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Old 05-18-2019, 12:58 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by BigH View Post
Why estimate?
The amount of tongue weight that requires a tow vehicle to use a wdh is spelled out in black and white in the manual...
BigH,

It's a common sense thing. The manual isn't always as rational as it could be. See this post.

That and people should learn to think for themselves to understand how towing works without just always following some supposed authority. Part of that includes reading the manual of course, but everything should be taken with a grain of salt.

"Believe nothing you hear (read) and only half of what you see."
Nothing is really black and white.

Wes
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Old 05-18-2019, 02:57 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Wes Tausend View Post
BigH,

It's a common sense thing. The manual isn't always as rational as it could be. See this post.

That and people should learn to think for themselves to understand how towing works without just always following some supposed authority. Part of that includes reading the manual of course, but everything should be taken with a grain of salt.

"Believe nothing you hear (read) and only half of what you see."
Nothing is really black and white.

Wes
Agree with you..

Different trailers have different towing characteristics too that can contribute massively to sway. For instance, my small cargo trailer with 4000lbs in it is going to tow completely different than a 9' high x 25ft long house weighing roughly the same. They are two completely different animals.
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Old 05-18-2019, 03:22 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wes Tausend View Post
BigH,

It's a common sense thing. The manual isn't always as rational as it could be. See this post.

That and people should learn to think for themselves to understand how towing works without just always following some supposed authority. Part of that includes reading the manual of course, but everything should be taken with a grain of salt.

"Believe nothing you hear (read) and only half of what you see."
Nothing is really black and white.

Wes
Sorry, Wes...these matters cannot be left up to common sense. There was a post on the front page of this site earlier about a towing accident and the driver's own description of the events show a complete lack of any sense let alone the common type.

I'm also in compete disagreement about taking the manual with a 'grain of salt'. If someone pulls a popup with a big dually and wants to use a wdh...more power to them...but choosing to use less than what the manual sets as the requirement because it can be taken with a grain of salt is, well, showing a lack of common sense.

Referring to that post you linked: it is crystal clear what the requirements are for towing with that vehicle. What is irrational to you?

The 'supposed authority'? Manuals taken with a 'grain of salt'? Do you spend any time driving with all these people you trust with their common sense?

Yep, there's grey between black and white but once beyond the laid out limits in the manual the line has been crossed.
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Old 05-18-2019, 03:29 PM   #24
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The way I read things he was making the point that the manual isn't a definitive guide. And just because the vehicle owners manual days one is not needed until you hit a specific weight of the trailer.

Maybe I was wrong in that assessment..
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Old 05-18-2019, 03:51 PM   #25
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The way I read things he was making the point that the manual isn't a definitive guide. ...
The manual is a definitive guide. It tells you when a wdh is required.

I've never seen one person on this site tell someone they can't use a wdh before the manual says its required...but I've seen plenty justifying being over payload.
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Old 05-18-2019, 05:00 PM   #26
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The manual is a definitive guide. It tells you when a wdh is required.



I've never seen one person on this site tell someone they can't use a wdh before the manual says its required...but I've seen plenty justifying being over payload.
I'm sorry, but if you're hauling a 20' + camper with a SWB vehicle, you NEED sway control and a WDH.

We can agree to disagree.. that's fine.
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Old 05-18-2019, 05:08 PM   #27
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Just a few questions about the WDH and the LCH.
Is a WDH universally required in all travel trailer and tow vehicle situations?
I understand the purpose of a WDH is to transfer some of the hitch weight to the steering axle of the tow vehicle.
Is there a situation where the travel trailer and it's hitch weight is so light that a WDH isn't needed? Is there a situation where the tow vehicle specifications are so capable (for example, diesel, 1 ton, dually) that a WDH isn't required?
If so, who or what decides when a WDH is or isn't required?
Required all the time NO . your hitch on your TV will tell you max TW with out a WDH and max with . will a WDH help when at the low end say 300 TW and a 3000 lbs TT depends on the TV a 2500 and properly loaded TT doubt you would know the difference and may tow better with out a WDH if a TT is that lite .
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Old 05-18-2019, 05:55 PM   #28
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I'm sorry, but if you're hauling a 20' + camper with a SWB vehicle, you NEED sway control and a WDH.

