Replacing Wet Cells Battery with AGM

[Bentspoon]

Size. It may not be a concern for many but in my class C, 24 foot, the batteries are in one of the entry steps. My space is limited to 2 X size 24's. I can't even think about putting 27's in there. To go larger I would have to go under my diner bench which will require boxes and venting. LiFePO4 will be a welcome answer if my current 140AH total turns out to be insufficient. We haven't really boondocked yet and are inexperienced. I think we will get by with the 70Ah but that remains to be seen. Even if we decide to go the bench route Lithium is better because it requires no venting and can be internally installed. They charge faster. They are just better. Yes, they're expensive.
Bentspoon

[tamdle]

Originally Posted by Bentspoon

Size. It may not be a concern for many but in my class C, 24 foot, the batteries are in one of the entry steps. My space is limited to 2 X size 24's. I can't even think about putting 27's in there. To go larger I would have to go under my diner bench which will require boxes and venting. LiFePO4 will be a welcome answer if my current 140AH total turns out to be insufficient. We haven't really boondocked yet and are inexperienced. I think we will get by with the 70Ah but that remains to be seen. Even if we decide to go the bench route Lithium is better because it requires no venting and can be internally installed. They charge faster. They are just better. Yes, they're expensive.
Bentspoon

I am very inexperienced about this too, however, based on what I know so far, the LiFePO4 battery does not charge well under cold weather and does not hold the charge well if the temperature is too high (ie. 90, 100 or greater degree). For that reason, the location of my lead acid batteries is right under my entry steps and totally open to the environment. If I install the new LiFePO4 in this same location, it would be very insufficient. The best way that I have learned so far, maybe to install it inside the coach where the temperature is controlled. So, that said, may be best to install them under my bed? I saw video that people installed the LiFePO4 batteries in their closet as well.

[jeffnick]

Hey Battery Guru's,
What's the advantage of buying double the needed capacity and discharging to 50% over running a single battery way down often and getting it replaced under warranty? Why not abuse starting batteries with a 3 year free replacement instead of trying to get two expensive deep cycle batteries to last 6 years?

[Comanchecreek]

Can't understand spending a grand on AGM's when you can get 6 volt golf carts at Costco for 90 bucks apiece. Yes you have to periodically add distilled water to them, but the last set I had were 8 years old when I traded the trailer, and they were still going strong. I dry camp and can sit for five or more days without issue. Yes the more you run off them the sooner they go down, but if you are careful, and with new trailers being all LED, you should be good. I supplement with a 3 panel solar set up from Harbor Freight. My Crusader has the exterior plug in setup so easy to hook up, and they will usually keep the batteries up as long as it's a sunny day. I traded off the original 12 volt as soon as I got the trailer home. They usually won't even run one night on the furnace. Good luck on your off the grid adventures.
One more thing is that AGM's need a charger that has the correct charging curve for AGM's. Not sure if your Converter does.

[SidecarFlip]

Originally Posted by Comanchecreek

Can't understand spending a grand on AGM's when you can get 6 volt golf carts at Costco for 90 bucks apiece. Yes you have to periodically add distilled water to them, but the last set I had were 8 years old when I traded the trailer, and they were still going strong. I dry camp and can sit for five or more days without issue. Yes the more you run off them the sooner they go down, but if you are careful, and with new trailers being all LED, you should be good. I supplement with a 3 panel solar set up from Harbor Freight. My Crusader has the exterior plug in setup so easy to hook up, and they will usually keep the batteries up as long as it's a sunny day. I traded off the original 12 volt as soon as I got the trailer home. They usually won't even run one night on the furnace. Good luck on your off the grid adventures.
One more thing is that AGM's need a charger that has the correct charging curve for AGM's. Not sure if your Converter does.

Pretty simple answer really, besides a great lattitude in where you put them (can go anywhere, even under the bed)... With some, there are weight constraints (me) and others have install room issues. Finally, the draw down ins ZERO, not 50% wjich is the typical off gas level for any conventional battery.

Keep in mind that I run Trojan's (not Costo crap). The Trojans are top line GC batteries but weight a lot and location is critical as is mounting position plus the need attention (distilled water). None of that applies to a Lithium Iron battery. They are sealed, no vents at all. Not position critical at all but the best part is voltage delivery across the entire discharge range, the ability to be totally discharged many, many times, no 'memory' and can be conventionally charged with your coach converter or your truck's alternator via the pigtail.

Not for everyone obviously but certainly fills a need at least for me. I can go from 120 pounds worth of specific location batteries to 56 pounds of mount anywhere batteries that need no attention whatsoever for years.

