Washington state wants to ban gas & diesel

[TitanMike]

Originally Posted by dustman_stx

It might be cheaper right now, but what about when electricity costs rise sharply due to transitioning to renewables(much more expensive to produce energy this way) and there is significantly more demand for the components required to produce LiIon batteries? And also don’t forget to calculate in that right now you have the luxury of all taxpayers contributing significantly to your EV purchase. At some point that well will run dry.

I guess one could look at it this way.

However, do you remember the early days of personal computers? Early IBM Desktop PC's cost several thousand dollars. And over the next 10 years prices for Desktop computers, with far more "computing power and storage" were selling for a fraction of that. Same for Laptops.

Demand leads to increased R&D and greater manufacturing capabilities which tend to drive prices down. There are so many different battery "chemistries" and variations of each in various stages of development today who knows what the ultimate costs will be. Competition tends to drive them down.

As for the raw materials needed for batteries, there are many known sources already and again, who really knows how much remains undiscovered. Even methods of extraction are advancing rapidly. Only obstacle I see in reading about these sources is the usual political/regulatory/anti anything activism that seems to have become a worldwide pastime.

When it comes to power generation there are some old, and mostly overlooked today, methods of storage in use. Part of the Grand Coulee Dam project involved a storage project where water is pumped from the river during periods of low power usage up into a reservoir. When peaking power is needed that water is released back through the pumps, that now become generators, and the cycle repeats as necessary.

Another trend in Hydroelectric Power Generation is to use smaller generation plants to take advantage of any water flowing "downhill" in pipes from water reservoirs feeding municipal water supplies.

Lastly, "Conservation" has been a large source of power for many utilities. The Utility I get my power from has been heavily promoting conservation with incentives to get rid of inefficient appliances and go to more efficient lighting. When I purchased my Volt and installed a Level II charging station in my garage, I also changed every light in my house to LED's. I also got rid of a 25 year old refrigerator in my Kitchen and an even older one in my garage. A nice new "Energy Star" refrigerator now resides in my kitchen.

Funny thing, my electric bill actually went down even with the car charger.

[aircommuter]

Originally Posted by TitanMike

Have you ever ridden in one?

My Son is 6' 5" and he fits nicely.

Maybe not practical for a family of 4 with German Shepherd but I find it to be "right sized. Also reduced my monthly gas bill by over $300. A "fill up" with electricity costs me about $1.70 and takes me an average of 55 miles in winter, over 60 in summer. (Warmer weather means less heat for battery required).

It also gets a lot of compliments from passersby's in parking lots.

Yes but my son was 6'7" with a large frame and a size 18 shoe. With the drivers seat all the way back it was still too tight. Not much could fit behind the seat either and we are a family of four. 60 miles? That's useless for me. Plus wait until they the taxes on the electricity. Plus there are other costs.
https://www.motor.com/2021/02/buying...lusive-byline/

[PodGeek]

Originally Posted by yukongold

...Interesting - not - that all of the articles mention range, range, range but not one mentions recharging times. Several mention larger battery arrays being needed before EV towing is practical but then fail to mention that larger battery packs require longer charging times. Waiting 6-7 hours to recharge your vehicle in Podunk, NoWhere will seem like a lifetime.

I did quite a bit of web snooping last weekend, and did run in to a couple links that mentioned not only charging times (a major problem that must be addressed) but also the current dearth of pull-through charging stations. The point was made that if one has to unhook to charge on top of long charging times and short ranges the whole EV towing thing will not happen anytime soon.

Another issue is the sheer weight of battery banks sufficient to provide decent ranges.

As has been pointed out elsewhere in this thread we have to have faith that technological advances will make EV towing a reality. Not sure I'll see it in my lifetime, however, and I'm not even 70 yet.

[TitanMike]

Originally Posted by aircommuter

Yes but my son was 6'7" with a large frame and a size 18 shoe. With the drivers seat all the way back it was still too tight. Not much could fit behind the seat either and we are a family of four. 60 miles? That's useless for me. Plus wait until they the taxes on the electricity. Plus there are other costs.
https://www.motor.com/2021/02/buying...lusive-byline/

Then I would say this is definitely not a car for you

[salwolfe]

Originally Posted by Flybob

Just a few thing to remember during this discussion.


The same discussions occurred then the gasoline powered vehicle was introduced. Never be good for long distance travel as it would require a service station network that did not exist. That would unlikely occur.



The same discussions occurred when cell phones were first introduced. This concept would require a enormous network of cell towers to be put in place and that is impractical.

I remember the 1st discussions and how much I was going to miss my horse and wagon. Thanks for jogging the old memory for me.

[Bytesponge]

Originally Posted by NMWildcat

I have no doubt ICE vehicles of today's technology will be replaced at some point in the future with a different technology. I just don't think it will be with electric vehicles that resemble the current selection. I am looking forward to see what direction they actually go.

Maybe Hydrogen, Natural gas, Fuel cell?
Who knows?

[Keystoner]

I've read this entire thread and noticed another part of the puzzle that never seems to get mentioned. All of the alternative means of electric power generation sound wonderful when presenting the arguement yet no one truely supports.

I read with some regularity about protests. Everyone seems to want unlimited power, at limited cost, but not produced anywhere near them. Wind farms destroy the view and kill the birds. Solar farms are ugly, use up valuable real estate, and barbeque the birds. Wave generators destroy the view from the beach side second homes. Hydro electric is only good if you're a boater and nuclear is evil.

