What weight (TT) can an F150 3.5 Ecoboost w/Hensley hitch safely tow?

[SailorSam20500]

Originally Posted by Dustyhd

That’s what some may claim but it’s technically impossible. TW of the trailer is completely unaffected and completely independent of the P3 or Hensley. These hitches act as hitch extension, increasing the weight removed from the front axle compared to the conventional WDH and take another 100lbs from the TV payload.

I disagree. Following your argument, moving stuff around in a trailer should not affect TW.

A trailer is effectively a type 2 lever. According to the physics laws, increasing the distance between the fulcrum (trailer axles) and the point of effort (ball on conventional hitch or inside the receiver on a Hensley design) reduces the weight to be lifted. I grant the they do increase the total trailer weight. However, the added length MAY reduce TW. Same reason a longer breaker bar makes it easier to loosen a nut.

[Dustyhd]

Originally Posted by SailorSam20500

I disagree. Following your argument, moving stuff around in a trailer should not affect TW.

A trailer is effectively a type 2 lever. According to the physics laws, increasing the distance between the fulcrum (trailer axles) and the point of effort (ball on conventional hitch or inside the receiver on a Hensley design) reduces the weight to be lifted. I grant the they do increase the total trailer weight. However, the added length MAY reduce TW. Same reason a longer breaker bar makes it easier to loosen a nut.

You’re making the assumption that the hitch acts like a trailer tongue extension and it doesn’t. The tongue weight of the trailer stays constant whether it’s a P3 or conventional design WDH end of story. The scale weigh ticket will show that it acts as hitch extension and not a trailer tongue extension by removing more weight from the TV front axle then a standard type WDH.

[chriscowles]

I haven't weighed it with the 3P yet, but the difference I expect in the tongue weight is that of the hitch, itself. I also have more in the trailer than I did when I got the results above.

[chriscowles]

Originally Posted by Dustyhd

... The scale weigh ticket will show that it acts as hitch extension and not a trailer tongue extension by removing more weight from the TV front axle then a standard type WDH.

The stinger being rigid, the description of the 3P being an extension makes sense. I really don't care as long as I'm within specs and the load is distributed appropriately.

Edit: As loaded and tensioned now, it tows very well with no pitching. I need to lower the stinger one hole because the front of the trailer is slightly higher than the back. I also want to add a washer to the angle of the stinger while I have it apart.

While most sway is gone, the effect of large trucks passing is not entirely gone. Most have no effect but I do feel some more than others. Maybe more adjustments are in order. I'll consult with Sean before I drive back.

[Dustyhd]

Originally Posted by chriscowles

The stinger being rigid, the description of the 3P being an extension makes sense. I really don't care as long as I'm within specs and the load is distributed appropriately.

Edit: As loaded and tensioned now, it tows very well with no pitching. I need to lower the stinger one home because the front of the trailer is slightly higher than the back. I also want to add a washer to the angle of the stinger while I have it apart.

While most sway is gone, the effect of large trucks passing is not entirely gone. Most have no effect but I do feel some more than others. Maybe more adjustments are in order. I'll consult with Sean before I drive back.

When it comes to sway damping the Hensley design is unmatched but that alone isn’t the whole story. The static component of instability remains a potential problem even with this hitch. Adding the tongue weight further away from the rear axle and that extra mass makes the static component worse then when the conventional style WDH is used. The vehicle manufacturers know this and don’t really give it much consideration for this reason.

[chriscowles]

Originally Posted by Dustyhd

When it comes to sway damping the Hensley design is unmatched but that alone isn’t the whole story. The static component of instability remains a potential problem even with this hitch. Adding the tongue weight further away from the rear axle and that extra mass makes the static component worse then when the conventional style WDH is used. The vehicle manufacturers know this and don’t really give it much consideration for this reason.

Translation?

[dbledan]

I have a blueox swaypro and a P3 that I used on the same trailer. While the P3 is heavier I found that it was able to offset more weight than the Blueox making the additional weight pretty much a wash for me.

If you are talking about static tongue weight rather than WD tongue weight, yes the P3 results in a higher tongue weight.

[Dustyhd]

Originally Posted by chriscowles

Translation?

The Hensley design is not perfect, good yes but not perfect. If it was the end all on towing stability one of the big three would have purchased it long ago and claimed towing supremacy.

