Quality control? No Way!

[capucine]

When you own a recreation vehicle of any makes except a few in the higher prices brackets you have to be a jack of all trades in order to cope with your toy!!!!

[kbrown1075]

Originally Posted by capucine

When you own a recreation vehicle of any makes except a few in the higher prices brackets you have to be a jack of all trades in order to cope with your toy!!!!

I absolutely agree. We have not had an issue that required a warranty claim or even a visit back to our dealer. I grew up on the New England coast boating. I was given my first boat and motor when I was 10 years old. I learned at a very Young age, that if I wanted to enjoy "my toy" I had better learn how to work on it and keep it running (both boat and motor were very used). That has carried on throughout my life. When I was younger and could only afford used cars, I learned to work on them (I am NO mechanic). When I was able to afford new cars, I often found that I would have to return to the dealer for little warranty items (I could have fixed myself, but why, it's under warranty). A TT, 5'er, MH, is the same thing but much larger, so the issues are amplified. As I grew, and grew into larger "toys", my learning also grew.

If you have entered this "hobby" or are thinking of entering this hobby, be prepared. Things are going to break. You will have 3 choices: 1. Fix it yourself and continue on your holiday. 2. Find a warranty facility and have them repair it and enjoy your holiday. 3. Get mad at the manufacturer, the dealer, the RV washer, the public works dept, the CG owner, etc... and totally ruin your whole RV experience.

We don't live in a perfect world. When was the last time you bought an appliance, car, boat, lawn mower, snow blower, etc... and got the "value" you expected out of it? Been a long time for me! We purchased a new luxury car for my DW early this past year. She drives it 98% of the time. I drove it a couple months ago and heard a sound I didn't like from the drive train. We brought it to the dealer and advised them. They heard it, agreed that something is not right, turned the info over to the manufacturer and now we wait. Either we will get a fix or due to the fact a case has been issued, it will be handled if and when there is a failure. No worries, a little disappointment, but when all is said and done, we will continue on with our life. Enjoying every minute.

Enjoy RVing. There's lots of speed bumps.

[ltypd]

Originally Posted by kbrown1075

I absolutely agree. We have not had an issue that required a warranty claim or even a visit back to our dealer. I grew up on the New England coast boating. I was given my first boat and motor when I was 10 years old. I learned at a very Young age, that if I wanted to enjoy "my toy" I had better learn how to work on it and keep it running (both boat and motor were very used). That has carried on throughout my life. When I was younger and could only afford used cars, I learned to work on them (I am NO mechanic). When I was able to afford new cars, I often found that I would have to return to the dealer for little warranty items (I could have fixed myself, but why, it's under warranty). A TT, 5'er, MH, is the same thing but much larger, so the issues are amplified. As I grew, and grew into larger "toys", my learning also grew.

If you have entered this "hobby" or are thinking of entering this hobby, be prepared. Things are going to break. You will have 3 choices: 1. Fix it yourself and continue on your holiday. 2. Find a warranty facility and have them repair it and enjoy your holiday. 3. Get mad at the manufacturer, the dealer, the RV washer, the public works dept, the CG owner, etc... and totally ruin your whole RV experience.

We don't live in a perfect world. When was the last time you bought an appliance, car, boat, lawn mower, snow blower, etc... and got the "value" you expected out of it? Been a long time for me! We purchased a new luxury car for my DW early this past year. She drives it 98% of the time. I drove it a couple months ago and heard a sound I didn't like from the drive train. We brought it to the dealer and advised them. They heard it, agreed that something is not right, turned the info over to the manufacturer and now we wait. Either we will get a fix or due to the fact a case has been issued, it will be handled if and when there is a failure. No worries, a little disappointment, but when all is said and done, we will continue on with our life. Enjoying every minute.

Enjoy RVing. There's lots of speed bumps.

To answer your question, i have owned cars that I have driven over 200,000 miles that have needed minimal repairs; appliances for 15 years or more that have not fallen apart. To accept the multitude of problems as acceptable only perpetuates the shoddy construction and consumer be damned attitude. RV owners are being played as suckers. If someone smacks you in the face do you thank them or do you defend yourself? Manufacturers need to be held accountable for the products they produce, if no one complains they have no incentive to build a better product.

[sfrye5853]

Originally Posted by kbrown1075

I absolutely agree. We have not had an issue that required a warranty claim or even a visit back to our dealer. I grew up on the New England coast boating. I was given my first boat and motor when I was 10 years old. I learned at a very Young age, that if I wanted to enjoy "my toy" I had better learn how to work on it and keep it running (both boat and motor were very used). That has carried on throughout my life. When I was younger and could only afford used cars, I learned to work on them (I am NO mechanic). When I was able to afford new cars, I often found that I would have to return to the dealer for little warranty items (I could have fixed myself, but why, it's under warranty). A TT, 5'er, MH, is the same thing but much larger, so the issues are amplified. As I grew, and grew into larger "toys", my learning also grew.