[tamdle]

I do agree with some sharing idea here is not much different in value between AGM and Flooded Lead Acid batteries. The only thing is I would pay too much for the AGM compare to Lead Acid and get nothing more than just the maintenance free battery.

However, if I look beyond the AGM and Lead Acid batteries, I do agree with "SidecarFlip" that the Lithium Iron gave me much more benefit including:

1 - 100% usage of the battery which automatically increases my capacity by double, provided I am using the same size of the battery that I currently have, but like most people, I would not go beyond 80%. Even if I accidentally go beyond the 80% and drain the battery completely, the chance for me to kill the battery is very slim. Unlike the Lead Acid or AGM, I would hurt the battery if I go beyond 50% of its capacity.

2 - The Lithium Iron battery has the capability to take charge fast, I do not have to run the generator very long to charge the batteries if needed.

3 - The weight is very light. Less than 60 lbs for 2 batteries while currently, my 2 house batteries would weight in at about 150 lbs.

4 - The Lithium Iron does not produce gas and may be stored inside the coach under the control temperature which helps the battery performance and it is much better for any type of battery that would subject to the hot or cold environment.

5 - The Lithium Iron battery has 10 times the charging cycles which make the expensive battery much cheaper in the long run.

6 - The Lithium Iron battery does not require any special charging system, therefore, no modification is needed to the RV. If I want the peak performance, I may want to spend some dough to upgrade the charger.

I think I am sold on this idea. Thank SidecarFlip for enlighting me on this new idea.

[Comanchecreek]

Originally Posted by SidecarFlip

Pretty simple answer really, besides a great lattitude in where you put them (can go anywhere, even under the bed)... With some, there are weight constraints (me) and others have install room issues. Finally, the draw down ins ZERO, not 50% wjich is the typical off gas level for any conventional battery.

Keep in mind that I run Trojan's (not Costo crap). The Trojans are top line GC batteries but weight a lot and location is critical as is mounting position plus the need attention (distilled water). None of that applies to a Lithium Iron battery. They are sealed, no vents at all. Not position critical at all but the best part is voltage delivery across the entire discharge range, the ability to be totally discharged many, many times, no 'memory' and can be conventionally charged with your coach converter or your truck's alternator via the pigtail.


Not for everyone obviously but certainly fills a need at least for me. I can go from 120 pounds worth of specific location batteries to 56 pounds of mount anywhere batteries that need no attention whatsoever for years.

The Costco "Crap" as you call them, are Interstates. I suppose you run thousands in batteries, but still run the blow maxes on your axles. Do what you want.

[Herk7769]

Originally Posted by Tom48

Sorry Herk, the auto spell made it Herkimer. That must be the new "The Dog Ate My Homework"

Mine autocorrects to "Jerk" so, no worries. Herkimer is just fine.

[SidecarFlip]

Originally Posted by Comanchecreek

The Costco "Crap" as you call them, are Interstates. I suppose you run thousands in batteries, but still run the blow maxes on your axles. Do what you want.

Without violating forum rules let me say, Number one: Currently, I'm running a pair of Trojan 6 volt Golf Cart Batteries in series (I stated that in a previous post btw) and...

I run Michelin's 10 ply rated Load Range E. Tires and always have.

At 67, I will do 'what I want' and that includes switching to Lithium Iron batteries when my flooded cell Trojans give out.

Let me explain batteries to you...

The battery you buy started it's life with the electrolyte was added. At that point the battery is aging. Consequently, when you buy a 'new' battery, it really isn't new at all because the chemical reaction inside has been going on since the electrolyte was added. Once the process starts, the battery is on it's way to death by sulfation. Thats how it works so...

If you buy a battery, always buy it from a volume dealer (Costo or Walmart) aqny store with a big turnover. Never buy a battery from say NAPA because you have no idea how long it sat on the shelf... Remember it's spending it's life waiting for you to buy it, the longer it sits, the less life it has.

Another give away on how old a battery is, is by looking at how much dust there is on top. If it's dusty, don't buy it. It's old and probably won't last very long. The little removable dots on the top mean nothing except to tell you when you bought it. Not much else.

Conversely, a Lithium Iron battery don't sulfate. No off gassing, it's not even vented, which makes it very easy to mount and no maintenance so unlike a flooded cell or an AGM, you can put it somewhere and forget about it.

Finally, have a nice day...

