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Old 09-28-2017, 10:31 AM   #21
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Wow. This a Debbie Downer thread about some of the best places in the world.

We go to a lot of national parks. We go during off season to avoid the giant crowds. When we do have to go during the summer (grandkids), we plan well ahead of time and camp close but not in the park, and then use the Public transportation. We follow the rules instead of complaining and trying to circumvent them. Are the rules all logical? Not to our uninformed minds, but I'm sure most have a reason.

We are lucky in NM to have the Gila National Forest where you can go and not see anybody for weeks. I'm sure there are areas near you that offer the same seclusion if that is what you are after.

Are crowds for everybody? No, but we deal with them so we can enjoy the end goal. Much better than being negative and trying to pass that negativity along
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Old 09-28-2017, 10:58 AM   #22
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Best thing to do is be good ambassadors for RV owners as a whole when you visit these places. Unfortunately, the ATV/OHV crowd has been destructive and is known for drinking/driving (in my state at least). Most property owners are fed up with them and we are even having trouble now with them riding on our main highways in huge packs. They have been known to cut fences, etc to ride where they please.
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Old 09-28-2017, 11:07 AM   #23
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You are complaining about not being able to safely park overnight in a private entity's parking lot, used for commerce for their customers?? Or that most of them won't let you??? Seriously???

You bought a motorhome. Pay to park it in a campground.

And tenters have a right to camp too. Don't be a snob.
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Old 09-28-2017, 11:14 AM   #24
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One of the things I've noticed in NPs across the west is that I always run into foreigners when I hike. Europeans commonly hike more than most Americans and typically stay more fit as seniors. In fact, I've definitely met more foreign seniors hiking than American ones. The campgrounds are packed but my husband and I can easily find solitude by taking a hike.

My experience has also been that many (maybe most) people don't wander far from their cars. At YS, if there's a roadside thermal site with one near the parking lot and one a 1/4 mile away, you be almost alone if you walk the quarter mile!

As a lifelong hiker, snowshoer and cross country skier, I do appreciate being able to choose some areas that limit access to motorized vehicles. Motors can be heard from miles away and, personally, I'd rather hear the wind and the wildlife. There should be places for both kinds of recreation but everything can't be open to both.

Yes, budgets for parks and monuments have been slashed to the bone. That means every expense on site goes higher and higher and they become less affordable, and less well-maintained, each year. It would be easier to make them more accessible if we could all agree that preserving wild places was a worthy national goal and we lobbied our lawmakers to fund them properly. Unfortunately, I think a lot of people figure they'll never go there so why should their tax dollars be "wasted" on them. I wish people valued a sense of community more.
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Old 09-28-2017, 11:25 AM   #25
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ishwashgus

Sorry to hear about your experiences in Colorado. Colorado used to be a quiet and conservative straight with incredible access to the outdoors. Unfortunately, the legalization of marijuana has brought a lot of undesirables into our state. I was told by a police officer that many of his encounters are with folks from out of state who moved to Colorado because here they can collect welfare and legally smoke pot. Crime has also increased because we seem to have a large drifter population due to the lax pot laws. No where is really safe anymore. There are scary people everywhere, not just at Walmart parking lots. We had a mountain biker shot and killed 2 weeks ago at Mt. Herman-a spot where I hike, bike and run my dogs off leash for the past 18 years. There was also reports of a person harassing hikers there with a hatchet during the same period (perhaps same guy?)


The access and use restrictions regarding public lands in Colorado is getting worse each year.

I'm an avid boondocker and each season I got depressed when I see areas shut down. A disturbing trend is the closure of dispersed camping areas for "environmental" reasons and the opening of fee campgrounds to replace those areas. Backside of Pikes Peak is a perfect example of this occuring.

Another example is that Forestry Service took advantage of the closure of Cottonwood Pass which leads to the ATV/Camping Mecca called Taylor Park. During the pass closure, the Forestry Service decided to close many dispersed camping areas between Tin Cup and Taylor Park Trading Post. It was done for "environmental" reasons but the real reason was that TinCup property owners despise ATV traffic. I've been camping at Tincup for years and the only thing that has changed is that I see a lot more California license plates parked in front of the homes there.

For hiking, there is talk about limiting access to Hanging Lake near Glenwood Springs and Conundrum Hot Sprign (steep 8.5 mile hike each way to a natural hotspring on a mountain)

Each year I see more ATV trails closed. Seems like Forest Service workers only job is to stake trail closure signs into the ground. Mootorized OHV enthusiasts are not as well organized as the environmentalists. The thing that disgusts me is that environmental groups outside of Colorado are given legal standing inside of Colorado for lawsuits. The Sierra Club's lawsuit is the reason Pikes Peak is now paved all the way to the mountain top.

