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Old 07-12-2017, 08:21 AM   #21
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If you have the 3.73 gears, (this is just my opinion, and may not be true) that should be the "max tow" package. As absurd as it may be, the tow mirrors are not part of the package, they are an additional cost. I have never seen a 3.73 that wasn't max tow. Could be wrong, but that is the assumption I would make.


As to the "cutting the tongue weight in half" statement. I think it is playing semantics. Technically the dealer is right. Because you are distributing the weight. The amount of weight on the entire vehicle is the same. So if it was 500 lbs of tongue weight with no weight distribution (100% of 500 lbs is on the hitch), put the weight distribution on there and now its only 250lbs on the hitch, the other 250 lbs is distributed to the front axle of your truck. As far as payload is concerned, its still 500 pounds regardless of the distribution of the weight. Think of it like holding a bar for bench pressing. If you put 50lbs on one side of the bar, and nothing on the other side, its 50 lbs (this would be on the hitch not using weight distribution). If you take 25 lbs off of that one side, and move it to the other side, its still 50 lbs (that is using the weight distribution hitch). I think its a pretty shady way to sell a trailer to a customer, but he's sort of scientifically right, it does lower the amount of weight "on the hitch", but he is selling it as if the weight magically disappears. Reality is it just moves to somewhere else on the tow vehicle, and thus the payload is still affected the same way. That's the long of way of saying a weight distributing hitch doesn't make the trailer lighter, where the dealers statement implies that it does... That is just the simplest way to describe it, there is certainly more to it than that.
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Old 07-12-2017, 08:37 AM   #22
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True... except a WDH distributes some weight to the trailer too.
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Old 07-12-2017, 08:44 AM   #23
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You are doing the right thing by researching all the information you can.
I would not trust what the salesman is telling you, they are interested in selling, not what works best for you.

I had a 2010 GMC Sierra 1500 extended cab short box towing a 2011 Flagstaff 27BHSS and CAT scaled it. The WDH w/bars connected added 700 lbs to my truck, w/bars disconnected the trailer added 780 lbs so the difference was about 10%. Certainly not half!
All my weights were within limits, truck payload was nearly maxed, trailer weight was 1000 lbs below max and CVW was also under the limit albeit not by much.
That truck was working hard! I towed that way for several summers on flat MN roads and one trip around Lake Superior that wasn't flat but not mountainous by any means. I traded the truck in for a 2016 Silverado 2500HD CC and what a difference. Much better combination.
I think you are going to have problems keeping all your weight within limits on your setup but even if you do, towing at max capacity is hardly what I would call a vacation.
Good luck finding the right trailer for you.
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Old 07-12-2017, 09:12 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by clr View Post
The 10% to 15% is the range that the TT mfrs use to arrive at acceptable towing performance on the road and such. So what I am saying is that the exact number is sort of built into the TT by the mfr. So you could find out what the TT tong weight is dry that would at least give you the starting point in the range. I think you will have to be very careful to not exceed the CC of your truck.
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ca443, don't apologize! Unlike most salespeople and a lot of the towing public, you're asking the right questions!

Our trucks are just about identical, it seems - you can see my details in the signature line below. My truck DID come with max tow but NOT with tow mirrors... apparently that's a Canadian thing. We had them installed at the time of purchase.

You've hit the nail on the head - payload is the weakest link. Our trailer's GVWR is 6570 lbs and we've weighed it; loaded for camping the GVW is 5874 lbs. The ProPride adds tongue weight and with the people and stuff we put in the truck we're at our limits.

However, WDH does redistribute SOME of the tongue weight to the trailer wheels and the front wheels of the truck and I'm comfortable with the combination.
That's funny, my truck is Canadian as well!
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Old 07-12-2017, 09:21 AM   #25
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A WDH does not magically make the trailer tongue lighter, it simply helps distribute the trailer tongue weight over both TV axles. If anything, they reduce your total payload capacity by virtue of the weight of the hitch itself.
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Old 07-12-2017, 09:44 AM   #26
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That's funny, my truck is Canadian as well!
Makes sense for me... I'm in Canada and so is the truck dealer!