[camaraderie]

Lithium Iron Batteries are roughly 10x the price of conventional. Yet...on a cost PER CYCLE basis they are cheaper economically and have the many other benefits spoken of.
That said... mostly what I see are avid campers spending 100 days or so on the road a year...so lets call that 100 cycles. So it means you get 10 years out of well cared for good deep cycle batteries of the wet kind that can deliver 1000+ cycles.
Does it matter that you can get 5000 cycles out of LiFePo4's??
In my view...unless you are living aboard full time AND boondocking...the LifePo4 technical advantage does not make true economic sense at 10 times the price of lead/acid.
This is NOT a slam on them... You might be willing to get them based on space or weight or fast charging... but the economic life cycle one is not realistic unless you are cycling every day and not plugging in. How many RV'ers live like that.
Make sense if you do..otherwise not so much IMO.
The other thing I'd note is that all the LiFePo4 info right now is based on projections and lab tests...No one has had a pair installed for 5 years. I like other people to be product testers!

Good to know all the choices though.

[tamdle]

In the RV world, when one decided to buy a certain type of RV, class A, B, C or trailer, it is always critic from others who do not have the same viewpoint. To me, there is not a right or a wrong choice or decision when it comes to buying an RV in general, whatever a person choose to execute his or her decision, it is understood that is the best that he or she would be happy with and comfortable with.

That said, on this particular topic of battery, it is very intriguing to learn from different viewpoints and experiences. Every input does have its good deed behind it, It is a real benefit for myself and many other RV owners who may be in need of their battery replacement. Your opinion is counted whether you are pro or con toward one product or the other. The viewer of this topic who is inexperienced like me would learn a great deal and we are greatly appreciated for all of your inputs. When the time come for the execution, whatever we learned from the discussions here would help the individual to make the “educated” decision that he or she would feel comfortable and be happy with.

Again, thanks for all of your input and debates and hope to learn more about the pro and con of the product.

Having that said, please continue with your thought and your experiences. Everyone will benefit out of these discussions. That is what the forum is all about.

[Comanchecreek]

Originally Posted by camaraderie

Lithium Iron Batteries are roughly 10x the price of conventional. Yet...on a cost PER CYCLE basis they are cheaper economically and have the many other benefits spoken of.
That said... mostly what I see are avid campers spending 100 days or so on the road a year...so lets call that 100 cycles. So it means you get 10 years out of well cared for good deep cycle batteries of the wet kind that can deliver 1000+ cycles.
Does it matter that you can get 5000 cycles out of LiFePo4's??
In my view...unless you are living aboard full time AND boondocking...the LifePo4 technical advantage does not make true economic sense at 10 times the price of lead/acid.
This is NOT a slam on them... You might be willing to get them based on space or weight or fast charging... but the economic life cycle one is not realistic unless you are cycling every day and not plugging in. How many RV'ers live like that.

Make sense if you do..otherwise not so much IMO.
The other thing I'd note is that all the LiFePo4 info right now is based on projections and lab tests...No one has had a pair installed for 5 years. I like other people to be product testers!

Good to know all the choices though.

You say it well, and my point exactly. The idea is good, but not cost effective for the average RVer. I take offense at calling stuff crap that works for others. Tells me someone's got a little ego situation going. That being said this is a forum for discussion, but instead of discussion we seem to want to prove we're somehow smarter than others around. Good luck in your endeavors, and I hope they work for you, just not cost effective yet, would love to discuss it more when it is.

[jeffnick]

Most of us RVr's enjoy a challenge and are curious about technology. Subsequently, high tech batteries are an interest. Probably more decisions on batteries are based on 'satisfaction' rather than economics. Neither is a more noble cause.

[Tom48]

Originally Posted by jeffnick

Most of us RVr's enjoy a challenge and are curious about technology. Subsequently, high tech batteries are an interest. Probably more decisions on batteries are based on 'satisfaction' rather than economics. Neither is a more noble cause.

The difference between men and boys IS STILL THE PRICE OF THEIR TOYS, RIGHT. I'm pretty sure that I still have tech stuff that I will not fully enjoy for years, but I keep looking, dreaming and buying cool stuff.

[FFred]

"What's the advantage of buying double the needed capacity and discharging to 50% over running a single battery way down often and getting it replaced under warranty?"

1.The stores have computers and replacing batts often will get your bucks returned .

2. at the 50% discharge point the volts begin to fall off rapidly and some DC items will cut out.

The simplest way for your WLA (wet lead acid) batts to live long and prosper is to install a SOC (State Of Charge) gauge and live with the reality .

Readout is like a gas tank gauge % of full charge..

If you boondock so much that a superior method of charging is required multiple solar cells , on a wire so they can be in direct sunshine is quiet, and will do the job if enough are used.

The SOC meter will record charges and discharges so you can figure what you will need to install.