[SailorSam20500]

Originally Posted by Dustyhd

Adding the tongue weight further away from the rear axle and that extra mass makes the static component worse then when the conventional style WDH is used.

TW is measured where the effort is placed on the carrier. On conventional hitches, this at the ball. Hensley design hitches transfer the effort inside the TV receiver. So in actuality, the TW of a Hensley designed hitch is CLOSER to the TV rear axle, not farther away.

[Tundra 2014]

If you have any thought about upgrading and are towing more than a couple times a year-go with a gas 250. Better brakes, more relaxed towing at lower gas milage and slightly rougher ride. Your brother had too long a trailer and no WDH- not fun and not safe IMO. Each individual truck will have a sticker w/ Payload Capacity on the driver's door jam. "More goodies"-less payload. Payload is what I am concerned about when I look at a TV. The max tow numbers are for a flatbed, not a 13' tall sail.

[chriscowles]

Originally Posted by Tundra 2014

... The max tow numbers are for a flatbed, not a 13' tall sail.

That would be a 4 wheel flatbed farm trailer with very little tongue weight. :-)

[Dustyhd]

Originally Posted by SailorSam20500

TW is measured where the effort is placed on the carrier. On conventional hitches, this at the ball. Hensley design hitches transfer the effort inside the TV receiver. So in actuality, the TW of a Hensley designed hitch is CLOSER to the TV rear axle, not farther away.

First off let’s get one straight. The weight of the tongue created by its mass will never change based on the type of hitch you use. Gravity is acting on the mass of the tongue regardless of where it connects to the TV.

That’s the way it would certainly seem like it would work. I admit that I had the same assumption until I saw actual scale weights. On the P3 the tongue weight is pushing down a the point where it attaches to hitch which some 8-12 inches further back then a traditional style hitch. This is why the weigh tickets show the P3 removing more weight from the front axle. The weight removed from the front axle is close to the same as using a standard ball mount and a 12 inch hitch extension. The tongue connection point of the P3 is further back even though it creates a virtual pivot point forward. Having that connection point further back puts the mass of the tongue further back, allowing it to have more leverage in both the vertical and horizontal planes.

[SailorSam20500]

Originally Posted by Dustyhd

First off let’s get one straight. The weight of the tongue created by its mass will never change based on the type of hitch you use. Gravity is acting on the mass of the tongue regardless of where it connects to the TV.

That’s the way it would certainly seem like it would work. I admit that I had the same assumption until I saw actual scale weights. On the P3 the tongue weight is pushing down a the point where it attaches to hitch which some 8-12 inches further back then a traditional style hitch. This is why the weigh tickets show the P3 removing more weight from the front axle. The weight removed from the front axle is close to the same as using a standard ball mount and a 12 inch hitch extension. The tongue connection point of the P3 is further back even though it creates a virtual pivot point forward. Having that connection point further back puts the mass of the tongue further back, allowing it to have more leverage in both the vertical and horizontal planes.

Believe what you wish. I will believe the people who weighed their rig, changed from a conventional hitch to a Hensley design, reweighed their rig...

[Dustyhd]

Originally Posted by SailorSam20500

Believe what you wish. I will believe the people who weighed their rig, changed from a conventional hitch to a Hensley design, reweighed their rig...

Yes you should believe the scaled weight as it proves my point.

[chriscowles]

Originally Posted by Dustyhd

Yes you should believe the scaled weight as it proves my point.

I will weigh mine tomorrow, but isn't the front axle weight distribution dependent on the degree of spring tension?

Stay tuned.

[Dustyhd]

Originally Posted by chriscowles

I will weigh mine tomorrow, but isn't the front axle weight distribution dependent on the degree of spring tension?

Stay tuned.

Of course it does. We were discussing the differences in weight removed from the TV front axle based on the trailer tongue connection point and the static stability issue it creates.

[SailorSam20500]

Originally Posted by Dustyhd

Yes you should believe the scaled weight as it proves my point.

Originally Posted by Dustyhd

Of course it does. We were discussing the differences in weight removed from the TV front axle based on the trailer tongue connection point and the static stability issue it creates.

I have no idea when the discussion started talking about weight removed from the front axle. My comments have been entirely directed to net TW. As I've noted, folks who have converted from conventional hitches to a "heavy" Hensley designed hitch report, based on actual scale results, the TW delta is negligible, often in the range of +/- 25 lbs.
The purpose of WD on hitches is to restore front axle weight. My hitch is capable of a net increase to the weight carried by my front axle, doing so is a bad idea.