As close as we are to our payload limit, our next truck will be a 3/4 or 1 ton. I just wish they put this awesome EcoBoost 3.5L in an F-250!
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Old 07-12-2017, 09:57 AM   #27
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I was in the same boat, same truck (almost) and same internal conflict over weights.
My f-150 eco boost pulled my trailer well in terms of power, but I would seem to more sway than I wanted.. so I COULD have upgraded tires, etc, put a few grand into the best hitch on the market to help reduce sway, but after all of that I was still at and often over my limits.. Got 2 little girls that ride with me and my wife and I just couldnt deal with the thought that I wasn't being absolutely as safe as possible. For me, I upgraded to a 3/4 ton truck..
For you, if you haven't bought it yet, I suggest a lighter camper. I also had a dealer telling me my 1/2 ton eco boost will pull it like its not even there.. He was wrong. Hate to be Harsh, but a lighter camper is 1000 Bucks? Take a look at your family.. Priceless..
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Old 07-12-2017, 10:39 AM   #28
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Nope, curb weight (or payload capacity if you prefer) doesn't NOT include a driver. It does include a full tank of fuel though.

For example, see page 29 of the 2015 ford towing guide :

http://www.fleet.ford.ca/resources/f...Tgde_Sep30.pdf

The sae j2807 tow rating (Ie: how heavy trailer can be) does include the driver though. May include a passenger also, can't remember off the top of my head. Driver for sure though.

Thanking the driver is included in the curb weight is a common mistake.


Well dang, I stand corrected. I made assumptions (yes, I know). I was thinking the driver was not considered a passenger when it's worded in the manner described on page 29.

The 2016 manual is worded much better.
See page 1.

https://www.fleet.ford.com/truckbbas...load_SB_v5.pdf
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Old 07-12-2017, 02:53 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by ronheater70 View Post
I was in the same boat, same truck (almost) and same internal conflict over weights.
My f-150 eco boost pulled my trailer well in terms of power, but I would seem to more sway than I wanted.. so I COULD have upgraded tires, etc, put a few grand into the best hitch on the market to help reduce sway, but after all of that I was still at and often over my limits.. Got 2 little girls that ride with me and my wife and I just couldnt deal with the thought that I wasn't being absolutely as safe as possible. For me, I upgraded to a 3/4 ton truck..
For you, if you haven't bought it yet, I suggest a lighter camper. I also had a dealer telling me my 1/2 ton eco boost will pull it like its not even there.. He was wrong. Hate to be Harsh, but a lighter camper is 1000 Bucks? Take a look at your family.. Priceless..
I agree and I called the dealer about this, the lighter weight was a typo on their end.
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Old 07-12-2017, 03:16 PM   #30
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I can't believe people are still throwing this old myth around.

A WDH does NOT distribute weight back to the trailer. It distributes a portion of the weight on the tow vehicle rear axle to the front. It does this through physics and geometry (it's why the hitch head is tilted down), but the total weight placed on the tow vehicle remains the same.

So if you have 750 lbs tongue weight with the bars off, you still have 750 lbs of tongue weight with the bars on. But with bars on, you may have more like 450 lbs on the rear axle and 300 lbs on the front instead of 750 lbs on the rear axle. It's purpose is to maintain the driving characteristics of the tow vehicle, not to let you carry more cargo/reduce tongue.

Even IF we were to accept the premise that weight is shifted back to the trailer, the bars are hooked up within a few feet of the hitch ball which would put any alleged weight "transferred" to the trailer squarely back into being part of the tongue weight. Any weight added to the trailer in front of the axles increases tongue. It would be the equivalent of adding second battery beside the first and saying it doesn't increase tongue. Sure, chuck a 60 lb battery on the nose of the a frame and some portion of the weight will see the axles, but you're talking ounces at best, the bulk goes where the load is placed: at the tongue. It's the nature of the relationship between fulcrum/lever. It's the same with the weight bars attached to the trailer. The weight is so far forward of the fulcrum (IE: axles), the fulcrum point sees essentially none of the weight. So the weight goes back on the tongue, which is the end of the lever. it's like putting a pivot on one end of a 2x4x8, dropping 60 lbs on the other end and trying to pick it up from the end with the weight on it. You're lifting 60lbs (or within a few ounces of it), the pivot/fulcrum/axles give you no help at all.

It's been discussed ad naseum by both experts and common folk on the net so I'm not going to go any deeper into it here.

Google it if you don't believe it.

