Washington state wants to ban gas & diesel

[httntheroad]

Kroger is closing 2 stores in long Beach California. Cause the city council voted a 4 dollar hazard pay.just read about it 20 minutes ago.

[Jfkmk]

Originally Posted by D W

This is laughable. We have friends that live in the Puget Sound area. They tell us that every time the winds blow more than 40 mph the power goes out, sometime for days at a time. It's gotten so common that a main staple of PNW life is a backup generator! I heard their most recent wind storm was on January 13th, which left over 500,000 homes without power. An EV is useless in this situation.

Some towns in California have banned natural gas for new construction, and is expected the entire state will follow. So, when they have another wildfire caused by electrical lines or some other event initiating roving blackouts, they won’t be able to heat or fool their home, refrigerate food, drive their vehicles or use a generator to do any of these things.

[TitanMike]

Originally Posted by aircommuter

Three things, electric cars also have a lead acid battery and the size of the lithium battery is much greater to recycle. As for mileage I live in the mountains and drive a truck. I don’t think that is worked out yet.

Yes, they do have lead acid batteries but mine is not much bigger than a Harley battery.

As for the main battery, something that I don't think many are aware of, it is rebuildable. 200 individual cells that can be replaced as required. You don't have to buy a whole new battery if a few cells are all that need replacing.

Also, lots of prices tossed around regarding the huge expense of a Volt Battery. A replacement battery can be purchased for just over $2,000 from a GM parts source.

[Larry-NC]

Originally Posted by TitanMike

Actually, I get a report monthly via Onstar that tells me how much CO2 I didn't put into the atmosphere.

Fact is my ICE runs so infrequently that the vehicle computer forces it to start just so I will burn a tank of gas per year. A whopping 8-9 gallons

It's a great car for short trips and travel within a 25 mile radius. That covers a huge number of people in most Cities and Towns.

Calculated "mileage" is often over 600mpg. Now just how much CO2 is generated from that small amount of gasoline burned

Mike, you missed the point.

Hybrids and all-electric PHEVs draw electricity produced somewhere else where the greenies can't see it.

It's not solar power (only 2% of that in the US), and it's not wind power (7%). A little bit is hydropower (7%). Some could be nice, clean, nuclear power (20%) but the greenies have mostly stamped out new nuclear plants too. Natural gas (38%) has displaced a good bit of coal (23%) use for electricity generation--much cheaper to produce and transport, probably thanks to fracking.

Mike the real question is "Now just how much pollution is produced at the other end of the wire where you can't see it, when charging your electric vehicle?"

[campers302]

Originally Posted by yukongold

Perhaps this is old news here but I just became aware of it.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/washington...ry?id=75639279

In Washington state, bills were introduced last month into both the House and Senate that would require all new vehicle sales - cars and trucks (trucks under 10K curb weight) - be electric by 2030. Goodbye gas and diesel.

Coupled with GM's announcement last week about moving away - 100% - from gas and diesel in the next 12-14 years and California's ban on gas and diesel by 2035, it seems that the ICE is fated to fade into history. Might take a bit longer but it seems the writing is on the wall.

I think it will have a big impact on RV'ers. EV's are fine for short, around town use but I have serious doubts about pulling a 10K pound trailer 300 miles to my favorite spot. I don't want to have to make a 6 hour stop somewhere half way there to recharge. Multi-state or cross country trips could become nightmares. What would boondockers do? How long would it take that 4 or 5 or even 6K generator to recharge a vehicles batteries? And what is going to power that generator in the first place?

Interesting times ahead.

Best bet is to buy one of the last gas/diesel that you need and keep moving on for another 10-15 years with the one you choose.


Then sweat it.

[Igave]

Given life expectancy of batteries-whatever that will be-I expect the average age of vehicles in wrecking yards may well change. Might be more convenient just to buy a new one. I guess I’ll see many years from now.

[yukongold]

Originally Posted by PodGeek

Lots of interesting articles on the effects of towing on EV range, charging issues, battery weight, etc....

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3...ron-ev-towing/

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...-towing-range/

This is a good one:

https://www.trailerlife.com/towing/t...e-be-electric/

Bottom line for me...we ain't there yet. Not even close.