We can agree to disagree.. that's fine.
I have no idea what you are sorry about or disagreeing with...
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Old 05-18-2019, 06:16 PM   #29
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I have no idea what you are sorry about or disagreeing with...
I'm saying it's not a definitive guide. There are times when you need one and the manual would say it's ok not to have one. I think you're saying it is and it's ok not to run without one if the owners manual says you don't need to have one.

I've got a little experience here.. years ago I had a 2002 Jeep Grand Cherokee that I pulled a pop-up camper with. According to the owners manual I did not need a WDH at my weight (2700lbs). I pulled without one a few times and really struggled with sway and got tired of everyone flashing their headlights at me.

I added a Reese Sway/WDH (Trunnion style) and it made a HUGE difference. No Sway and leveled it out.

Is it ok to not run one when the owners manual says you should? Absolutely not.
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Old 05-18-2019, 06:47 PM   #30
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I'm saying it's not a definitive guide. There are times when you need one and the manual would say it's ok not to have one. I think you're saying it is and it's ok not to run without one if the owners manual says you don't need to have one.

I've got a little experience here.. years ago I had a 2002 Jeep Grand Cherokee that I pulled a pop-up camper with. According to the owners manual I did not need a WDH at my weight (2700lbs). I pulled without one a few times and really struggled with sway and got tired of everyone flashing their headlights at me.

I added a Reese Sway/WDH (Trunnion style) and it made a HUGE difference. No Sway and leveled it out.

Is it ok to not run one when the owners manual says you should? Absolutely not.
I'm saying it is ok to not have a wdh if it is not required.

I'm saying you can use one long before it is required if you think it is necessary.

I'm saying it is not ok to not have one if the manual says you need one.

I'm saying the manual is absolutely definitive, when it says a wdh is required...it is required.

I'm unsure how this is so complicated...
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Old 05-18-2019, 07:16 PM   #31
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I'm saying it is ok to not have a wdh if it is not required.

I'm saying you can use one long before it is required if you think it is necessary.

I'm saying it is not ok to not have one if the manual says you need one.

I'm saying the manual is absolutely definitive, when it says a wdh is required...it is required.

I'm unsure how this is so complicated...
Sounds about right to me . not complicated at all .
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Old 05-18-2019, 07:36 PM   #32
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Sounds fine - IF the manual is definitive. They probably are for Ford, Dodge, GM trucks. But try figuring out anything beyond the maximum trailer weight for a Kia or Hyundai SUV. No tongue weights listed. Even then, the manual says, "when equipped with a factory tow package."



No Kia or Hyundai comes with a factory tow package from the factory - it's a dealer-installed option. And nobody seems to know what's included in the "factory tow package" beyond the hitch. I'm working with a Kia parts manager to try to find out whether or not a transmission cooler is included; whether or not a converter to convert rear orange turn signals to US trailer standard combined tail, brake, and turn lights is included; whether or not provisions for a brake controller are present; whether the "package" wiring harness is for 7 pin or 4 pin.

So saying the manual is definitive only works some of the time. Some common sense and knowledge is required to properly and safely set up towing. And some of what needs to be done depends very much on what you are towing.

Fred W
present tow vehicle: 2008 Hyundai Entourage minivan (3500lb tow rating)
maybe future tow vehicle: 2018 Kia Sorento (5000lb tow rating)
2019 Flagstaff T21TBHW A-frame (GVW = 3350 lbs)
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Old 05-19-2019, 05:24 AM   #33
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Sounds fine - IF the manual is definitive. They probably are for Ford, Dodge, GM trucks. But try figuring out anything beyond the maximum trailer weight for a Kia or Hyundai SUV. No tongue weights listed. Even then, the manual says, "when equipped with a factory tow package."