If you have entered this "hobby" or are thinking of entering this hobby, be prepared. Things are going to break. You will have 3 choices: 1. Fix it yourself and continue on your holiday. 2. Find a warranty facility and have them repair it and enjoy your holiday. 3. Get mad at the manufacturer, the dealer, the RV washer, the public works dept, the CG owner, etc... and totally ruin your whole RV experience.

We don't live in a perfect world. When was the last time you bought an appliance, car, boat, lawn mower, snow blower, etc... and got the "value" you expected out of it? Been a long time for me! We purchased a new luxury car for my DW early this past year. She drives it 98% of the time. I drove it a couple months ago and heard a sound I didn't like from the drive train. We brought it to the dealer and advised them. They heard it, agreed that something is not right, turned the info over to the manufacturer and now we wait. Either we will get a fix or due to the fact a case has been issued, it will be handled if and when there is a failure. No worries, a little disappointment, but when all is said and done, we will continue on with our life. Enjoying every minute.

Enjoy RVing. There's lots of speed bumps.

You make very valid points and I don't disagree. However, I will present you and others with this challenge... the more we accept status quo, the more we will get status quo. As customers, we must demand quality (be it in a recreational vehicle, appliance, car, mower, house etc). If we don't demand it and vote with our purchases, what reason does any manufacturer have to produce it? If we accept a poor quality product, then the manufacturer has no reason to step up quality.

That being said, I thoroughly enjoy my PrimeTime Tracer. The quality is acceptable to me and any issues I have had have been handled expeditiously by PT employees and management.

[kbrown1075]

Originally Posted by sfrye5853

You make very valid points and I don't disagree. However, I will present you and others with this challenge... the more we accept status quo, the more we will get status quo. As customers, we must demand quality (be it in a recreational vehicle, appliance, car, mower, house etc). If we don't demand it and vote with our purchases, what reason does any manufacturer have to produce it? If we accept a poor quality product, then the manufacturer has no reason to step up quality.

That being said, I thoroughly enjoy my PrimeTime Tracer. The quality is acceptable to me and any issues I have had have been handled expeditiously by PT employees and management.

I agree with what you have said. My solution is not to buy the product again when time comes. I purchased an SUV 10 years ago that the front end would shimmy at 60 to 65 mph. I returned it to the dealer several times with no resolution. I contacted the manufacturer and was told that they could not help me. My DW would not drive the SUV and we needed to move to one vehicle (I ended up with a take home company vehicle) that was capable of towing our boat. We had to trade in her car and the SUV, and took a $7,000.00 loss due to the market of that particular SUV. I promised that I would never buy a vehicle made by that manufacturer. I stand by that for the rest of my time here. That is how I handle poor quality and workmanship. I am no different, just can't write a book. I find some problems acceptable, as long as they are handle in a professional manner. There are so many components of our RV's that are made by other manufacturers that have no clue who is getting the product. I try to look at things objectively. I don't want, and have not had to, drag the TT 2 hours to the dealer. What small issues presented themselves, I took care of. Every time we used our boat there were issues to deal with, dead battery, light bulb out, loose screws, etc.. I guess I am just used to the small things as part of using something. I do wish EVERYONE great enjoyment out of their RV and you find successful resolution to your issues.

[louis cherry]

Read "Factory Work Problems" I put in some time ago. I feel for you all and hope you get all your problems taken care of by Forest River but don't whole your breath. I have had four trailers and three motorhomes but my 2004 ts 370 was by far the worest .the others were all fixed by the dealers but when the dealer telles you this needs to go back to the factory,you can bet its bad.

[F and E Damp]

I would never consider buying new from any of the low-to-middle price range RV manufacturers. Can't afford to anyway, but the quality issues put me off even if I could.

Having done some cabinet re-build work on my GT325 due to water ingress in the living room slide, I'm amazed at how it was built. It looks like the cabinets were made from raw materials inside the rig, not pre-assembled and then installed. As far as I could tell, the cabinets (overhead the dinette and sofa) were held in place solely by screws in a 1/8" lauan plywood skin glued to the block stryofoam insulation. All but four of the screws fell out as I was taking the old cabinets down. The screws were all rusty from water leakage. The new ones that I built are screwed to the longitudinal square steel tube structure inside the ceiling.

Sure, the manufacturer of the RV can't control quality problems with supplier items (fridge, furnace, water heater, etc.) other than switching brands, but the competitors' gear often isn't any better. The RV builder DOES have control over the "house" structrure, its ouside skin, the slide seals, the cabinets and furnishings it builds. Quality there can be poor to middling, if my rig is anything to go by.