Thanks for the non-political contribution. This is the type of info and discussion I was hoping for. Interesting - not - that all of the articles mention range, range, range but not one mentions recharging times. Several mention larger battery arrays being needed before EV towing is practical but then fail to mention that larger battery packs require longer charging times. Waiting 6-7 hours to recharge your vehicle in Podunk, NoWhere will seem like a lifetime.

[yukongold]

Originally Posted by CedarCreekWoody

I don't know what your proposed bills cover but the GM announcement pertained only to cars, not trucks, going to all electric with a timeline of 2035 as I recall.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/gm-ev-sales-2035/ dated: Jan 28, 2021
GM is spending $27 billion to develop electric and autonomous vehicles by the end of 2025. The portfolio will include 30 all-electric vehicles globally, offering EVs in all sizes and body styles including fullsize pickup trucks, assorted crossovers, and luxury sedans. In the U.S., 40 percent of models offered will be battery-electric powered.
GM spent $2.2 billion to retool a plant in Hamtramck, Michigan, to build only electric vehicles, including the 2022 GMC Hummer fullsize electric pickup truck.

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/aut...gines-n1256055 dated Jan 28, 2021
Barra has frequently touted GM's plan for “an all-electric future,” recently increasing to 30 the number of pure battery-electric vehicles it will launch by the middle of this decade, but this marks the first time the largest Detroit automaker has set a hard target for completely phasing out gas and diesel engines for all light-duty vehicles, including pickups and SUVs.

[pgandw]

Originally Posted by GFD47

US Army Veteran brings this to mind. Products (other than motor vehicle fuels) made with oil are far too valuable to society for us to waste our finite supply of oil powering ICE's. The sooner we can develop markets for converting solar, wind, hydro (essentially inexhaustible supplies compared to oil) into the means of powering our vehicles the more oil we can conserve for serving mankind in other, more beneficial, ways.

The problem is that solar and wind are very low density energy sources. It takes tremendous amounts of land to concentrate solar and wind energy into enough useful quantities to supply even a small town, much less a large city. Look how big a solar array and battery bank is needed to power one of our "tiny house" campers through all weather conditions. And that's without air conditioning, electric hot water heat, and very limited use of the microwave.

Solar and wind work well for agrarian societies that need energy primarily during the day. Solar and wind are wholly unsuited for cities and large human concentrations unless one accepts destroying the surrounding countryside to support the city (the traditional city state of history). Even then, the inconsistent output of solar and wind power, and the lack of ANY large scale storage mechanisms for electric power further reduce the usefulness of solar and wind.

Without large scale electrical energy storage or reversion to agrarian lifestyles, electrical generators based on carbon fuels or nuclear fission are the only viable technologies today.

Fred W

[TitanMike]

Originally Posted by Larry-NC

Mike, you missed the point.

Hybrids and all-electric PHEVs draw electricity produced somewhere else where the greenies can't see it.

It's not solar power (only 2% of that in the US), and it's not wind power (7%). A little bit is hydropower (7%). Some could be nice, clean, nuclear power (20%) but the greenies have mostly stamped out new nuclear plants too. Natural gas (38%) has displaced a good bit of coal (23%) use for electricity generation--much cheaper to produce and transport, probably thanks to fracking.

Mike the real question is "Now just how much pollution is produced at the other end of the wire where you can't see it, when charging your electric vehicle?"

I guess we're spoiled up here in our corner of the world with all the hydro power we have.

Maybe the rest of the country will start realizing that nuke power doesn't have to be expensive and/or dangerous. The EU has learned this and over 25% of their power generation is from nuclear plants.

[yukongold]

Originally Posted by campers302

Best bet is to buy one of the last gas/diesel that you need and keep moving on for another 10-15 years with the one you choose.

Then sweat it.

Best practical advice, yet. I'm 73 with a 13 y.o. Duramax with <145K miles. It runs like brand new and should last a lot longer than I do. But the effects of EV on the RV world will be real.

[BDenn]

There is also hydrogen. Hydrogen is still in the running for heavy duty vehicles.

[aircommuter]

Originally Posted by TitanMike

Yes, they do have lead acid batteries but mine is not much bigger than a Harley battery.

As for the main battery, something that I don't think many are aware of, it is rebuildable. 200 individual cells that can be replaced as required. You don't have to buy a whole new battery if a few cells are all that need replacing.

