Trailer/Rig Newbie

[pgandw]

NoBo Noob

The last thing I want to do is rain on your parade. I'm going to consider your twin turbo 4 the equivalent of a V6 - I think Ford does, too.

Although the weight police are going to cite me, going over any weight limit by 100lbs or even 200lbs doesn't really matter at the lightweight end of the scale. Vehicle components can generally handle some overload in this weight class. If they didn't, there would be a lot of broken mid and small SUVs laying around. Weights start making a huge difference when you are talking 8,000lbs instead of 4,000lbs - the extra strength needed in frames, axles, suspensions, transmissions, etc., tends to go up the square (or 4x instead of 2x in my example).

Weight isn't the enemy in our tow vehicle class unless climbing an 8% grade, frontal area is. And this is where I think you may get bit.

Earlier today, I returned from a trip to the Black Hills, Ft Robinson Nebraska, and Scott's Bluff Nebraska. We had 25+ mph headwinds on the way home (high wind warnings were posted) to Colorado Springs. I was forced into 4th gear instead of 5th to maintain 70MPH, and sometimes dropped into 3rd. The headwind, when combined with a 6% grade was another gear drop - at times I was turning 5500 RPMs. This is a minivan with a 350HP V6 towing a 3100lb 5' 7" high A-frame pop-up.

If you are trying to pull a full height trailer up I-80 to Lake Tahoe - or similar interstate grades - you are going to have trouble maintaining highway speeds in any kind of headwind. And don't expect to get better than 11-12mpg (I get 13-14 at 72 mph). It sucks winding out in 2nd gear at 40mph.

Pop-ups were made for tow vehicles like mid-size V6 SUVs and minivans. There are 2 reasons I have an A-frame pop-up - I can confortably tow with my minivan, and it fits in the garage. Pop-ups work very well for families - kids at one end, parents at the other.

Read through the reports of people who have tried towing full TTs with V6 SUVs or 3/4 size pickups (Nissan Frontier, Toyota Tacoma, Ford Ranger, Chevy Colorado). A lot of negative stories out there.

Fred W
2019 Flagstaff T21TBHW A-frame
2008 Hyundai Entourage minivan
camping Colorado and adjacent states one weekend at a time

[NoBo_Noob]

Some interesting points about frontal area limits. Ford’s tow guide says the limit for the Explorer (with tow package) is 55 sq ft. That’s definitely smaller than a 8’ wide x 9.8’ tall trailer. But here’s the interesting part, the tow guide shows even the most capable F-150/F-250/F-350/F-450/F-550/F-600 SuperDuty are limited to 60 sq ft (only 5th wheel configurations can get 75 sq ft). Surely these vehicles can and do tow more than pop-ups and A-frames, right?

I did find some references that the frontal surface area limit is used to find the maximum tow rating. For example, the 5300 limit is assuming a frontal area less than 55 sq ft. If you have a larger frontal area, then I’m assuming max weight goes down, but not sure by how much.

The Ford tow guide says this about exceeding the frontal area size limits: “ Frontal Area is the total area in square feet that a moving vehicle and trailer exposes to air resistance. The chart shows the maximum trailer frontal area that must be considered for a vehicle/trailer combination. Exceeding these limitations may significantly reduce the performance of your towing vehicle.” This would explain the significant drop in fuel efficiency and ability to maintain highway speeds up grades.

In the end, I think the frontal area concern is a valid one, but secondary to the gross weight/payload limitations, especially when you consider the frontal area limits of much more capable TVs.

[Tblt44]

I have a couchman 17bh, I have 2 tow vehicles avalanche and a tahoe both 5.3 V8
These smaller single axel trailers will pull that explorer all around on the interstate even with a good ad hitch.
My avalanche has a longer wheel base and 1000 lbs on the tahoe and what a difference in towing
I never feel unsafe with the tahoe, the roads and bigger trucks pull it around a bit constantly.
My guess is a double axel would tow much better.
A pop up is a breeze to tow with a small SUV

[Boomerweps]

I bought an F150 last year. But....
I bought my TT to be towed by my 1998 Explorer V6 tow package rated 5225#. Husky Centerline TS WDH 400-600# bars. 3877# TT GVWR. A bit weak on power but otherwise great towing.
Look for a TT about 4K# GTWR. And yes, frontal area is a huge drag, literally. Learn to not worry about maintaining interstate speed limits. 60-65mph will still get you there soon enough without using even more gas. I'd get 18 mph at 70-75mph not towing. I was lucky to get anything (fractions) over 10 mpg towing at 65mph.