Real quality has to be engineeered in with designs that can't get messed up no matter how basic the skills of the assemblers are. Post manufacture QC can't fix dumb designs that the assembly workers mess up. Evidence from my Georgetown suggests that there are some fundamental flaws in both design and production engineering which I'll end up fixing over the years.

[shurack24]

I personally am offending/insulted by any comment that shoddy quality should be accepted as the norm of owning an RV.
Our Palomino unit had numerous problems that are just plain sloppy. From plumbing fittings that were tightened no more than finger tight (leaks), to fresh water tank fittings that were not even connected. There is NO excuse for the sloppy workmanship we saw.
My analogy is to your car comparrison is that when you buy a car, you simply expect all four wheels to be properly attached; you would not ever consider the possiblity that one of the wheels lugnuts was only tightened finger tight.
How on earth can anyone rationalize fingertight connections on an RV as "normal"?

[biken201]

The solution to the problem is for buyers to go over the new units with a fine tooth comb, and not take possession of a unit unless it is in acceptable condition. The wrench in that argument is that most people are either too excited and just want to get their new toy home, or don't have the knowledge to know what SHOULD be acceptable.

I'm as guilty as the rest. When I took possession of my new Starcraft popup several years ago, the craftmanship was awful. Lots of missing or mis-directed screws were the least of things that I had to fix. The dealer walk-thru on that unit was very rushed (due to it being the end of the day), but I don't expect they were looking to correct problems anyway.

So far we've been lucky with our recent upgrade (Roo 233S), and the workmanship seems to be pretty decent. Our walk-thru with this dealer was much more comprehensive, and they are still in contact with us to ensure everything is to satisfaction.

We spent a good 3+ hours with our dealer going over the unit, and left with a good understanding of what potential problems to look for.

I would think it would not take long for a company to correct the problem of poor quality or go out of business if customers were regularly refusing to accept units that didn't meet expectations.

All of the less expensive TT builders are guilty of the described quality control issues, so if ONE could churn out a consistently superior product at an affordable price, they'd win! The problem is, we the consumers keep accepting the junk they produce, so what incentive is there to change.

[TURBS]

Originally Posted by shurack24

I personally am offending/insulted by any comment that shoddy quality should be accepted as the norm of owning an RV.
Our Palomino unit had numerous problems that are just plain sloppy. From plumbing fittings that were tightened no more than finger tight (leaks), to fresh water tank fittings that were not even connected. There is NO excuse for the sloppy workmanship we saw.
My analogy is to your car comparrison is that when you buy a car, you simply expect all four wheels to be properly attached; you would not ever consider the possiblity that one of the wheels lugnuts was only tightened finger tight.
How on earth can anyone rationalize fingertight connections on an RV as "normal"?

While you are right that you cannot compare cars,boats,truck etc etc
most items if not all should be caught at the dealer!
No person should take delivery without a proper and adequate pdi!
turn knobs twist levers flick switches run water move slides.
no only is pdi in affect to familiarize you with the rv and fine any defects before you take delivery.
Google pdi checklist and see how in-depth it is.
if the dealer rushes you through pdi that means something to me.

[lindy]

Everyone talks about not accepting shoddy workmanship. Well the only way this will be stopped is if EVERYONE STOPS buying whatever it is that's shoddy (RV's). Well that will never happen. About all we can do is a 1000% PDI, noting every, even minor defects no matter how small, and then telling the dealer he'll get payment once ALL defects are 100% corrected. This means we as buyers need to realize that once the PDI is over it might be up to 60 days or more before we can enjoy our RV. By doing this it puts the financial strain on the dealer being as he has a unit on site that's sold but no money for it till fixed. Too many people want to Sign-and-Drive the same day, like you can with a car and forget that the RV is a very detailed complicated item, not just a simple trl or MH.

[capucine]

F and E Damp: what you bring on the way the cabinets are attached to the ceiling or somewhere else happened to myself also. My cabinets over the pull out were separating from the ceiling and also a few of my drawers were coming off at the floor bracket that hold the drawer assembly. The big problem with this is the way they are attaching the screws. The screws should be installed on an angle to make sure that they will not come apart because of the material they are screwed on. When you have only a small board of lauan and a block of styrofoam for sure that if the screws are installed straight up they will have a good chance they will separate if you put a bit heavy in the cabiners. And to rectify this issue it does not cost nothing except some thinking. I installed the screws on an angle and it cannot comes apart. For an exemple the board that was held on the floor for the drawer section had only one screw and the screw was installed strait with no angle. I reinstalled 2 screws on an angle and it fixed the problem forever. 2 of my drawers came loose at the floor because of this problem.