No Kia or Hyundai comes with a factory tow package from the factory - it's a dealer-installed option. And nobody seems to know what's included in the "factory tow package" beyond the hitch. I'm working with a Kia parts manager to try to find out whether or not a transmission cooler is included; whether or not a converter to convert rear orange turn signals to US trailer standard combined tail, brake, and turn lights is included; whether or not provisions for a brake controller are present; whether the "package" wiring harness is for 7 pin or 4 pin.

So saying the manual is definitive only works some of the time. Some common sense and knowledge is required to properly and safely set up towing. And some of what needs to be done depends very much on what you are towing.

Fred W
present tow vehicle: 2008 Hyundai Entourage minivan (3500lb tow rating)
maybe future tow vehicle: 2018 Kia Sorento (5000lb tow rating)
2019 Flagstaff T21TBHW A-frame (GVW = 3350 lbs)
Your 'dilemma' about the manual is really simple in my mind.


The manufacturer doesn't equip the vehicle for towing from the factory.
The dealer must install equipment so the vehicle can tow.
The dealer doesn't know what parts are included or required.
Either the dealer is inadequate or the information isn't available about the vehicle for a reason...
Common sense says this is not a proper tow vehicle for an rv application.
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Old 05-19-2019, 07:15 AM   #34
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Your 'dilemma' about the manual is really simple in my mind.

The manufacturer doesn't equip the vehicle for towing from the factory.
The dealer must install equipment so the vehicle can tow.
The dealer doesn't know what parts are included or required.
Either the dealer is inadequate or the information isn't available about the vehicle for a reason...
Common sense says this is not a proper tow vehicle for an rv application.
Your common sense is very different from mine. You depend on the factory to tell you what you can and can't do. I take personal responsibility for working within the constraints of the vehicle and good practices to make it a fine tow vehicle. Really simple in my mind, too. Just a different view of things.

The same Kia Sorento (and Kia Sedona - my Hyundai minivan is a re-badged Sedona) is sold the world over with a tow rating, and used for towing. The dealer adapts the tow package for local conditions. Just like an RV dealer provides the battery and battery hookup. Some dealers provide a more complete battery package than others. And some of us choose to ignore the battery package the RV dealer provides and install our own, complete with add-ons like solar, heavier wire, a different converter, etc.

Fred W
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2008 Hyundai Entourage minivan
camping Colorado and adjacent states one weekend at a time
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Old 05-19-2019, 07:51 AM   #35
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Your common sense is very different from mine. You depend on the factory to tell you what you can and can't do.
...And you don't?

I depend on the manufacturer to set limits and I don't go beyond those limits.
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I take personal responsibility for working within the constraints of the vehicle and good practices to make it a fine tow vehicle. Really simple in my mind, too. Just a different view of things.
Who sets the 'constraints for the tow vehicle'? You? With your 'personal responsibility'?
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Old 05-19-2019, 08:09 AM   #36
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There is a Utuber towing a 16-17' TT with a KIA Serrento.
I watched several of his videos but not from a towing standpoint. Latino name but I don't recall it. He toured all over the US. Do a search. Might have some tow tech info in them.
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Old 05-19-2019, 08:41 AM   #37
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There is a Utuber towing a 16-17' TT with a KIA Serrento.
I watched several of his videos but not from a towing standpoint. Latino name but I don't recall it. He toured all over the US. Do a search. Might have some tow tech info in them.
Travelling Robert. Robert Morales. I watch him too.
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Old 05-19-2019, 03:18 PM   #38
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Towing stability physics

...

Ever wonder why trailer sway is likely to occur in the first place?

For any of you nerdish enough to be interested in this sort of knowledge over-kill, we hashed out some deeper aspects of Towing stability physics in another RV forum several years ago. These principles of trailer towing are still relevant.

A very worthy engineer, Full-Timer Ron Gratz, responded with both his own analysis and using a good reference. I think his resolution was that a particular trailer stability ultimately depends largely on an inherent root design thing called the "center of percussion".

