2300 Suggestions

[Snowman9000]

Overall we like our 2300 a lot. I did post the defects in the poll thread. Beyond that, I have a some suggestions for improvements.

There are three shallow drawers per side on the wardrobe. They are 3.75" each and the three of them occupy over 20" of vertical space. Switch to two medium depth drawers, or keep the shallow one on top and a 10" one below. Because two of the 3.75" ones use the same space as would a 10" one, and the latter would be much more usable than two shallow ones.

We are not fond of the step-side switches being at floor level. They could be moved up ~18", just below the hanging counter extension, and still be reachable from the ground but also be a lot easier to work from inside. As it stands now, if you are going outside at night and want to turn on the porch light, you have to touch your toes. Probably the cabinet construction dictates the current location. Just a little thing.

WFCO converters are not very good. I wonder how much more an IOTA or Progressive Dynamics would cost FR. We are dry camping this week, and it's absolutely prohibitive to try to charge with the genset and WFCO converter charger. It just doesn't put out enough volts and amps when it counts. Although it claims to have a 14.4 volt bulk mode, you basically can't make it happen. So instead you get a 13.6 volt charge, which takes forever. These WFCO's are only good for RVs that are plugged in. And they could be a lot better at that too. They are poor for dry camping. An IOTA or PD is better at all of it.

I can't see the logic in having the converter so far from the batteries. Chargers work much better with short cables. When I replace the WFCO with a PD, it will go behind the undersink drawer, right next to the batteries. Yes, there are two heat ducts in there, which warm up the cabinet space. But I had a thermometer in there during furnace operation, and the heat is not all that much. It'd be worth checking into, and it would save some wiring.

[bgilly]

Originally Posted by Snowman9000

I can't see the logic in having the converter so far from the batteries. Chargers work much better with short cables. When I replace the WFCO with a PD, it will go behind the undersink drawer, right next to the batteries. Yes, there are two heat ducts in there, which warm up the cabinet space. But I had a thermometer in there during furnace operation, and the heat is not all that much. It'd be worth checking into, and it would save some wiring.

But you would have to run longer wire for the converter to get the supply 120 volt.
As I recall, the converter wire is #8 or better, more than sufficient for the run and to carry the max amp charge.
Another reason for the placement of the converter is to get the noise and heat out of the occupied side of the coach (though the heat would be a good thing right now).
I have already purchased a Progressive Dynamics converter/charger but yet to install it. WFCO does have programmed charge rate that is a bit finicky. I've watched my 12 volt LED flicker and here the converter on the other side cycling at the same time. Weird on such a low current draw of an LED to trigger the charge point.

[Snowman9000]

The 120v run can be very long with no effect. The converter wiring is #6 and probably 18-20 feet, best as I can tell. If the converter actually delivered 40 amps, with that wire the voltage drop would be 4.2%, or from 14.4 to 13.8. That's really bad.

To get the WFCO to jump to boost, you have to have enough load on the system to drag its 13.6v down to 13.2 at the charger itself. Then it will kick into 14.4 boost. To make that happen you have to create a huge load, like running a microwave on a big inverter. Not something that can be done on a stock RV. Even if you stick that PD directly in place of the WFCO, you'll be a fair bit better off. You'll lose some voltage at high amps but it will at least try. And it will finish better and maintain the batteries better.

[bgilly]

4% is an aggressive figure and you won't be drawing load amps at 100% of the time. I doubt it will be much more than 10 amps. 120 volt suffers similar line losses however, you did your homework and you want to modify. I was just adding in my opinion.

Bobby

[KQ2N]

Most of my camping is dry camping. I totally agree, the WFCO does a poor job regarding recharging the house batteries. I have lately been using the generator from the engine to charge the house batteries, I forgot the voltage it charges at, but it is faster. I'd like to know which PD or IOTA or scheme would be best suited for best recharging. I've read the info, but not sure which converter would deliver a 14.4 volt output that's desired for charging.

[bgilly]

Originally Posted by KQ2N

I'd like to know which PD or IOTA or scheme would be best suited for best recharging. I've read the info, but not sure which converter would deliver a 14.4 volt output that's desired for charging.

I went with the Progressive Dynamics PD9260 and the smart wizard pendant. Which is a little more than my WFCO capacity.

[bclemens]

Noted. As a side note, we hate putting electronics under the sink if we can avoid it.

