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Old 05-19-2019, 04:22 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Wes Tausend View Post
...

Ever wonder why trailer sway is likely to occur in the first place?

...

Wes
I like the math but some folks might get more from these. (if they haven't seen them already)


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Old 05-20-2019, 03:39 AM   #42
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I like the math but some folks might get more from these. (if they haven't seen them already) (videos)
Some excellent video demo's. Pretty cool.
Thank you BigH, I hadn't seen them before.

It would be interesting to also see the changes in dynamics with different weight and/or wheelbase model tow vehicles. It might, or might not, make less difference than one thinks with all primary stabilities due to trailer design, construction and loading rather than the truck model. Of course in these modeling cases, heavy duty axle, tire and brake ratings aren't a factor either, as they definitely are in real towing.

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Old 05-23-2019, 06:48 PM   #43
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Sounds fine - IF the manual is definitive. They probably are for Ford, Dodge, GM trucks. But try figuring out anything beyond the maximum trailer weight for a Kia or Hyundai SUV. No tongue weights listed. Even then, the manual says, "when equipped with a factory tow package."



No Kia or Hyundai comes with a factory tow package from the factory - it's a dealer-installed option. And nobody seems to know what's included in the "factory tow package" beyond the hitch. I'm working with a Kia parts manager to try to find out whether or not a transmission cooler is included; whether or not a converter to convert rear orange turn signals to US trailer standard combined tail, brake, and turn lights is included; whether or not provisions for a brake controller are present; whether the "package" wiring harness is for 7 pin or 4 pin.

So saying the manual is definitive only works some of the time. Some common sense and knowledge is required to properly and safely set up towing. And some of what needs to be done depends very much on what you are towing.

Fred W
present tow vehicle: 2008 Hyundai Entourage minivan (3500lb tow rating)
maybe future tow vehicle: 2018 Kia Sorento (5000lb tow rating)
2019 Flagstaff T21TBHW A-frame (GVW = 3350 lbs)
I just learned a very expensive Mistake by buying a 2019 Sorento with a factory tow bar that was rated for 5000 lb. I asked both service and sales person what the tongue weight was and they said 10% of 5000 is 500. Two weeks later go to RV dealer took that a travel trailer said what can I tow with the Kia. They showed me a nice palomini 181 FBS single axle that had a gross vehicle weight of no more than 4400 lb. They said the tongue was only 440 lb. They had it a wdh. Everything seemed fine till I got a little concerned and had my tongue weighed on TT. Surprise with nothing in it it was almost 600 lb. They said just add some weight in the back to offset it the best I can get it down to was for 465. And then someone said what does your manual says about tongue weight and guess what it's only rated for 350 lb. Now I am stuck for three years on a lease of a vehicle I cannot use to tow this trailer with and had to run out to get a pickup truck that could handle it. All I can say is research research research.
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Old 05-23-2019, 06:55 PM   #44
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I have and have had around 5000 lb trailers and never needed a wd hitch. I have a 1/2 ton Silverado and the towing has been very stable.
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Old 05-23-2019, 09:01 PM   #45
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And then someone said what does your manual says about tongue weight and guess what it's only rated for 350 lb.
Where did you find the 350lb tongue weight figure for the Sorento? I have not seen/found a tongue weight figure. 350lbs tongue weight seems light for a 5K tow capacity and a payload (door placard) of 1,120lbs.

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Old 05-24-2019, 05:18 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by pgandw View Post
Where did you find the 350lb tongue weight figure for the Sorento? I have not seen/found a tongue weight figure. 350lbs tongue weight seems light for a 5K tow capacity and a payload (door placard) of 1,120lbs.