[NoBo_Noob]

Got some updates on our search. We've shifted to looking at the Geo Pro line and really like the 19BH and 20BHS. While we would love the added space and larger dinette of the 20BHS for our family of four, I've been going insane re-racking numbers to see if it's doable. I ended up buying a tongue scale and took it to the dealer to compare the two models against their advertised numbers. Here's what we found:

19BH:
-UVW = 3088# advertised / 3190# actual
-GVWR = 3860#
-Tongue Weight = 360# adv. / 350# act. (2x empty LP tanks, no battery)

20BHS
-UVW = 3513# adv. / 3508# act.
-GVWR = 4455#
-Tongue Weight = 455# adv. / 490# (2x full LP tanks, 1 battery) / 470# (1x full LP tank up front, 1x full LP tank in rear storage, 1 battery)

After speaking to several dealers, there was a lot of confusion on their part about what the advertised tongue weights were based on (GVWR, full tanks and batteries, etc). I called Rockwood directly and they confirmed that their tongue weights are based on a dry trailer, 2 empty LP tanks, and no battery. This matches what I saw in the 19BH.

The 19BH I weighed is about 100# heavier than normal, but it's actual tongue weight is lighter than expected. The 20BHS tongue weight is fairly high, but it went down a decent amount simply by moving one LP tank to the back storage area.

I understand you want to target a tongue weight of 10-15% of the TT weight. What I don't understand, though, is exactly how tongue weight is affected by payload. Assuming I loaded most of my heavier cargo over the trailer's axle, would the tongue weight continue to decrease, or would it increase at a smaller fraction?

The 2020 Explorer has a 5,300# tow rating and a 530# tongue limit. I'm looking to carry about 600# of cargo in the trailer, and I'm several hundred pounds under my GVWR/GCVWR with both trailers including the payload in the vehicle. With the 19BH's lower tongue weight, there's plenty of slop for the tongue weight to change with the cargo.

The 20BHS is already close to the 530# limit, and I'm trying to understand how much it'll increase after I add cargo. I know this is tough to answer since it's also about cargo placement, moment arms, etc. But is it possible to add the cargo while keeping the tongue weight below 530? The GVW of the trailer would be around 4100#, so a 500# tongue weight would still be within the 10-15% window.

Finally, we will be adding a WD hitch for added sway control benefits and load transfer, but I don't believe that will actually address the tongue weight issue. First, the Explorer is a unibody frame, so the WD hitch won't transfer the force as much as it would on a truck frame. Secondly, there isn't a separate rating on the Explorer for a WD hitch.

I know that's a lot of information, but I'm really thankful for all the advice and information you've all provided so far and welcome any more insight you can help shed on this.

[pgandw]

I applaud your work on satisfying the weight concerns. But as I said before, that's not your real problem. But to demonstrate, sit 3 hefty people on the tail of the Explorer, or load 600# of bulk stuff at Home Depot as close to the tailgate as you can. Did anything break? Of course not. And shifting 150-200# back to the front wheels with the WDH will restore your steering and handling without over-stressing your Explorer.

Finally, since the trailers are single axle, you can easily control tongue weight by where and how much cargo you load into the camper. On my A-frame, just removing the spare tire off the tail makes a noticeable difference in tongue weight because of the lever arm.

But what you haven't addressed is where and how you will camp (you may not know) and how you will get there. Are you staying for weeks and taking toys like bicycles and/or kayaks? In that case, 600# cargo might not be realistic. If you are a minimalist camper like us, 300-400# cargo is quite reasonable. Do you need to travel with a full water tank (necessary if boondocking or dry camping off-season in Colorado)? Are you expecting to tow at Interstate speeds (70+mph in the West)? Will you be satisfied grinding up to Emigrant Pass on I-80 in the slow lane at 60mph at 3,500+ RPM, and getting 12 miles per gallon? Looking at the specs, your engine is going to need all the power it has to tow that frontal area at interstate speeds, especially up 6% grades and/or into a 25mph headwind.

Ford says max frontal area of the trailer for the Explorer is 55 sq ft without a performance decrease. Any non-folding camper with inside standing headroom is going to come very close, and that's if you don't include the chassis. The air resistance is by far the biggest part of the towing load, once you get above 20-30 mph. Air resistance goes up the square of the speed, not linearly. You have 2.25 times the towing load when you go 67mph instead of 45mph.

My point is that I doubt you are going to be a happy driver with your rig through Wyoming or even on interstate grades in California. If you stay off the interstates and drive in the 45-55 mph range, you will probably be fine.

just my experiences
Fred W
2019 Flagstaff T21TBHW A-frame
2008 Hyundai Entourage minivan
camping Colorado and adjacent states one weekend at a time
last trip: Black Hills, Badlands, Ft Robinson, Scott's Bluff
next trip: Lake Navajo

[NoBo_Noob]

Unfortunately, we’re having to jump head first into our trip. We’ll be moving across the country for work (west to east), and chose a trailer over flying for multiple reasons.