Sometimes floor plan and layout dictate convertor location...but from experience we like to keep it outside where it can dissipate heat and you don;t hear the fan.

[Snowman9000]

Bobby, I'm talking about charging amps, not the draw from using 12v in the coach. Charging is when you need the 14.4v at 40a being able to pass through the wires without much loss.

[Snowman9000]

bclemens, thanks, that is what I figured. Well, it would cost more money but if they went with #2 cable instead of #6, the losses would be under 2% when bulk charging. And the converter suggestion still applies, although the customer could change that on his own and if the wiring was #2, things would be pretty good.

I like dry camping. We go to some good places, and some are shady so solar is sometimes not effective.

Again, thanks for considering suggestions.

[bgilly]

Originally Posted by Snowman9000

Bobby, I'm talking about charging amps, not the draw from using 12v in the coach. Charging is when you need the 14.4v at 40a being able to pass through the wires without much loss.

I understood what you meant. You are not recharging dead batteries. Even boondocking you will not bring the batteries below 11 volts. I understand your need to move it regardless.
Bobby

[Snowman9000]

Originally Posted by KQ2N

Most of my camping is dry camping. I totally agree, the WFCO does a poor job regarding recharging the house batteries. I have lately been using the generator from the engine to charge the house batteries, I forgot the voltage it charges at, but it is faster. I'd like to know which PD or IOTA or scheme would be best suited for best recharging. I've read the info, but not sure which converter would deliver a 14.4 volt output that's desired for charging.

Yeah, I didn't try using the engine but it should be better than the genset and WFCO. I bet you get at least 20a at 14.x volts using the engine.

From what I know, if you are putting a converter into the stock location, with the stock wires, don't bother with an IOTA. They do better than the PD only if they have short fat wires to the battery. Supposedly the PD can do reasonably well with longer wires. I've owned two PDs and they worked well with longer wires, for what that is worth. I think I'd buy another one. With the charge pendant or built in charge wizard, you can force it into boost mode if it doesn't go on its own and you are sure you want it.

[bclemens]

I'm going to have our electrical engineer take a look at this. I think the complaint earlier was that the WFCO would boil the batteries..(is that too high a charge or too long or both?).

We have a large rental account and they have an opinion on everything. I mentioned using them as a possible test subject (installing the PD converters) and they said not to bother. The WFCO ones were working just fine.

Not disagreeing, but we rarely have issues. Now, they also don't use the Gen's a lot either since they charge extra for gen use. This year we were testing out Solar...so again I'm not sure we see a ton of charging off of the generator. Why would it charge better plugged in than it would off of Gen power?

We'll get to the bottom of all this mess.

[bgilly]

Brian, boil happens from too high a voltage. No matter the unit make we've had some issues with WFCO battery charging side (we would see battery boil on both our TT and they were Different Size WFCO units). WFCO has great customer support I just think their technology is not as sophisticated as others and causes the charger to stay in high/bulk.

On the rental comparison - I don't think rental units is a good bar to compare owned units. For some stuff - yea, but on the overall performance of things that take regular use and ownership to understand the inner quirks (for the lack of a better expansion). Like a rental car to one that is owned - the owned one is more directly used and maintained as compared to the rental which is seen by 6 our do shop guys for maintenance. The renter is not always likely to complain about everything since some of the problem might be the lack of familiarity.

[bclemens]

For the most part the rental unit is a great comparison. We see 6 years of use in one season. We really figured out what was getting broken and we have been able to reinforce, redesign or replace. However, I agree this may be one area where we could be chasing the wrong "root cause". One of these reasons we tested solar is to prevent short battery life. Renters are more likely to let them discharge completely thus shortening their life span (the batteries, not the renters of course). We thought the solar would be a preventative measure and pay for itself by getting full life out of a battery.

So, we'll take a closer look at this and see if it is charging properly. I also have a call into Progressive Dynamics. I noticed over the weekend that the FR3 is using them.

[bgilly]

For durability - yea rental is a great tool of measure. Also for neglect or abuse. Owners are typically more critical.
We got the idea

[Snowman9000]

Working just fine is relative.
WFCO = Heng vent fan
PD = Fantastic fan
Both work fine, but one is a lot better at it.

WFCO's also have a reputation for not going into float mode (13.2v). If they stay in the middle mode (absortion, 13.6v), they would eventually boil batteries. I haven't owned it long enough to know first hand.