Fred W
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2008 Hyundai Entourage minivan
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It’s in section 5 page 136
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Old 05-24-2019, 07:11 AM   #47
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I questioned the need of a WDH on another post and got a bunch of different replies. My truck has 18k towing, the hitch that I purchased is rated for 18k, and it tows great without a WDH, so for now, I feel safe and comfortable not having one. Ford says this for my truck:

"Also, there are new 2.5-inch and 3-inch hitch receivers that increases weight-carrying hitch capacity. There is extensive use of high-strength steel in the hitch designs and surrounding structure. The platform extends under the truck frame to create a strong and secure foundation. This eliminates the need for a weight-distributing hitch when towing up to the maximum conventional trailer rating of the truck."
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Old 05-24-2019, 11:10 AM   #48
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Common sense isn't a thing. If it were, we wouldn't have laws, rules, policies, or manuals. We wouldn't need any of those things because of the existence of this so-called common sense. Every time someone invokes common sense, this argument goes off track ... before finally being tied back to objective standards and the debates about them.

The term common sense is the lazy man's crutch that basically means, "I can't be bothered to articulate my thoughts or to find objective data to back my claims, so I'll hand wave those things away by calling it common sense."
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Old 05-24-2019, 11:32 AM   #49
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So, you're saying that unless it's documented somewhere in an owners manual that it is required then it's ok to not try and be as safe as possible?

Manufacturers have an interest in you damaging your vehicle. I don't trust them for the absolute rules of the road when towing.
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Old 05-24-2019, 12:00 PM   #50
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I have and have had around 5000 lb trailers and never needed a wd hitch. I have a 1/2 ton Silverado and the towing has been very stable.
With my 99 Silverado, I towed my 6000# boat that has only 400# of tongue weight with and without a WDH. It's way more stable with a WDH.
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Old 05-24-2019, 12:17 PM   #51
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It’s in section 5 page 136
Thank you. Didn't see the chart when I was going through the towing section earlier.

Fred W
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Old 05-24-2019, 12:26 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by 67L48 View Post
Common sense isn't a thing. If it were, we wouldn't have laws, rules, policies, or manuals. We wouldn't need any of those things because of the existence of this so-called common sense. Every time someone invokes common sense, this argument goes off track ... before finally being tied back to objective standards and the debates about them.

The term common sense is the lazy man's crutch that basically means, "I can't be bothered to articulate my thoughts or to find objective data to back my claims, so I'll hand wave those things away by calling it common sense."
67L48, are you trying to say Common Sense isn't so common?

Wes
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Old 05-24-2019, 01:54 PM   #53
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So, you're saying that unless it's documented somewhere in an owners manual that it is required then it's ok to not try and be as safe as possible?
Who said this? Quote it...

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Manufacturers have an interest in you damaging your vehicle. I don't trust them for the absolute rules of the road when towing.
Riigghht...they just love it when receivers, frames and towing equipment fail from lying about adherence to standards/engineering/manufactruing. The deaths, lawsuits, bad publicity, recalls related to safety involving the NHTSA are just a bonus.

SAE J2807 as told by Truck Trend: http://www.trucktrend.com/how-to/tow...-the-standard/

''Total Control
The truck-and-trailer “Combination Handling Requirements” of J2807 specify minimum performance for understeer and trailer sway response. The tests are designed to determine the limits of the weight carrying, weight distributing, and stability of a fifth-wheel/gooseneck trailer, with the combo at its maximum GCWR. Understeer (the opposite of fishtailing) is measured at three different levels of Front Axle Load Restoration (FALR), which is a calculation of how much the load on the front axle changes. It can sound complicated, but the procedures are designed so you can be assured your truck will not be steered by the weight of the trailer under typical driving conditions even while pulling the maximum tow weight. For example, with a fifth-wheel or gooseneck hitch, the truck/trailer combination is allowed 0 degrees per g of understeer when there are 0.4 g or less of lateral acceleration and an FALR of 0 percent. In addition to the understeer tests, there is a measurement for the maximum sway damping that requires the trailer to move at a ratio of 0.10 or less at 62.1 mph (100 km/h).''
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Old 05-27-2019, 04:31 PM   #54
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I have a question about the receiver .I have a 26 rbws flagstaff my question is I have a ajustable receiver when I hook up at first my back drops when.I put wd bars on it raises a little .Would it be safe to raise the receiver one notice
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Old 05-27-2019, 04:35 PM   #55
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You should set your receiver height so that the ball is at the same height as the trailer coupler when the trailer is level. The more the ball sags from that height when hitched, the more force the WDH bars/chains apply to return the ball to that height.

