Lithium Batteries upgrade with Intelli Converter Charger - Page 2

babock · 12-17-2018, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlmay12

The other black cable goes to the negative terminal on the other battery,

Got it.

Sagecoachdriver · 12-18-2018, 12:19 AM

Mimay12, what is the shunt mounted on? That looks like a good spot I may be able to move mine to.

mlmay12 · 12-18-2018, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sagecoachdriver

Mimay12, what is the shunt mounted on? That looks like a good spot I may be able to move mine to.

Actually it's just a piece of hard white foam with a notch cut into the top for the shunt to sit in. It also keeps the batteries from sliding around. I had the small negative cable made at a battery sales shop, the guy did it for free.

Sagecoachdriver · 12-18-2018, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlmay12

Actually it's just a piece of hard white foam with a notch cut into the top for the shunt to sit in. It also keeps the batteries from sliding around. I had the small negative cable made at a battery sales shop, the guy did it for free.

Looks like your shunt is much thinner than mine. I need 2" high and 2" wide for the shunt and cables, so I have it placed above the batteries. I am trying to figure out how I can isolate the Lithium batteries, when I get them, from the converter charger and still have shoreline power to the coach. Doesn't seem possible with all those cables to the batteries and the BIM. Any ideas? I'm going to go out this morning and see where all the cables come from and go to on the batteries. Also, try to isolate the parasitic drain source.

mlmay12 · 12-18-2018, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sagecoachdriver

Looks like your shunt is much thinner than mine. I need 2" high and 2" wide for the shunt and cables, so I have it placed above the batteries. I am trying to figure out how I can isolate the Lithium batteries, when I get them, from the converter charger and still have shoreline power to the coach. Doesn't seem possible with all those cables to the batteries and the BIM. Any ideas? I'm going to go out this morning and see where all the cables come from and go to on the batteries. Also, try to isolate the parasitic drain source.

Good luck, I spent a lot of time crawling around underneath to trace cables. Sure would be nice to get a wiring diagram with MH. I don't see any way to isolate the batteries from the converter and still use shore power. Many of the systems in the coach run on 12V, ie. Water Pump, all lights, possibly TV, Slides, Generator start etc. They would all require the output of the Converter when plugged into shore power if your batteries were disconnected.

Sagecoachdriver · 12-18-2018, 03:24 PM

Looks like I have 3" from batteries to wall. That will give me 1" more for the batteries and 2" for the shunt. Going to be a tight squeeze.
Cables are all now marked. Upper left goes to converter/charger. Middle red goes to BIM and the lower red goes to the BCO or Battery cut off and the Generator. They all work with the negative battery cable off except the converter charger. I have rearranged the red positive cables so that those on the detachable are the Converter charger, BIM and BCO/Generator and the other permanent post has the solar and parallel battery pos cable. So I could remove the detachable pos cable and eliminate all battery draw. Do the lithium batteries need to be isolated?
The new PD4560LiCSV Lithium converter will be in service all the time 24/7 keeping the lithium batteries fully charged and providing 12v for those 12v functions along with 110v. Am I correct and is this way to go? Yes, I am over analyzing, I can I'm a Libra.

Sagecoachdriver · 12-18-2018, 09:55 PM

I spoke with my neighbor who is still installing Battle Born Lithium batteries. He is doing a lot of rewiring on his toy hauler for these new batteries. He asked me how the BIM (Precision Circuits Battery control panel) would handle the alternator charging Lithium Batteries since it's a factor of how the batteries are charged. I haven't a clue other than the alternator will on charge for the first hour of driving per PC's description. Not sure of the voltage.

Sagecoachdriver · 12-18-2018, 11:04 PM

My neighbor had a good point. If I upgraded my PD4560 converter/charger to the Lithium model, it states not to be used with flooded batteries. So the currently, engine Flooded cell battery is charged by the alternator and the converter/charger. That new Lithium model converter/charger is not going to work well with the engine battery and the alternator. So Precision Circuits has a new BIM for Lithium batteries which is supposed to take care of the issue.I'm going to have to give them a call tomorrow and find out more. Looks like it's and $250. Getting really expensive to make the upgrade. $2000 for the batteries, $250 for the PD4560LiCSV converter/charger and another $250 for the new BIM. Looking at around $2,500.

mlmay12 · 12-18-2018, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sagecoachdriver

My neighbor had a good point. If I upgraded my PD4560 converter/charger to the Lithium model, it states not to be used with flooded batteries. So the currently, engine Flooded cell battery is charged by the alternator and the converter/charger. That new Lithium model converter/charger is not going to work well with the engine battery and the alternator. So Precision Circuits has a new BIM for Lithium batteries which is supposed to take care of the issue.I'm going to have to give them a call tomorrow and find out more. Looks like it's and $250. Getting really expensive to make the upgrade. $2000 for the batteries, $250 for the PD4560LiCSV converter/charger and another $250 for the new BIM. Looking at around $2,500.