So which "Anti" group do we follow and which ones do we ignore. . . Who decides? Perhaps we should use towels instead of hair dryers, hand tools instead of power tools. Oh wait those are too inconvenient and difficult. This never ends. Fast food industry was condemned for killing trees to wrap burgers in paper so they switched to plastic boxes. When the boxes were deemed evil and switched back to paper no one complained about the trees.

Maybe we should take a look at the whole forest instead of a tree here and there.

I'll jump off my soap box now.

[clhjsh]

Came across this study to help put electric vs fuel into perspective.
https://www.manhattan-institute.org/...-reality-check

[ppine]

People do not seem to understand that the shift to Green Energy has already begun. Wind and solar will produce more and more of the power needs in the US for transportation. Not more power plants.

Until Trump rescinded a lot of rules like LED light bulbs, the US had already gone past peak power, In other words our daily power demand was actually declining.

The shift from fossil fuels to Green Energy will take time. It will happen in fits and starts, but it will be facilitated by some government agencies. Just like air pollution control technology, and car fleet mileage requirements.

The US has always had cheap energy. That helps explain why we waste so much of it compared to other countries.

[PodGeek]

Originally Posted by clhjsh

Came across this study to help put electric vs fuel into perspective.
https://www.manhattan-institute.org/...-reality-check

I'd prefer a less biased source, thank you.

[Slow Moon]

Originally Posted by clhjsh

Came across this study to help put electric vs fuel into perspective.
https://www.manhattan-institute.org/...-reality-check

This source, the Manhattan Institute, is a Right Wing Bias "Think Tank" that only exists to serve the Right Wing agenda.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/manha...licy-research/

Not to say it should be dismissed without consideration, but this source will give one side only to support only its side of any issue discussed.

I highly recommend https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/ as a reliable site to help evaluate source bias. It will tell you the biases of both sides and includes a category for "Least Biased" sources, recognizing that ALL sources have some bias, because they ultimately have human beings involved.

[Slow Moon]

Originally Posted by salwolfe

I remember the 1st discussions and how much I was going to miss my horse and wagon. Thanks for jogging the old memory for me.

I remember when LA & London smog literally killed people, but many resisted even the smallest attempts to clean up exhaust. They said it would ruin cars. Now, with 4 times as many cars, the air is better and the cars are WAY, WAY BETTER. Without some regulation, we'd live in a cesspool.

There should be plenty of debate about what to do, and we should not dismiss ideas too quickly simply because they go against our initial bias. I'm sure the solution will be different than most of us think, and it will probably be better than most of us think. We may dread, doubt, and ridicule proposed solutions now, but I doubt in 30 years we will look back and wish we had done nothing.

[Larry-NC]

Originally Posted by Bytesponge

Maybe Hydrogen, Natural gas, Fuel cell?
Who knows?

You forgot compressed air.

See https://zeropollutionmotors.us/
and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3wcJweOd-8

No way around it, though. You can't eliminate pollution; you're just moving it from Point A to Point B.

[mike.t]

"One of the best investments I ever made"
How so RJD?

[TitanMike]

Originally Posted by Slow Moon

I remember when LA & London smog literally killed people, but many resisted even the smallest attempts to clean up exhaust.

I too remember when the fog/smog in London was killing people.

I also remember that MOST of the problem in London came from burning coal. Fireplaces and stoves in houses/apartments burned Bituminous coal that was loaded with impurities. Regulations on coal and "wet" wood burning started kicking in right after WWII in order clear the air and save some lives.

I visited London in 1967 and the air was relatively clean by then.

[NMWildcat]

Just saw where now Ford made basically the same statement as GM about electric vehicles.

[SetauketJeff]

What GM, Ford and the rest are stating is only part of the story. For now, they're selling the EVs. That is NOT the long plan. EV's will last longer and have lower maint. costs. Not a great model if you're in the Manufacturing or Dealership business. With the advances in autonomous driving capabilities, the big automakers are all aiming for a service model, where you have an app and call their car to come for you. They own and maintain the vehicles, and we pay a subscription fee based on "Social Status / Luxury Level" of the vehicle type(s) in our plan, expected use (how often we think we'll need the vehicle(s) so the providers know how many they need and where to stage them), how often you actually use them, and actual miles driven. They're going to the Uber/Lyft model but with driverless electric vehicles. This is NOT science fiction, it is in their future (10 year) business plans.

First to be implemented in densely populated areas, and then out from there. The second shoe will drop once everyone hears the first one, and accepts it as the future.

[TitanMike]

Originally Posted by SetauketJeff

What GM, Ford and the rest are stating is only part of the story. For now, they're selling the EVs. That is NOT the long plan. EV's will last longer and have lower maint. costs. Not a great model if you're in the Manufacturing or Dealership business. With the advances in autonomous driving capabilities, the big automakers are all aiming for a service model, where you have an app and call their car to come for you. They own and maintain the vehicles, and we pay a subscription fee based on "Social Status / Luxury Level" of the vehicle type(s) in our plan, expected use (how often we think we'll need the vehicle(s) so the providers know how many they need and where to stage them), how often you actually use them, and actual miles driven. They're going to the Uber/Lyft model but with driverless electric vehicles. This is NOT science fiction, it is in their future (10 year) business plans.

First to be implemented in densely populated areas, and then out from there. The second shoe will drop once everyone hears the first one, and accepts it as the future.

[Jay2504]

It’s going to take some real charge time improvements for this to work. Has anyone thought that some people just don’t want an EV? Jay

[Jfkmk]

Originally Posted by TitanMike

I guess we're spoiled up here in our corner of the world with all the hydro power we have.

There are negative ecological impacts associated with the damming required for hydro power as well.