[Vols]

Sorry bout your trip. The walk around PDI was pretty basic at my dealer. A retired older guy on his spare time from golf course (that's how he described it) does the walk around to stay busy. We found stickers (design) peeling off, Ac vent not blowing in kitchen, and all screws stripped in lever that holds open both doors. He's answer was "welcome to tt ownership you'll either fix it or live with it"
This was before 18 hrs later my door latch broke and had to take back to repair . They tried saying 4-5 days for new door assembly, I went off! Then they decided to take one from another coach and send me on my way . My sales guy has been amazing during this but their service dept is horrible

[wayne anthony]

My 5th wheel looked great during the walk around by the dealer, but after 17 months I am still finding more than minor problems. Wayne

[EscFmHere]

Learned the PDI lesson with the last coach, we thought. After this one, it will be different next time. The 20 things we had fixed, from running lights to the power steps didn't save us from our first trip being a nightmare.

While we have used this coach more in 7 months than we did our used Class C, there are some things that we didn't think would be bad at PDI or soon after.

Water filtration system, generator, hydraulic system failure, etc. Love our coach, but for this size of commitment we will probably opt for a Tiffin and a very reputable dealer next time. The extra money in brand + dealer price will be worth the piece of mind, but it will all start with a intense PDI, all day if needed.

[EscFmHere]

Originally Posted by bclemens

No one should accept shoddy construction as the "norm". But at the same time, yell at all those people that buy on price alone. Winnebago added more and more (better and better) stuff into their units until they didn't sell any more. Do a google search for a 2012 Winnie or Minnie Winnie. You won't find them. They got too expensive, customers stopped buying them and they stopped building those lines. So you can say you want better and better, but most people don't want to pay for it.

As a manufacturer it is always a fine line. You want to add better and better components, but you still need to make it affordable. Competition still drives costs down and it's easy to fall prey to cost cutting.

My division has sort of done the opposite. We sell to the largest rental firm in Canada. For the past 7 years, I attend their year end fleet meeting with service techs from all of their locations. We sit down for (2) days and track all the problems we had or didn't have. These units get used more in one season of rental than a normal person does in 5 years. We take suggestions, we find new suppliers we design new construction methods. Every year the changes we make to their rental fleet get changed on our retail units as well. The goal is always to make improvements in a value added way. Can we improve it, for the same cost? In most cases we can.

Sometimes we make a change to solve one problem and find out it creates another...but we never stop improving and we never take a day off from Quality control. At the end of the day these are still build by human hands and human hands are not perfect. We put systems and plans in place to catch 100% of all problems, but there is no guaranty that those systems get followed 100% of the time. Until these are built by robots (as if anyone would pay that price) they will still be imperfect.

I guess I get a bit irritated when I see a "Forest River" sucks, when Forest River is a company of 60+ divisions. That's like saying Berkshire Hathaway SUCKS because you had bad service at your local "Dairy Queen" (a division of Berkshire Hathaway in case you didn't know). Or Chevy SUCKS because you bought a Malibu that doesn't even have power seats.

Wow! I love my coach, but for $100k, I never thought I would here someone from the company explain something in that manner.

Don't do the rest of the divisions or your sub-contractors any favors by defending them.

You just stated that I should have spent more money if I wanted everything to work as advertised. I wasn't talking about a lack of heated floors or a veranda, nor was the person that started the string.

Most everyone here was talking about defects in fit, finish, or most importantly function.

[bclemens]

Sorry, I was reading (2) topics at once, similar subject. I don't think I ever said "if you want things to work, spend more" though. The other topic along the same lines someone was complaining about construction on a 7 year old unit. Why buy a wood framed travel trailer when what you wanted was an aluminum framed motorhome, and then complain about how crappy the construction was? Then they lumped every Forest River division in based on that one 7 year old used unit.

[JimF]

Sorry to hear about you misfortune and glad our experience with FR has been 180 degrees away from your problems. Our unit was properly prepped, checked and double checked by our dealer. We have been in the rig for 8 months now and have had one issue of one loose nut on a slide ram (which I fixed myself) otherwise we have been thrilled. Our last rig (factory ordered to spec) had a host of problems back through the selling dealer, about what your experiencing, it was not a FR product. After getting it fixed, mostly by myself as the dealer was useless, it was a great unit for 4 years and many miles of full timing.

I am in agreement with what was said that the selling dealer "should" have caught these issues prior to your walk through on PDI, but can't help but hold FR at fault for letting the rig out the door like that.

Once you’re past these trials I sincerely hope you have a great unit and good future experiences.

[Geaux]

Thinking of getting my TT in Indiana, about 11 months instead of where i live because of poor dealers, hope i don"t have these problems, Forest River will see the light one day.

[carolinasgirl]

Jim F, may I ask what dealer that was that got it right in terms of check out?