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Old 01-30-2024, 06:05 PM   #1
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Here is Why You Must be INSANE to buy an RV These Days

I follow Steve Lehto Esq. on YouTube. He just put out a video on why you have to be insane to buy a (new) RV. The purchase agreements and warranties are disproportionally stacked in favor of the seller and manufacturer.

He references a current court case where the buyer of an RV bought an RV and signed a purchase order which effectively let Camping World off the hook for delivering a defective RV and agreed to move his lawsuit against Thor to Indiana and under Indiana laws.

Indiana, being the capital of the RV industry, probably has laws that are more protective of the RV manufacturer than the laws in the State where the purchaser bought their RV.

If contemplating buying an RV, you should probably watch this video first. When paying big sums of money, It may be a good idea to have an attorney read the legalize and explain it to you in real terms.

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Old 01-30-2024, 11:22 PM   #2
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Meh. After the one year warranty expires it doesn't matter. Also, people do not seem to realize that the dealer is not the entity providing the warranty, the manufacturer is. The dealer likely would just be dismissed from a warranty lawsuit because they're not the one providing the warranty. That language was in ours to clarify that the dealer is not liable for warranty coverage. In 2019.

There was at least one recent successful Revocation of Acceptance action but it was against the manufacturer, not the dealer. The disclaimers Steve showed appeared to be from Camping World, not Thor. That's probably why Thor just requested a change to Indiana.

That customer's second biggest problem (after not understanding what they signed) was that they hired the wrong lawyer. A competent and experienced lawyer would have advised them of all those issues and the proper venue.

Nothing new there at all.

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Old 01-31-2024, 08:21 AM   #3
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It probably is crazy to buy a new RV, and always has been.

I should be ordering my 3rd new RV this week Will no longer be an SOB, at least for awhile.
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Old 01-31-2024, 09:31 AM   #4
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Meh. After the one year warranty expires it doesn't matter. Also, people do not seem to realize that the dealer is not the entity providing the warranty, the manufacturer is. The dealer likely would just be dismissed from a warranty lawsuit because they're not the one providing the warranty. That language was in ours to clarify that the dealer is not liable for warranty coverage. In 2019.

There was at least one recent successful Revocation of Acceptance action but it was against the manufacturer, not the dealer. The disclaimers Steve showed appeared to be from Camping World, not Thor. That's probably why Thor just requested a change to Indiana.

That customer's second biggest problem (after not understanding what they signed) was that they hired the wrong lawyer. A competent and experienced lawyer would have advised them of all those issues and the proper venue.

Nothing new there at all.

Ray
I respectfully disagree on your characterization of Revocation of Acceptance as generally being against the manufacturer. Revocation of Acceptance is against a seller who sells a produce with an Implied Warranty. Implied Warranties can be written or oral and exist under most State Statutes.

The only out for a seller is to make perfectly clear in writing that the sale is As Is. I doubt any legitimate seller of RVs would sell a new RV As Is.

The situation described in the article is to the contrary. Camping World sold a new Thor RV As Is. The buyer, like most of us when buying an car or RV, have a bunch of papers shoved in our faces that we don't thoroughly read and we sign them.

If by chance we do read them and ask about the complex terms, the salesperson (who knows about as much as the buyer) will just say it is legalize and not to worry about it.

My daught4er bought a trailer at a singular dealership that was bought immediately after by Camping World. She had a one year warranty and when she took it back after Camping World bought the dealership they at first refused to make the repairs. After much "discussion" they made the repairs so we didn't get into the fine points of the law.

My guess is that in situations like hers, when a sale of the dealership is made they also, as per State Law, have to assume all the selling corporation's obligations.
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Old 01-31-2024, 10:44 AM   #5
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It may be semantics but the few Revocation of Acceptance cases for RV's I've read have all been against the manufacturer. They generally name the dealer as a party as well and let the courts sort it out.

I've never owed a Thor however FR's warranty is very specific: https://forestriverinc.com/downloads...TER-7-1-23.pdf

Emphasis is added by me. I'm not an attorney but the language is pretty plain to me.

There is no warranty, of any nature, beyond what is contained in this Limited Warranty. No person has authority to enlarge, amend, or modify this Limited Warranty. Repairs will not extend the warranty coverage or period in which you may enforce an action, unless prohibited by law. This RV has been sold to an independent authorized dealer of Forest River. The dealer is NOT an agent of Forest River. Forest River is not bound by any representation or warranty made by the dealer or between the dealer and the retail purchaser. Forest River shall not be held to be a party to any aftermarket and/or third party-service contract or warranty.

The FTC rules are specific and state that all manufacturers must make the warranty available prior to sale. If people choose to not read them prior to signing because they got infatuated that's on them.

Camping World (in the video case) seemed to be acting as a pass-through entity, perhaps because RV dealers are not franchises as new car dealers are. In truth, Camping World offered the vehicle for sale AS IS and the purchaser accepted it AS IS.

I'd think people would flip out more over sections like this:

This Limited Warranty covers the RV against Substantial Defects in material and workmanship attributable to Forest River’s manufacture and assembly of the RV. Substantial Defects are those defects which prevent the RV from performing its intended use for short term recreational camping.

I know that the "substantial defects" section probably is only used when the customer is being a flaming idiot but nevertheless it's right there on the first page of the warranty doc.

Legal wording and disclaimers often are worded the way they are because some law requires it. Steve Lehto even covered that part as well.