Fred W
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Old 05-27-2019, 05:44 PM   #56
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You should set your receiver height so that the ball is at the same height as the trailer coupler when the trailer is level. The more the ball sags from that height when hitched, the more force the WDH bars/chains apply to return the ball to that height.

Fred W
I get it as close as possible but with the choice of two holes on the shank, I go the one that makes it higher. My truck already has a rake with the rear higher so it flattens it out.
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Old 05-27-2019, 05:45 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by pgandw View Post
You should set your receiver height so that the ball is at the same height as the trailer coupler when the trailer is level. The more the ball sags from that height when hitched, the more force the WDH bars/chains apply to return the ball to that height.

Fred W
I get it as close as possible but with the choice of two holes on the shank, I go the one that makes it higher. My truck already has a rake with the rear higher so it flattens it out.


The instructions for the hitches typically say to do the same.
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Old 05-28-2019, 07:23 AM   #58
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I questioned the need of a WDH on another post and got a bunch of different replies. My truck has 18k towing, the hitch that I purchased is rated for 18k, and it tows great without a WDH, so for now, I feel safe and comfortable not having one. Ford says this for my truck:

"Also, there are new 2.5-inch and 3-inch hitch receivers that increases weight-carrying hitch capacity. There is extensive use of high-strength steel in the hitch designs and surrounding structure. The platform extends under the truck frame to create a strong and secure foundation. This eliminates the need for a weight-distributing hitch when towing up to the maximum conventional trailer rating of the truck."
That trailer has a 950lb hitch weight dry. I think the F250 has an official load hitch rating of about 900lb without a WDH. I think you are over the specs put out by Ford. Your hitch can take the weight but can your rear axle? How much cargo do you have? If you max your cargo to the rating you are probably around or possibly over your rear axle weight rating.
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Old 05-28-2019, 07:49 AM   #59
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That trailer has a 950lb hitch weight dry. I think the F250 has an official load hitch rating of about 900lb without a WDH. I think you are over the specs put out by Ford. Your hitch can take the weight but can your rear axle? How much cargo do you have? If you max your cargo to the rating you are probably around or possibly over your rear axle weight rating.
According to the paperwork/spec sheet of my truck, it says that it is capable of conventional trailer towing of 18k lbs as is, and 10% of that can be on the hitch. Also, I looked on Fords website, and it says that the truck is not required to use a WDH up to the max conventional tow rating of the truck. Here's another excerpt from ford.

"Maximum conventional towing with F-250 and F-350 single-rear wheel models with the OEM's new trailer tow package boosted to 18,000 lbs.; A maximum gooseneck tow rating of 32,500 lbs. for the Ford F-450 Super Duty SuperCrew 4x4, with maximum fifth-wheel towing increased to 27,500 lbs."
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Old 05-28-2019, 08:55 AM   #60
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According to the paperwork/spec sheet of my truck, it says that it is capable of conventional trailer towing of 18k lbs as is, and 10% of that can be on the hitch. Also, I looked on Fords website, and it says that the truck is not required to use a WDH up to the max conventional tow rating of the truck. Here's another excerpt from ford.

"Maximum conventional towing with F-250 and F-350 single-rear wheel models with the OEM's new trailer tow package boosted to 18,000 lbs.; A maximum gooseneck tow rating of 32,500 lbs. for the Ford F-450 Super Duty SuperCrew 4x4, with maximum fifth-wheel towing increased to 27,500 lbs."
You are right. I had been looking at the 2106 towing guide since that was my vehicle year and the F250 is listed at 850lb, but for 2017 F250 diesel it lists 1800lb. Wow, they really upped the numbers in one year. And it's still 1500lb for the gaser.
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