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Old 07-12-2017, 03:17 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronheater70 View Post
I was in the same boat, same truck (almost) and same internal conflict over weights.
My f-150 eco boost pulled my trailer well in terms of power, but I would seem to more sway than I wanted.. so I COULD have upgraded tires, etc, put a few grand into the best hitch on the market to help reduce sway, but after all of that I was still at and often over my limits.. Got 2 little girls that ride with me and my wife and I just couldnt deal with the thought that I wasn't being absolutely as safe as possible. For me, I upgraded to a 3/4 ton truck..
For you, if you haven't bought it yet, I suggest a lighter camper. I also had a dealer telling me my 1/2 ton eco boost will pull it like its not even there.. He was wrong. Hate to be Harsh, but a lighter camper is 1000 Bucks? Take a look at your family.. Priceless..

Good advice , not to mention the legal issues if (heaven forbid) he would be involved in an accident, fault or no fault.
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Old 07-12-2017, 04:15 PM   #32
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Well dang, I stand corrected. I made assumptions (yes, I know). I was thinking the driver was not considered a passenger when it's worded in the manner described on page 29.

The 2016 manual is worded much better.
See page 1.

https://www.fleet.ford.com/truckbbas...load_SB_v5.pdf
No worries. I didn't notice it when I posted, but I double "negative-ed" in my post (doesn't not) which actually says the opposite of what I was trying to say.

LOL!

I are good at the ingrish.....
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Old 07-12-2017, 04:29 PM   #33
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I can't believe people are still throwing this old myth around.

A WDH does NOT distribute weight back to the trailer. It distributes a portion of the weight on the tow vehicle rear axle to the front. It does this through physics and geometry (it's why the hitch head is tilted down), but the total weight placed on the tow vehicle remains the same.

So if you have 750 lbs tongue weight with the bars off, you still have 750 lbs of tongue weight with the bars on. But with bars on, you may have more like 450 lbs on the rear axle and 300 lbs on the front instead of 750 lbs on the rear axle. It's purpose is to maintain the driving characteristics of the tow vehicle, not to let you carry more cargo/reduce tongue.

Even IF we were to accept the premise that weight is shifted back to the trailer, the bars are hooked up within a few feet of the hitch ball which would put any alleged weight "transferred" to the trailer squarely back into being part of the tongue weight. Any weight added to the trailer in front of the axles increases tongue. It would be the equivalent of adding second battery beside the first and saying it doesn't increase tongue. Sure, chuck a 60 lb battery on the nose of the a frame and some portion of the weight will see the axles, but you're talking ounces at best, the bulk goes where the load is placed: at the tongue. It's the nature of the relationship between fulcrum/lever. It's the same with the weight bars attached to the trailer. The weight is so far forward of the fulcrum (IE: axles), the fulcrum point sees essentially none of the weight. So the weight goes back on the tongue, which is the end of the lever. it's like putting a pivot on one end of a 2x4x8, dropping 60 lbs on the other end and trying to pick it up from the end with the weight on it. You're lifting 60lbs (or within a few ounces of it), the pivot/fulcrum/axles give you no help at all.

It's been discussed ad naseum by both experts and common folk on the net so I'm not going to go any deeper into it here.

Google it if you don't believe it.



You are incorrect. Although the weight transferred to the trailer is a lot less, there is is fact some transferred to the trailer's axles. The long end of the bars do that. Again, it is a smaller percentage.

The scales don't lie. Your trailer's axles will weigh more with your bars hooked up than when the bars are not hooked up.

Those bars are pulling down on the tongue of the trailer.

Think of it this way:

Unhook your trailer, but leave your WDH bars on the TV hitch. Move the trailer out of the way. Now grab the bars (one in each hand) and lift up on them. Do you think your feet are not pushing down harder on the ground? The axles/tires are the trailer's feet. Now, the tires are back a lot farther, which is why the weight is much less... but there is weight there.

Not sure where you are getting your information, but it is false.
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Old 07-12-2017, 05:11 PM   #34
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You are incorrect. Although the weight transferred to the trailer is a lot less, there is is fact some transferred to the trailer's axles. The long end of the bars do that. Again, it is a smaller percentage.

The scales don't lie. Your trailer's axles will weigh more with your bars hooked up than when the bars are not hooked up.

Those bars are pulling down on the tongue of the trailer.

Think of it this way:

Unhook your trailer, but leave your WDH bars on the TV hitch. Move the trailer out of the way. Now grab the bars (one in each hand) and lift up on them. Do you think your feet are not pushing down harder on the ground? The axles/tires are the trailer's feet. Now, the tires are back a lot farther, which is why the weight is much less... but there is weight there.

Not sure where you are getting your information, but it is false.