They do take the same time to charge whether on shore power or genset. The problem is, it's a long time. If not dry camping, it's not an issue. And the typical camper is not dry camping to begin with. With a properly sized and wired PD, if a person runs two batteries down to 50%, the converter can get them back to 90% in 4 hours. With the WFCO, it would take multiples of that. You hear numbers like 24 or 36 hours. It's a glorified trickle charger. It never goes into boost mode, so the charging volts are too low, and the amps are too. Deep cycle batteries are supposed to be charged at 14.4-14.8 volts. Anything less leads to sulfation and loss of capacity over time. Again, if plugged in, it does the job, sorta, although the batteries are dieing faster than if they were being charged properly. So in summary, the WFCO won't go into boost, and a lot people report it won't go into float either. It's the industry standard though, the safe bet, because nobody expects any better. The PD beats it in every way, including an equalization stage that WFCO doesn't even attempt, to keep the batteries healthy longer.

With FR's buying power, I bet you could tell WFCO to fix it. 1) Make it go into boost under normal conditions; 2) Make it go into float; 3) add a periodic equalization mode. They can do it, but the market is not telling them they need to.

Solar helps, assuming it has a truly smart 3 or 4 stage controller.

[Snowman9000]

If you do solar, be sure to have them locate panels as far from every roof object as the object is tall. And, consider that many buyers add covers to the roof vents, making that object even larger.

The other day I went up and mapped out my 2300's roof for possible locations for solar. This drawing is to scale. I did not allow for the bonus space that occurs because the panels are say 3" above the roof surface. I will at some point.

The blue things are the objects. Notice the shadow lines drawn around them. The yellow areas are okay for panels. Look at the huge shadow area from the TV antenna. On the roof it looks like there is a nice area for panels up front, but once you allow for the antenna and all its orientations, the front is wiped out.

Still, there are a lot of good panel locations. Roughly, the mid-left side has 32x84, the dead center has 48x32, and the center-rear edge has 32x36. At least until I think about any vent covers.

Also, panels should be slightly canted so that rain rinses them off, rather than the raised edges collecting water and dirt.

Drawing:

[Snowman9000]

Here is another suggestion. We ordered our 2300 without the shower door. We installed a Stromberg Carlson Extend-A-Shower rod instead. This gives a LOT more room in the small shower. And, a lot more room for the toilet too.

This short youtube video shows it well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSPVaTZEeLY

To do it right, you'd need to have a taller lip on the shower basin, but that's no big deal. I attached a piece of rectangular PVC across the opening with adhesive shower caulk to make enough lip for the shower curtain. If it stays there, it will be just fine. If not, I'll have to invoke plan B, to be determined.

[KQ2N]

Excuse me if my lack of knowledge is slowing this thread down, but the issue seems to be that the WFCO needs to be in "boost" mode when charging the house batteries from the generator when dry camping, correct? I agree, while home, I plug the motorhome into house power and keep the charge on, it seems to charge and hold just fine in float mode once the batteries are charged.

So, I guess the question is; how to force the WFCO into boost mode while dry camping so running the generator for an hour will charge the house batteries fully.

[Snowman9000]

Originally Posted by KQ2N

Excuse me if my lack of knowledge is slowing this thread down, but the issue seems to be that the WFCO needs to be in "boost" mode when charging the house batteries from the generator when dry camping, correct? I agree, while home, I plug the motorhome into house power and keep the charge on, it seems to charge and hold just fine in float mode once the batteries are charged.

So, I guess the question is; how to force the WFCO into boost mode while dry camping so running the generator for an hour will charge the house batteries fully.

This is all from what I've read about getting it into boost. I don't have the equipment to try it. At home I think I could try it, but we are snowbirding right now. Anyway... If while trying to charge the batteries, the voltage at the converter gets dragged down below 13.2, it will kick into boost mode, which is supposed to be 14.4v. To drag the voltage down like that, you have to put a huge load on the 12v system. Like a big inverter connected to a microwave or coffeemaker, and turn on the appliance. Supposedly that will kick it into boost. How long it stays in boost then, I dunno. At home I have a battery tester which is tin box with two short large cables like jumper cables. That tester tests batteries by putting a big load on them and reading their reaction. So maybe I could use that to try the forced boost.

By contrast, a PD converter goes into boost whenever the batteries need it, and the same for float mode.