Also, lots of prices tossed around regarding the huge expense of a Volt Battery. A replacement battery can be purchased for just over $2,000 from a GM parts source.

Labor included? Plus that’s a small car which is useless to many people. If some cells are bad the other ones aren’t far behind. They all have the same number of cycles. Plus as there is more demand for lithium the higher the price.

[itat]

Originally Posted by BDenn

There is also hydrogen. Hydrogen is still in the running for heavy duty vehicles.

The Fleet manager for the municipality that I work for agrees with you. They are looking seriously at a future where light vehicles - cars, SUVs and pickups (1/2 tons anyway) - will be electric and the heavy equipment will be powered by hydrogen. The challenge is in building the infrastructure both to get those commodities to our fleet maintenance depots and within those facilities. It'll also mean we'll need mechanics who can maintain these new vehicles.

Oil production isn't going to stop. We'll continue to need it for plastics, asphalts and lots of other oil-based products, but burning fossil fuels to power vehicles is going to eventually go the way of the dodo. Companies see profit in the movement to alternative-fueled vehicles now and that will drive research and innovation at an ever faster pace.

[TitanMike]

Originally Posted by aircommuter

Labor included? Plus that’s a small car which is useless to many people. If some cells are bad the other ones aren’t far behind. They all have the same number of cycles. Plus as there is more demand for lithium the higher the price.

Have you ever ridden in one?

My Son is 6' 5" and he fits nicely.

Maybe not practical for a family of 4 with German Shepherd but I find it to be "right sized. Also reduced my monthly gas bill by over $300. A "fill up" with electricity costs me about $1.70 and takes me an average of 55 miles in winter, over 60 in summer. (Warmer weather means less heat for battery required).

It also gets a lot of compliments from passersby's in parking lots.

[TitanMike]

Originally Posted by itat

The Fleet manager for the municipality that I work for agrees with you. They are looking seriously at a future where light vehicles - cars, SUVs and pickups (1/2 tons anyway) - will be electric and the heavy equipment will be powered by hydrogen. The challenge is in building the infrastructure both to get those commodities to our fleet maintenance depots and within those facilities. It'll also mean we'll need mechanics who can maintain these new vehicles.

Oil production isn't going to stop. We'll continue to need it for plastics, asphalts and lots of other oil-based products, but burning fossil fuels to power vehicles is going to eventually go the way of the dodo. Companies see profit in the movement to alternative-fueled vehicles now and that will drive research and innovation at an ever faster pace.

Even when gas/diesel burning cars and light trucks can no longer be sold new it will take a generation or two before the close to 300 million existing vehicles are gone from the roads. 'Oil' isn't going anywhere in our lifetimes.

[itat]

Originally Posted by TitanMike

Even when gas/diesel burning cars and light trucks can no longer be sold new it will take a generation or two before the close to 300 million existing vehicles are gone from the roads. 'Oil' isn't going anywhere in our lifetimes.

Agreed. Remember “regular” leaded fuel? Given the average age of FRF members most of us will be gone by then.

I think that once Engineers improve battery technology such that range is significantly better and charging can be done much faster, the turnover rate will increase. An electric car is significantly cheaper to operate.

[Flybob]

Just a few thing to remember during this discussion.


The same discussions occurred then the gasoline powered vehicle was introduced. Never be good for long distance travel as it would require a service station network that did not exist. That would unlikely occur.



The same discussions occurred when cell phones were first introduced. This concept would require a enormous network of cell towers to be put in place and that is impractical.

[dustman_stx]

Originally Posted by itat

Agreed. Remember “regular” leaded fuel? Given the average age of FRF members most of us will be gone by then.

I think that once Engineers improve battery technology such that range is significantly better and charging can be done much faster, the turnover rate will increase. An electric car is significantly cheaper to operate.

It might be cheaper right now, but what about when electricity costs rise sharply due to transitioning to renewables(much more expensive to produce energy this way) and there is significantly more demand for the components required to produce LiIon batteries? And also don’t forget to calculate in that right now you have the luxury of all taxpayers contributing significantly to your EV purchase. At some point that well will run dry.

[NMWildcat]

I have no doubt ICE vehicles of today's technology will be replaced at some point in the future with a different technology. I just don't think it will be with electric vehicles that resemble the current selection. I am looking forward to see what direction they actually go.