So, I will give you the assumption that is is a 3rd class lever. It's not perfect math, but it will do for this example since that is as close as it's going to get without getting needlessly complex:



Effort would be your weight bars attachment point, fulcrum is your first axle, load is your tongue.

Lets take my trailer as an example. roughly 23 feet from tongue to first axle. 700-ish tongue. Roughly 18 inches to the weight bar attachment point.

That works out to 655 lbs of force at the weight bar attachment point to balance out a 700 lb tongue. A grand total of 45 lbs difference seen at the rear fulcrum (axles).

So, by numbers and accepting the premise it is a 3rd class lever, yes: you can argue that you are correct. But real world that (in my example) 45 lbs is essentially inconsequential. I can give the same effect by moving a chair behind my axles int the trailer or something as simple as putting my cooler behind the axle instead of in front of them. It's so small it's just not worth mentioning.

You can manipulate the numbers around, but you're still going to end up in around the 50lbs range at best.

The thing that makes it so low is the effort (Fe) is so close to load (Fl) and the rest of the lever is so long. In the formula for a 3rd class lever, it would be that dl (distance of the lever to the fulcrum) and de (distance to the effort from the fulcrum) are so close to the same length that makes the difference so small: Fe = Fl dl / de

A WHD distributes weight forward on the tow vehicle to maintain handling and braking characteristics and it does it through geometry That's it's real purpose. Arguing that it transfers weight rearward off the tongue to the trailer is where people who run overloaded go to make themselves feel better about running overloaded. It's just not enough of an effect to affect anything of any consequence.

As mentioned by the salesman in a previous post, 50% is ludicrous and nothing but a slimy sales tactic or someone who shouldn't be giving advice on what you can (and can't) tow. On a good day, you're looking at maybe a 5-10% tongue difference.

Not trying to be nasty, it's the numbers.

And now, I'm off to do something that doesn't involve numbers and calculations as I've lost interest in the discussion. I do too much number work in the run of a day already. Don't need to be doing it in my off time.



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Old 07-12-2017, 05:37 PM   #35
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You are incorrect. Although the weight transferred to the trailer is a lot less, there is is fact some transferred to the trailer's axles. The long end of the bars do that. Again, it is a smaller percentage.

The scales don't lie. Your trailer's axles will weigh more with your bars hooked up than when the bars are not hooked up.

Those bars are pulling down on the tongue of the trailer.

Think of it this way:

Unhook your trailer, but leave your WDH bars on the TV hitch. Move the trailer out of the way. Now grab the bars (one in each hand) and lift up on them. Do you think your feet are not pushing down harder on the ground? The axles/tires are the trailer's feet. Now, the tires are back a lot farther, which is why the weight is much less... but there is weight there.

Not sure where you are getting your information, but it is false.
X2

Scale your rig with wdh hitched and again with it unhitched. If the trailer axle weights don't change you don't have any tension on your wdh bars when hitched.
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Old 07-12-2017, 05:37 PM   #36
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So, I will give you the assumption that is is a 3rd class lever, since that is as close as it's going to get:



Effort would be your weight bars attachment point, fulcrum is your first axle, load is your tongue.

Lets take my trailer as an example. roughly 23 feet from tongue to first axle. 700-ish tongue. Roughly 18 inches to the weight bar attachment point.

That works out to 655 lbs of force at the weight bar attachment point to balance out a 700 lb tongue. A grand total of 45 lbs difference seen at the rear fulcrum (axles).

So, by numbers and accepting the premise it is a 3rd class lever, yes: you can argue that you are correct. But real world that (in my example) 45 lbs is essentially inconsequential. I can give the same effect by moving a chair behind my axles int the trailer or something as simple as putting my cooler behind the axle instead of in front of them. It's so small it's just not worth mentioning.

You can manipulate the numbers around, but you're still going to end up in around the 50lbs range at best.

The thing that makes it so low is the effort (Fe) is so close to load (Fl) and the rest of the lever is so long. In the formula for a 3rd class lever, it would be that dl (distance of the lever to the fulcrum) and de (distance to the effort from the fulcrum) are so close to the same length that makes the difference so small: Fe = Fl dl / de

A WHD distributes weight forward on the tow vehicle to maintain handling and braking characteristics. That's it's real purpose. Arguing that it transfers weight rearward is where people who run overloaded go to make themselves feel better about running overloaded.

Not trying to be nasty, it's the numbers.





Dude, no offense, but this is not something people are trying to figure out. The bars exert downward force on the trailer, therefore weight is being transferred. Don't know if this is an engineering problem you are trying to figure out for class or not... but weight is transferred. I already said it is a lot less, but anything greater than zero proves your blanket statement false (your statement saying no weight is transferred).

