-view), I don't think it matters. This note from a manufacturer doesn't say squat about risk of a tank-drop, just that CCC is diminished by 100% of fresh water capacity, and 0% of waste capacity.

I hate that we live in a litigious world, but it is indeed the world in which we live.

I guess the main point is that the manufacturer does imply that the water tanks are designed to carry water as part of the cargo carrying capacity.

As for risk of tank drop, once again have all the anecdotal accounts of "tank drop" been caused by substandard installation at the factory or by operator error where thank mounts have been stressed/broken by improper filling and over pressure?

I actually read one post on this topic, on this forum, where the owner who had his tank drop out admitted that he's filled it improperly.

In the industry I retired from users always blamed the product for failures but rarely if ever blamed their abuse or improper use of the product.

[TitanMike]

Originally Posted by Tombstone1881

Risk Management;
If you perform <ACTION>, <BADRESULT> may occur.

Query:
1. What are the odds of <BADRESULT> occurring? 10:1? 1000:1?

2. What is the cost of <BADRESULT>?

THESE are the variables that are radically different per individual:

3. How important is <ACTION> to you?

4. What is the threshold at which the odds of <BADRESULT> occurring outweigh the importance of <ACTION>?

Replace variables with those of your choosing;

ACTION: Smoking
BADRESULT: Cancer

ACTION: Attending that party
BADRESULT: Covid-19

ACTION: Breakfast Sausage
BADRESULT: High Cholesterol/Heart Attack

ACTION: Driving with full tank
BADRESULT: Tank falls out

Using this logic one should never leave their home or enjoy ANYTHING.