The engine/chassis battery stops charging when fully charged at about 13.2V by the converter. I checked this with a voltmeter several times. At least on my brand of Motorhome, Dynamax Isata 3 with a MB Sprinter Chassis. I'm assuming the BIM controls this to turn off charging. I have had no problems in 10 months with any of my batteries.

Sagecoachdriver · 12-19-2018, 12:59 AM

Mimay12, do you have the Precision Circuits BIM panel located in the step well?

mlmay12 · 12-19-2018, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sagecoachdriver

Mimay12, do you have the Precision Circuits BIM panel located in the step well?

Yes I do. 0n the BIM it says "Forest River BCC, 00-10033-300".

Sagecoachdriver · 12-19-2018, 10:21 AM

I called Precision Circuits this morning and they were very helpful. They said yes there would be an issue of the PD4560LiCSV over charging the engine battery and also a bigger risk of the alternator burning up. They have a new LiBIM ($175) module that will isolate when needed and properly allow charging. However, it doesn't quite fit in the Battery control Center box and cable have to be adjusted in length. Other options are to mount the new BIM outside the box and rewire. They do have a new Battery Control Center for this module but it costs $500+.

mlmay12 · 12-19-2018, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sagecoachdriver

I called Precision Circuits this morning and they were very helpful. They said yes there would be an issue of the PD4560LiCSV over charging the engine battery and also a bigger risk of the alternator burning up. They have a new LiBIM ($175) module that will isolate when needed and properly allow charging. However, it doesn't quite fit in the Battery control Center box and cable have to be adjusted in length. Other options are to mount the new BIM outside the box and rewire. They do have a new Battery Control Center for this module but it costs $500+.

I don't quite understand how the Converter can cause damage to the Alternator as they are not running at the same time. Also the Alternator probably puts out 14.2V and the Converter puts out 14.2 to 14.6. After all the discussion I will run a few more tests on my Chassis Battery to double check the shut off but I checked it several times before (difficult to get to on a sprinter). I have an ULTRA-Gauge OBD II Engine Monitor that displays Chassis Battery Voltage so maybe I will play with that. I haven't detected any problems so I will continue the way it is. Precision Circuits may not understand the big picture of how everything goes together. I do not want to change my Battery Control Center Box unless I run into some kind of problem.

Sagecoachdriver · 12-19-2018, 12:04 PM

mimay12 wrote:
"I don't quite understand how the Converter can cause damage to the Alternator as they are not running at the same time. Also the Alternator probably puts out 14.2V and the Converter puts out 14.2 to 14.6. After all the discussion I will run a few more tests on my Chassis Battery to double check the shut off but I checked it several times before (difficult to get to on a sprinter). I have an ULTRA-Gauge OBD II Engine Monitor that displays Chassis Battery Voltage so maybe I will play with that. I haven't detected any problems so I will continue the way it is. Precision Circuits may not understand the big picture of how everything goes together. I do not want to change my Battery Control Center Box unless I run into some kind of problem."

Perhaps a call to PC would clear up some of the confusion I've created. I think it's because the alternator would over charge the engine battery as it would continually charge at 14.6v or over charge the engine battery by having the converter charger charge both engine and house batteries continually at 14.6. Just a guess.
I just don't want to put another $175 or $500 into it. Could end up costing almost $3,000 total with shipping and CA sales tax.

Sagecoachdriver · 12-19-2018, 12:23 PM

I just took a look and under the hood at the engine battery is a fused relay. It was disconnected, then it would no longer be bi-directional and the alternator would only charge the house battery and the converter/charger only the coach batteries. No chance of damage or over charging. But will the engine battery draw down from parasitic charges and be dead when you need it?

mlmay12 · 12-19-2018, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sagecoachdriver

mimay12 wrote:
"I don't quite understand how the Converter can cause damage to the Alternator as they are not running at the same time. Also the Alternator probably puts out 14.2V and the Converter puts out 14.2 to 14.6. After all the discussion I will run a few more tests on my Chassis Battery to double check the shut off but I checked it several times before (difficult to get to on a sprinter). I have an ULTRA-Gauge OBD II Engine Monitor that displays Chassis Battery Voltage so maybe I will play with that. I haven't detected any problems so I will continue the way it is. Precision Circuits may not understand the big picture of how everything goes together. I do not want to change my Battery Control Center Box unless I run into some kind of problem."