The routes we’ve got planned have some higher climbs in the beginning (around 7k feet in Arizona), but then stay between 1-3k feet the rest of the way. Once settled in on the east coast, trips will probably include PA, VA, NC, SC, and maybe down to FL in the future. All that is a bit too far down the road to know for sure, though. We’ll also be moving back to the west coast in a few years, but our setup may be different by then.

As for speed, CA law is 55 mph with a trailer, and we’ll probably be hanging out around 55-65 the rest of the way. I’ve also been expecting 8-12 mpg for the trip, but that seems fairly common for most vehicles pulling a full size trailer regardless of engine/drivetrain setup.

Cargo will be pretty light for this trip. The 600# estimate is being very conservative on the high side and mostly includes stuff we don’t want the movers to handle. We aren’t planning on boondocking this trip, but will be keeping several gallons of fresh water for rest stops (planning on about 10 gal or 1/3 full).

[NoBo_Noob]

The choices I’m between right now are:

1) Get the lighter 19BH and save on GVWR and tongue weight, but sacrifice some space for the family and possibly outgrow it in a few years.

2) Get the heavier 20BHS and get a comfortable amount of space for years of camping, but be a lot closer to the margins on everything else until we get our next car/truck (probably two more years from now).

[rsdata]

NoBo_Noob

as much as you want to write about this option or that option I believe that unless you opt for a popup trailer, that once you cross the country with whatever setup you have written about, you will never pull that trailer again with your Explorer. Traveling for 3-6 hours pulling with an overloaded TV is a white knuckle experience that many have written about in these forums and none have written positives about the experience.

Weights add up quickly in the trailering domain and the only way to get out of it is to go bigger.

I know one camper that has crossed the country with his wife a couple of times pulling their under 2000# popup with their '12 Explorer and they have loved the experience. That is not where you are at...

[Reverse_snowbird]

Originally Posted by NoBo_Noob

The choices I’m between right now are:

1) Get the lighter 19BH and save on GVWR and tongue weight, but sacrifice some space for the family and possibly outgrow it in a few years.

I'd get the smaller rig. You're going to be traveling cross country and safety should be your major concern.
Buying for future needs is always a bit tricky. What you think you'll need might change. Plus these rigs change a lot over a few years and you might want those updated features... think led lights, usb charging ports, solar, induction cooktops.... all those were not even a gleam in rv designers eyes when we bought our first tt in 2010.

[NoBo_Noob]

Rsdata, which part are you thinking is overloaded? Even at GVWR on the trailer, and with cargo in the TV, I’m below all the limits on the Explorer by several hundred pounds (GVWR, GRAWR, GCWR). The two closest ones are tongue weight and GCWR when above 7k feet (reduces GCWR by 12%). Most other vehicles run into similar frontal area restrictions as well (the F-350/F-450 are limited to 75 sq ft, and a lot of TTs are around 80 sq ft or more).

[rsdata]

Can you rent that trailer and pull it around for a day or two loaded as you like in the terrain you are going to drive across? You might be able to prove to yourself once and for all if it is adequate for your needs. That is the best advise I can give to you.

[pgandw]

Originally Posted by NoBo_Noob

Unfortunately, we’re having to jump head first into our trip. We’ll be moving across the country for work (west to east), and chose a trailer over flying for multiple reasons.

The routes we’ve got planned have some higher climbs in the beginning (around 7k feet in Arizona), but then stay between 1-3k feet the rest of the way. Once settled in on the east coast, trips will probably include PA, VA, NC, SC, and maybe down to FL in the future. All that is a bit too far down the road to know for sure, though. We’ll also be moving back to the west coast in a few years, but our setup may be different by then.

As for speed, CA law is 55 mph with a trailer, and we’ll probably be hanging out around 55-65 the rest of the way. I’ve also been expecting 8-12 mpg for the trip, but that seems fairly common for most vehicles pulling a full size trailer regardless of engine/drivetrain setup.

Cargo will be pretty light for this trip. The 600# estimate is being very conservative on the high side and mostly includes stuff we don’t want the movers to handle. We aren’t planning on boondocking this trip, but will be keeping several gallons of fresh water for rest stops (planning on about 10 gal or 1/3 full).

Altitude is not going to affect you - and will actually help you - with your turbo engine. Air resistance is noticeably reduced with altitude - my normally aspirated vehicles get at least 10% better mileage both towing and non-towing above 6,000ft (when not climbing in a lower gear). You still keep your power with the turbo, but lose some of the air resistance.

I think you are going to be fine as long as you can tolerate the engine running at RPMs where the engine develops its power. The engine and transmission will run cooler if you let it rev where it should. In my case, DW doesn't like the engine running at 4500 RPM up steep hills when towing. She thinks I am killing the engine.

The southern route cross country has miserably high temps during the summer - watch your gauge and keep your tires well inflated.

I truly hope and pray you have a great move and a great time.