It can be proved through physics/engineering and it can be proved at the scales.

Sounds like you need more homework. I assume you aren't a degree'd engineer or you would admit I am correct.

The short stubby ends of the bars are exerting force on the TV and the long ends of the bars are exerting force on the trailer. The ball is the fulcrum.

Since you didn't follow my advice about lifting up on the bars with your hand and noting your weight before and after, think about pushing yourself up between two chairs or tables, each arm exerts force (weight) down on each. The levers are different lengths and the forces are different, however the concept is the same.

Just to be clear, are you still claiming no weight is transferred to the trailer by a WDH? That is what you said before.
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Old 07-12-2017, 05:42 PM   #37
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Dude, no offense, but this is not something people are trying to figure out. The bars exert downward force on the trailer, therefore weight is being transferred. Don't know if this is an engineering problem you are trying to figure out for class or not... but weight is transferred. I already said it is a lot less, but anything greater than zero proves your blanket statement false (your statement saying no weight is transferred).

It can be proved through physics/engineering and it can be proved at the scales.

Sounds like you need more homework. I assume you aren't a degree'd engineer or you would admit I am correct.

The short stubby ends of the bars are exerting force on the TV and the long ends of the bars are exerting force on the trailer. The ball is the fulcrum.

Since you didn't follow my advice about lifting up on the bars with your hand and noting your weight before and after, think about pushing yourself up between two chairs or tables, each arm exerts force (weight) down on each. The levers are different lengths and the forces are different, however the concept is the same.

Just to be clear, are you still claiming no weight is transferred to the trailer by a WDH? That is what you said before.
Meh, whatever you say friend. I'm done.

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Old 07-12-2017, 05:59 PM   #38
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Dude, no offense, but this is not something people are trying to figure out. The bars exert downward force on the trailer, therefore weight is being transferred. Don't know if this is an engineering problem you are trying to figure out for class or not... but weight is transferred. I already said it is a lot less, but anything greater than zero proves your blanket statement false (your statement saying no weight is transferred).

It can be proved through physics/engineering and it can be proved at the scales.

Sounds like you need more homework. I assume you aren't a degree'd engineer or you would admit I am correct.

The short stubby ends of the bars are exerting force on the TV and the long ends of the bars are exerting force on the trailer. The ball is the fulcrum.

Since you didn't follow my advice about lifting up on the bars with your hand and noting your weight before and after, think about pushing yourself up between two chairs or tables, each arm exerts force (weight) down on each. The levers are different lengths and the forces are different, however the concept is the same.

Just to be clear, are you still claiming no weight is transferred to the trailer by a WDH? That is what you said before.
Where his explanation left the rails was the assumption this was simply a third class lever.

The load is actually a hinge point at the ball with a second lever between the front axle and ball using the rear suspension as it's fulcrum complicated by the fulcrum being suspended by springs. The geometry and math is far more complex then suggested.

In my case while on the scale with my loaded rig each link of adjustment roughly splits the change in rear axle weight between the TV front and TT axles. Coincidently the TT front and TV axles are roughly equidistant from the WDH bars.
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Old 07-12-2017, 10:30 PM   #39
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It's a MYTHtery!

Figuring it out on paper is not the same as going to the scale and seeing what the actual weights are.

In my case the CAT scales showed 80 more [edit: I meant to say less] lbs on the trailer axles w/bars removed and placed in the bed of the pickup truck than when the bars were installed and under tension.

[Further edit: when the truck was weighed alone w/bars in bed, it was 700 lbs lighter than w/trailer and bars connected, and 780 lbs lighter than w/trailer and bars disconnected and in the bed.]
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Old 07-12-2017, 10:36 PM   #40
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It's a MYTHtery!

Figuring it out on paper is not the same as going to the scale and seeing what the actual weights are.

In my case the CAT scales showed 80 more lbs on the trailer axles w/bars removed and placed in the bed of the pickup truck than when the bars were installed and under tension.


Something was changed then. What you are saying is impossible. The WDH distributes weight on both the TV and TT. What you are saying is effectively: "I put 100 lbs on the scale and the reading went down."

Where the bars connect to the trailer tongue, by bracket, chain, etc.,... they are pulling down on the trailer. It is the same thing as putting 500 or 1000 lbs on the tongue at that location. That puts more weight on the trailer tires.
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