Perhaps a call to PC would clear up some of the confusion I've created. I think it's because the alternator would over charge the engine battery as it would continually charge at 14.6v or over charge the engine battery by having the converter charger charge both engine and house batteries continually at 14.6. Just a guess.
I just don't want to put another $175 or $500 into it. Could end up costing almost $3,000 total with shipping and CA sales tax.

I use my converter circuit breaker to eliminate any potential problems. Its easy to shut it off to turn the converter completely off when driving if you run your generator and will eliminate any potential problems with the vehicle alternator. That way if you need to run your generator for air conditioning or some other 115V purpose while driving it is completely out of the picture. I even often leave it off when on shore power unless I need to charge my coach batteries and then only turn it on when my batteries start getting low. I have left it on for several days at a time with no problems but don't see a need to do that regularly as my batteries last for a very long time even with lights on and watching TV. I do have the luxury of not needing shore power when storing my MH as I have 400W of solar.

I installed Lithium Batteries because I do mostly boondocking and the convenience of recharging my batteries in about an hour on the generator at sunset is very convenient. I have never run out of power overnight and rarely get down to 70%. With the ability to go below 50% without worrying about damaging the battery's I always wake up to the smell of coffee brewing in the morning with no problem without being on shore power.

I tend to overthink anything electrical because of my 35 year background as an Aircraft Electrician in the Navy and am very comfortable with my installation. That said I always research any new developments like the issues you have brought up with the Starting Battery and will check it again while running the converter. I don't know if it is the Forest River install of the Battery Control Center or the Mercedes Benz Sprinter built in Battery Control circuits but something stops current going to my Starting Battery when it is fully charged at 13.2 Volts. You would probably have to investigate yours to see if it turns off as well.

Remember the Battle Born Batteries have a built in management system to eliminate any problem with overcharging them.

Sorry about the long post but the bottom line is I love this system and have had no problems with it.

mlmay12 · 12-19-2018, 03:45 PM

OK, ran my whole system start to finish. Both Coach Lithium Batteries were at 13.2V and Chassis Starting Battery was at 12.7V. Turned on Converter Circuit Breaker with shore power plugged in. Victron Monitor showed 59A charging current. All batteries started climbing evenly and after an hour had reached 13.62V. I then heard an audible click from the Battery Control Center and the Starting Battery dropped quickly to 12.78V and remained there. The Coach Batteries continued to charge and were at 13.8V I am leaving my converter on to see how high they go and will post it later.

Sagecoachdriver · 12-19-2018, 04:47 PM

So the engine alternator will only charge the house batteries for one hour of driving unless the voltage is below a certain threshold. Better off with lithium batteries to use solar or run the generator. So I found by disconnecting the cable at the engine battery fuse box for the BIM that it prevents the bi-directional charging. But does the engine battery need charging from the converter charger? I think the alternator will handle that. The dash radio is powered by the house batteries. Is there anything else that may provide a parasitic drain causing it to go dead while dry camping?

mlmay12 · 12-19-2018, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sagecoachdriver

So the engine alternator will only charge the house batteries for one hour of driving unless the voltage is below a certain threshold. Better off with lithium batteries to use solar or run the generator. So I found by disconnecting the cable at the engine battery fuse box for the BIM that it prevents the bi-directional charging. But does the engine battery need charging from the converter charger? I think the alternator will handle that. The dash radio is powered by the house batteries. Is there anything else that may provide a parasitic drain causing it to go dead while dry camping?

Nothing to my knowledge except maybe the engine computers but there should not be enough to drain your battery. Think if the chassis was bot turned into a Motorhome and was a van instead, should never be a problem.

I finished charging all my batteries with the converter and it was just as I expected. The output of the converter went from 59A down to about 8A just to maintain the charge. Starting battery was about 12.7V and coach batteries were at 14.4V. When I turn off my converter the coach batteries will eventually settle down to about 13.5V and stay there.

Sagecoachdriver · 12-19-2018, 06:29 PM

Your system looks great! You know a lot more about this than I do. I was a tin can sailor QM2, no help there. Did take a few courses in Stationary engineering and electrical theory at the local occupational center 30 years ago, but I don’t remember much.
I will probably be upgrading the batteries sometime next year along with the PD4560LiCSV converter. Will hold off on PC Li BIM.

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