We are slowly losing the West and Colorado is a great example of this. What hikers, mountain bikers, and horseback riders don't understand is that the goal of many of these groups is to ban all human access to our public lands. Mountain bikers, hikes, and horseback riders will be next after power sport access is banned.

Enjoy the "West" while you can. The huge spike in Colorado's population growth is making it difficult to access some of the popular scenic areas due to traffic.
I hate it when people try to blame drugs for problems. People are the problem, not drugs. A little personal responsibility goes a long way. So far as bad people coming to Colorado to get high, keep in mind there is a good side too. As in revenue to help homeless and drug-addicted people - revenue that does not come out of your pocket.

The fact is that the world is becoming more crowded and the problems are occurring because of PEOPLE, not POT. If more people took into consideration the impact of their behaviors, and actually tried to be better about living in society, recognizing that the world is not their trash can and that this is not a 'free-for-all' planet, where you can do whatever you want wherever, we would all get along so much better.
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Old 09-28-2017, 11:29 AM   #26
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Best thing to do is be good ambassadors for RV owners as a whole when you visit these places. Unfortunately, the ATV/OHV crowd has been destructive and is known for drinking/driving (in my state at least). Most property owners are fed up with them and we are even having trouble now with them riding on our main highways in huge packs. They have been known to cut fences, etc to ride where they please.
It sucks when people generalize like this. Yeah, I know, there are bad people on OHVs that do bad things. Just like there are bad people in RV's that leave their trash in Walmart parking lots, dump their black tanks wherever they happen to be camping and camp in places they should not. Does that make ALL RV people bad people? Using this logic, the only answer is YES!
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Old 09-28-2017, 12:57 PM   #27
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[QUOTE=Skyliner;1634703]ishwashgus

Actually, Skyliner, Colorado still "has it" more than anywhere else, in my opinion. There is so much that is still beautiful and such an abundance of beautiful places, that you can still, almost, find that "zone of extreme satisfaction" that is absent at many of our totally overrun National Parks, some of which I visited were more work than pleasure. Rocky Mountain National Park and Mesa Verde are still way up there in my estimation. But fires and the spruce beetle and the pressure or impact of zillions of visitors have taken their toll. Colorado started out way ahead of other states and will never lose its place as the best summertime state to visit.

Sequoia is still up there, the Coastal Redwood Highway is still up there. Fire has ravaged Kings Canyon, but it hasn't hurt its redwoods. I wouldn't waste my time going to Yosemite, except maybe in late spring when there is much snowmelt coming down all the streams and over the waterfalls. Now that the Glaciers have shrunk so badly, I am not sure Glacier is worth going and seeing, just well drive the Million Dollar Highway in Colorado.

Yellowstone is recovering nicely from its almost being completely burned off a few years ago, but you know, people, there needs to be a bit of thinning of the plethora of view-blocking little trees next to the roads so you can see maybe a wild animal or two.

My problem is I still remember Colorado in the 50's prior to all the stuff that has happened down through the years.

Sorry this has been seen as a Debbie Downer thread to you, Other Poster, but I believe this to be very valid batch of comments. I don't view our wonderful west as a cockeyed optimist. Things were not just wonderful everywhere I went.
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Old 09-28-2017, 01:18 PM   #28
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I did wait to go until all the yard apes were back in school...teehee
Disturbing choice of words...
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Old 09-28-2017, 01:24 PM   #29
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Sorry this has been seen as a Debbie Downer thread to you, Other Poster, but I believe this to be very valid batch of comments. I don't view our wonderful west as a cockeyed optimist. Things were not just wonderful everywhere I went.
Cockeyed optimist, realist, pessimist, fatalist. Folks perception of the world seems to be exactly what they are really expecting.
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Old 09-28-2017, 01:29 PM   #30
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Glacier to us is worth seeing!

When we started our 2 year trip we would occasionally stop at NP's if they were close by. After going to Glacier, we now make a point of hitting NP's as much as possible. We were in Glacier during the summer and were expecting a throng of crowds making the park less enjoyable. To our surprise, it was not overly crowded, never had an issue finding parking for our truck and went on some incredible hikes. On one hike, one of the highlights of our trip, when we got to the turn around point a herd of Big Horn Sheep went by us within 50 yards, it was amazing. We also saw 4 grizzly bears while in Glacier. I would never say Glacier is not worth seeing, especially since it was one of my kid's, (11 and 14), favorites... We couldn't get reservations in/near Yellowstone so we hit it after most schools started and it too was not as bad as expected. It was much more crowded than Glacier but again never had an issue finding parking. You mentioned Rocky MT and Mesa Verde and I agree those were nice. I would have to say Rocky MT, at least where we visited from, the Estes Park area, was more crowded than Glacier. Anyway, everyone has their likes and dislikes and it's funny how our 2 year trip started as a see every state and has turned into see every National Park in every state and mostly because of our experiences in Glacier and Acadia, (not west but was one of our favorites).
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Old 09-28-2017, 03:12 PM   #31
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[QUOTE=ishwashgus;1634878]
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ishwashgus