As for your choice, get the camper you like better. There's not going to be that much difference in towing experience from one to the other - the only time you would notice the difference is on a steep or prolonged grade.

Fred W
2019 Flagstaff T21TBHW A-frame
2008 Hyundai Entourage minivan
camping Colorado and adjacent states one weekend at a time

[NoBo_Noob]

Thanks, pgandw. Wish we could have made the move a little earlier in the summer, but military PCS orders have been a mess of late. We’re looking at taking I-40 most of the way and possibly jumping up to the I-70 as we get closer to Kansas to avoid some of the heat.

Looking more and more like the 19BH will be the final choice. I know someone who tows the 20BHS with an Explorer, but he’s mostly in the flatlands and tows infrequently, so not as much stress on the vehicle. I figure the savings in weight/tongue weight will translate to less stress and more enjoyment. After all, what’s the point of an RV if you’re always nervous using it?

[Boomerweps]

Just watch a couple Utube videos on these trailers.
I'd have to recommend the smaller one. It appears the big difference is the slide out on the 20. Yes, more room inside is great on cold or rainy days. But most eat outside and hang out outside whenever possible. Plus, with a slide out, you need to make sure it's cleaned off before retracting. That means a ladder somewhere, either attached or extra stuff to haul.
The closer you are to GCWR, the more towing becomes WORK, that four letter word. Granted initially you are moving for work, but normally camping should be fun and overall relaxing, even the towing experience, IMHO.
Less weight worries, not being close to max specs, too.
All the above was my no slide out decision when I bought my TT.

[Boomerweps]

Another issue with a single slide vs. no slide in similar small TTs, about 500-600# added weight on a single axle.

[DogMan635]

Outstanding welcome to the forum fellow CAMPER

[NoBo_Noob]

We just completed our 10-day trek across the country and figured I’d share some feedback on our experience. To start off, we towed a 2021 Geo Pro 19BH with a 2020 Ford Explorer XLT with the 2.3L.

General weight breakdowns were:

Trailer: ~3650 (1x full LP, 1x empty LP, 1x 12V battery, 10 gal water, WD hitch, food, luggage, camping gear, stuff we didn’t want movers to take)

Explorer: ~5630 (2 adults, 2 kids <10, and some luggage)

Total cargo between TT and TV: 1100

GCVW: 9280

Tongue weight: varied between 420 and 500 based on how we configured luggage and managed tank levels.

Performance: Overall, the Explorer did quite well. We managed an easy 55-65 mph drive across flats and even up 5% grades. Kept around 2000-3300 RPM as well. I could easily get it up to 70 mph but limited my speed because of the trailer’s tires in the 110+ degree heat. Tire pressure got up to 65 PSI and over 135 degrees a few times before we pulled over for a break. Averaged about 10-14 mpg with the best performance in AZ, NM, and TX. The hills in OK, MO, KY, and WV kept us around the 10 mpg range.

We aimed for 280-350 miles per day, and averaged about 6-8hrs of travel time each day. We stopped about every 120 miles for fuel, bathroom breaks, and food, and we could have spent less time on the road had we kept those stops shorter.

Major issues: We really only ran into one issue on the trip—getting Check Engine Lights after climbing some light/moderate hills in AZ and NM. The hills were smaller than some of our earlier ones, but it was considerably hotter, so we figured it had to do with the a/c and being in tow mode. A stop at a Ford dealer and O’Reilly’s told us it was a “P0299 - turbo under pressure” issue. We got the dealer’s blessing that there wasn’t a mechanical
issue, it cleared, and we continued our trip. After a second day of getting the CEL, though, I took the car to another dealer to check again. Turned out the Explorer needed a new PCM software to update its shift points. No more issues after that, and we were able to keep the a/c full blast even going through the Appalachians at 5-6% climbs.

Lessons learned: Having a tongue scale handy was extremely helpful. We could try different cargo/tank configurations and see the impact immediately. It was interesting to see how small changes could have large impacts, and that’s important if you’re working anywhere near a tongue weight limit like we were (530 max). In the end, we could have probably made the larger 20BHS work and really enjoyed the extra space. But, seeing as the 19BH tongue weight was consistently in the mid-400 range, I think we would have been sweating the tongue weight issue even more. We stayed inside the trailer quite a bit more than we expected and it got tight a few times, but that’s more because we seemed to hit every heat advisory and heat warning along our way (heat indexes of 115+ regularly). I think we’ll be more than fine in the 19BH going forward on regular camping trips in the future.

Overall, our success and enjoyment during the trip were because of all of the help and resources on this forum. Thank you all for your advice and recommendations. We had a lot to learn in a very short amount of time, but this forum and the Geo Pro community were huge resources and made that process a lot easier. Thanks again, and happy camping!

[rsdata]

Glad you made it without issue, and thanks for sharing.