We previously had a Travel Trailer (TT), but now have a Coachmen Leprechaun Class C. Harking back to our TT days, there is also a great multi-page explanation on that generic RV site, of how amazing trailer geometry hitches like the Hensley/ProPride operate too.

Other RV sites lack the depth of our Forest River brand specifics that we have here though, so I also have a great appreciation for forestriverforums.com. While I am thinking of it, thank you to the forum staff, Forest River and owners that participate here.

Wes
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Old 05-19-2019, 03:28 PM   #39
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...And you don't?

I depend on the manufacturer to set limits and I don't go beyond those limits.

Who sets the 'constraints for the tow vehicle'? You? With your 'personal responsibility'?
Sometimes, manufacturers do a good job, and sometimes they miss. Chevy Corvairs and Vegas, Ford Pintos, my Ford 1993 Ford Explorer (the EOD transmission in particular), 2012-2013 Ford Escapes with the Ecoboost engine, Nissan CVT transmissions are examples of misses that come to mind. In aviation, the latest Boeing 737s, and back in my days, the accessory drive on GE T58 turboshaft engines. These are examples of bad designs and/or bad factory info on limitations of the design.

You can blindly follow the manufacturer's recommendations and warnings. Or you can work to improve/tweak the factory product for your specific use cases and applications. In support of your position, I assume you would never consider changing the "tune" of your truck, or using tires of a different size than what came standard or factory option.

As I found out, it took Ford years (lots of factory directives and mods) after 1993 to get the shift points of the EOD tranny worked out for Western hills and mountains. Still didn't stop people from blowing the tranny front seals (like I did). But the real work-around was simple - shift the tranny manually when towing. And Boeing didn't bother to tell pilots how to handle malfunctions of its pitch-down system, which compensated for needing to mount the larger engines further forward than in the past. Only killed the passengers in 2 crashes so far. Tunes from 3rd parties are available for vehicles for one reason - they offer better performance or economy in specific use cases.

In the case of my Sorento or Entourage, you claim it's a poor tow vehicle because it doesn't have a complete set of factory tow specs like your Chevy 3/4T. On the contrary, all the anecdotal evidence and my past experience indicates they are better tow vehicles at their rated capacity than most of the competition.

In the world of 3 row SUVs, unfortunately 5K towing capacity is now the norm. Less doesn't sell so well in the US, although most of this class would be a lot happier with a 3500lb trailer max. Of course, as everybody has said, not all 3500lb trailers are equal.

Yes, I am winging it by installing a 4 point mount receiver, using a dialed-in E2 WDH, a Tekonsha Prodigy2 brake controller, and will evaluate the cooling for addition of an aux transmission cooler (wasn't/isn't needed on the minivan). All to tow my 3350lb (max GVW) A-frame with a 400-450lb tongue weight (being single axle, actual tongue weight varies considerably with loading).

Man is not perfect, and therefore there will always be occasions where the rules don't make sense.. If you learn the reason behind the rule in advance, you can make an informed choice when the rule doesn't make sense. That is what I mean by personal responsibility - making informed choices rather than blindly following rules.

Fred W
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Old 05-19-2019, 04:15 PM   #40
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...

In the case of my Sorento or Entourage, you claim it's a poor tow vehicle because it doesn't have a complete set of factory tow specs like your Chevy 3/4T.
Sir, that is not what I said.

If you are within the limits in the manual more power to you but I stand by what I said earlier not your paraphrase.

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On the contrary, all the anecdotal evidence and my past experience indicates they are better tow vehicles at their rated capacity than most of the competition.

Anecdotal evidence...

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That is what I mean by personal responsibility - making informed choices rather than blindly following rules.

Fred W
Fred, if you read my first post on this thread and think I'm uniformed and blindly follow...

Lots of typing about engineering mistakes but since you didn't answer the question I guess that makes it clear enough. Best of luck to you sir.
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