Yellowstone is recovering nicely from its almost being completely burned off a few years ago, but you know, people, there needs to be a bit of thinning of the plethora of view-blocking little trees next to the roads so you can see maybe a wild animal or two.
A few years ago? Yellowstone's big fire was in 1988. 29 years ago.
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Old 09-28-2017, 06:07 PM   #32
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We traveled to several of the large, popular parks out west last year and experienced the same thing. This may not be right of me, but I was frustrated that many of the visitors in the crowd were foreign tourists. Our national parks have almost become inaccessible to the average American due to cost and other factors. Also, the park service is under tremendous strain right now. They are severely underfunded in many cases and try to make the money up with visitors. They don't have funds for capital projects and maintenance and are subject to a never-ending hiring freeze due to the new administration (almost all agencies are). All this adds up to bad news for our parks.
My wife and pulled a pop up camper last September to Dinosaur, Capital Reef, Bryce, North Rim of Grand Canyon and several Utah state parks and had no over crowding issues. We stayed in a couple of the parks and at private campgrounds for the others. I guess it was the time of the year.
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Old 09-28-2017, 08:34 PM   #33
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If you want to avoid the foreigners, don't go to a Nat Park in Aug. Europe shuts down during that month and takes a 4 week vacation. Seriously, I use to be a buyer and always had to plan for the Aug shut down for parts coming from Europe. They come and spend a lot of money here. I would not complain about the winter rain and snow fall in the West. The West has been in a drought for many years and it was very welcome to have water back in the reservoirs. Fire is a natural part of the West, except for the wingnuts who leave campfires unattended and/or like to watch things burn.
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Old 09-29-2017, 10:39 AM   #34
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We took the shuttle two years ago, and it was definitely the way to enjoy the scenery and information the driver gave to us non-stop. The road is also VERY narrow, and making those turns by someone not familiar with the road could be frightening.
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Old 09-29-2017, 11:57 AM   #35
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No more posts by me. Ended with spirited discussion though, huh!

I pretty much was simply shocked seeing all these parks that I was fairly familiar with 25 years ago.

Heard from some of you privately and realized I was irritating people, people I would probably like and that would probably even like me...chuckle...

Later...
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Old 09-29-2017, 12:49 PM   #36
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Yes maybe we need to bring back the "CCC Camps" to build/expand our State and Federal Parks! Youroo!!
I've been saying that for a while now, most NP, NF, some State parks were made by the CCC. If they want to create jobs and give our youth something to do (besides sitting on their phones!) why not bring the CCC back, we need that resource all over the country and all our parks/trails could benefit from them!! My dad was a CCC and said it was the best thing for him at the time!!
I SAY BRING THE CCC BACK!!!
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Old 09-29-2017, 01:31 PM   #37
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Bill Clinton did try to do something similar to the CCC by starting Americorps. Young people committed to 2 years of community service in exchange for college tuition grants., etc. They could do a variety of things like teaching in poor communities or working on environmental conservation projects. The program is a public/private partnership and a million kids have participated.

I’ve run into crews working on Forest Service trails many times.

I don’t know where it stands now, but Trump’s first budget proposal eliminated all government funding.
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Old 09-29-2017, 01:34 PM   #38
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Y'all be's funny.
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Old 09-29-2017, 01:42 PM   #39
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Bill Clinton did try to do something similar to the CCC by starting Americorps. Young people committed to 2 years of community service in exchange for college tuition grants., etc. They could do a variety of things like teaching in poor communities or working on environmental conservation projects. The program is a public/private partnership and a million kids have participated.

I’ve run into crews working on Forest Service trails many times.

I don’t know where it stands now, but Trump’s first budget proposal eliminated all government funding.
There are Still Lots of Kids doing "Community Service" who should be "Doing Time"! Youroo!!
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Old 09-29-2017, 05:01 PM   #40
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It is because we enjoy national parks that we opted to switch from a MH to a TT. In 2015 we went to Yellowstone and from there to Yosemite. National Park roads are de minimus and getting worse. Fortunately, we rented a car to tour Yellowstone. The one surprise we had there was all the tour buses and all full of Chinese.

Coming down over Tioga Pass taught us a lesson about researching routes in advance. Our MH brakes just flat quit when we parked in front of El Capitan - happily, they were just overheated.

Bryce Canyon NP can handle larger vehicles; Zion NP cannot.

This leads me back to the points I think the OP was trying to make. Yes, our NP infrastructure needs a massive upgrade which will not be coming until a new administration resides in Washington - if then. The 2nd problem is that too many people want to see them in the same two months. During other months much of the crowding can be attributed to tourists.

What's the solution? Fewer people and lots more money. Other than that useless observation I have no idea.
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