[Dustyhd]

Originally Posted by SailorSam20500

I have no idea when the discussion started talking about weight removed from the front axle. My comments have been entirely directed to net TW. As I've noted, folks who have converted from conventional hitches to a "heavy" Hensley designed hitch report, based on actual scale results, the TW delta is negligible, often in the range of +/- 25 lbs.
The purpose of WD on hitches is to restore front axle weight. My hitch is capable of a net increase to the weight carried by my front axle, doing so is a bad idea.

Weight removed from the front axle is directly proportional to the trailer connection point location which we were discussing. Scale weights will show how the P3 connection point is further rearward by removing more weight off the front.

[Dustyhd]

Originally Posted by SailorSam20500

I have no idea when the discussion started talking about weight removed from the front axle. My comments have been entirely directed to net TW. As I've noted, folks who have converted from conventional hitches to a "heavy" Hensley designed hitch report, based on actual scale results, the TW delta is negligible, often in the range of +/- 25 lbs.
The purpose of WD on hitches is to restore front axle weight. My hitch is capable of a net increase to the weight carried by my front axle, doing so is a bad idea.

Please don’t take this the wrong way but I did assume you did have some technical understanding of towing dynamics which involves understanding the how the WDH impacts the TV. Since you don’t seem to understand the underlying physics I won’t continue to try and explain it. As with most things in this world the P3/Hensley design has its positive and negative attributes. My intention was to explain the negatives which can have implications for some users. As I said before it is a good design but certainly is not perfect.

[chriscowles]

The truck (2016 F150 SuperCrew 145" WB MaxTow) and trailer (2020 Mini-Lite 2507S) are loaded for travel. The 36 gal gas tank was full. ~400# of passengers in front seat and minimal personal stuff in rear seat. The bed of the truck had a little bit of junk at the front of the bed, a Honda EU2000i generator plus 2.5 gal gas in front of the rear axle, and two folding bikes behind the axle.

I added a Roadmaster Active Suspension kit to the truck. (That was on the truck for the previous scale weight.) It's set at little tighter than the lowest (1 mm gap?) tension. I do not expect it to increase the payload capacity. It does make it handle better, particularly when empty.

Fresh, black and gray water tanks were empty on the trailer. 2 6V GC2 FLA batteries on the tongue, plus about a tank and a half (30# tanks) of propane. I have a 28 gallon Rhino tank hanging on the rear ladder, and the spare is on the bumper. The only thing that will be different on future long trips will be a some more food and clothing.

To reiterate weight ratings, the truck FAWR, RAWR, GVWR and GCVWR are 3225#, 3800#, 6800# and 17000#, respectively. The GVWR of the trailer is 6785#.

Weights:
Configuration, Front, Rear, Trailer
Truck only: 3100, 2900
3P 1000# springs engaged (jacks at about 8"): 3160, 3420, 5820
3P springs off: 2720, 4060, 5620
Combined, 12400

Calculations:
Truck only, 6000
Truck, 3P 1000# springs on, 6580
Truck, 3P springs off, 6780
Trailer total, 6400
Trailer tongue, 780
Tongue % weight, 12.2%

Subscribers to the theory that it's unsafe to be loaded to more than 80% of weight ratings would not be satisfied with these results. As I am within all manufacturer's specifications, I don't feel that it's required to change anything, but I'll probably put the generator inside the trailer, in front of the refrigerator (slightly behind the axles.) I won't carry water anywhere except a short distance within a campground.

At some point in the future I'll swap the GC2s for a LiFePO4 of equivalent usable size. It will be a couple of feet farther back from the current battery location. If I ever have passengers in the rear seat, they would be <= 350#.

The above data provides objective information directly addressing the OP, i.e., what weight can an F150 w/ 3.5 EB and a Hensley hitch safely tow.

As an aside, we encountered gusts of 30-40 MPH (estimated by me) on the way home today. I definitely felt it but didn't feel like the truck was being redirected as I did under similar conditions with the BlueOx SwayPro. I generally drive at 55 - 60 MPH. While it was windy I slowed to 50 MPH when rain permitted. Visibility, not handling, sometimes dictated slower speeds.