Honestly, I was more surprised to learn that some division of Chrysler is making the chassis for a Class B. If you listened closely to that part Mr. Lehto was not certain whether Chrysler made the chassis as well as the drivetrain.

I like his videos as well but really? A person who used to handle RV cases does not know that the chassis and drivetrain are inseparable on a motorhome? Like I said, you gotta do your homework on the attorney as well.

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Old 01-31-2024, 11:47 AM   #6
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The dealer is not responsible for any manufacturer, supplier or third party warranty. Makes sense to me.
I wouldn't expect them to be.
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Old 01-31-2024, 11:55 AM   #7
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Oh my, another "sensational" post on YouTube.
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Old 01-31-2024, 12:27 PM   #8
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The dealer is not responsible for any manufacturer, supplier or third party warranty. Makes sense to me.
I wouldn't expect them to be.
You've been around for a while. New buyers have other expectations!

I did notice that Camping World was the dealer...

By coincidence this video showed up on my YouTube last night. Good watch.

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Old 01-31-2024, 01:51 PM   #9
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Many things you buy come with instructions and warranty info that says DO NOT RETURN TO THE RETAILER. Contact the MFG.

This is no different. A retailer is not responsible for the product they are selling. Its why your FR RV sits at the dealer to get warranty work done while the dealer (aka retailer/reseller) negotiates the coverage of the requested repairs with the MFG.
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Old 01-31-2024, 02:25 PM   #10
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Many things you buy come with instructions and warranty info that says DO NOT RETURN TO THE RETAILER. Contact the MFG.

This is no different. A retailer is not responsible for the product they are selling. Its why your FR RV sits at the dealer to get warranty work done while the dealer (aka retailer/reseller) negotiates the coverage of the requested repairs with the MFG.
^^^^ This.

Even if you buy an 'aftermarket' extended warranty, the dealer isn't responsible for enforcing the warranty. They are a retailer.

If you want to go camping, what are your alternatives? A used rv is hard to find and some of us find camping in a tent impossible. Your best defense is to make certain they make repairs before you sign the final papers.

It's a recreational vehicle and we were prepared to do repairs or pay for repairs ourselves. The memories we've made are priceless.
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Old 01-31-2024, 02:34 PM   #11
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I appreciate you sharing. If nothing else, this helps the buyer understand the nature of all the relationships into which the purchaser is entering.

What we have all seen occasionally in this and other RV forums is that newbies often have little clue about the nature of their purchase. The auto industry is far more tightly regulated,, and that's what many buyers expect. Instead, especially with expensive motorhomes, buyers are shocked to discover that the vehicle/chassis manufacturer is responsible for the truck, and the RV manufacturer is only responsible for modifications made on that truch chassis...and it's frequently the case that those two manufacturers have immense expertise at pointing the finger at the other when purchasers are having problems. Of course, the same is true with travel trailer running gear. The axles and brakes are warranted by one manufacturer, the frame by another, all the appliances and fixturess by others, and so on. A reputable dealer will navigate all that for you, but many don't.

Thanks.
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Old 01-31-2024, 03:47 PM   #12
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The dealer is not responsible for any manufacturer, supplier or third party warranty. Makes sense to me.
I wouldn't expect them to be.
The legal doctrine of Revocation of Acceptance is not a warranty. It is a fair trade legal principle where the buyer can return a product that doesn't function as advertised in a reasonable time frame and get their money back.

The issue here is that Camping World is apparently (at least in the court case mentioned) getting their purchasers of new RVs to sign away their right to enforce the Doctrine of Revocation of Acceptance. In the referenced case, the buyer did not understand that he was signing away his rights under established State law.

Once you buy that RV and sign the papers Camping World has no obligation to you if the RV does not function as advertised. The only recourse you will have is with a manufacturer located in Indiana and if necessary in an Indiana court and Indiana laws.
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Old 02-01-2024, 11:46 AM   #13
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Almost nothing depreciates faster than a new RV. Buying one and making payments means you get pinched twice. What is just as insane to me is staying home all the time or traveling by motels.

I still like camping in the traditinal sense, with tents, in the open or in the back of the truck. Having a used RV is the sweet spot. Great for the shoulder seasons and extending the camping season by a lot.
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Old 02-01-2024, 01:34 PM   #14
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Almost nothing depreciates faster than a new RV. Buying one and making payments means you get pinched twice. What is just as insane to me is staying home all the time or traveling by motels.

I still like camping in the traditinal sense, with tents, in the open or in the back of the truck. Having a used RV is the sweet spot. Great for the shoulder seasons and extending the camping season by a lot.
It depends. I bought my motorhome just before COVID. After that, it’s price shot up $30-35K. Used units were then selling for more than what I paid new. I might even still be able to sell my RV for what I paid for it, over 4 years later.

I agree tent camping is still great. I probably tent camped 20 nights last year. I may have been “forced” by family to spend two nights in a hotel, not by choice.
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Old 02-01-2024, 11:03 PM   #15
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It depends. I bought my motorhome just before COVID. After that, it’s price shot up $30-35K. Used units were then selling for more than what I paid new. I might even still be able to sell my RV for what I paid for it, over 4 years later.
Same here, bought in mid-2019. I just ran into someone who bought our exact model year and exact model and paid $5,000 less than we did new. The asking price was $5,000 more than we paid. They thought they got a great deal because they compared it to the current model year prices.

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Old 02-02-2024, 12:21 PM   #16
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Some people are good at timing and paying attention to price trends. Most people aren't. They get seduced at the RV show under the bright lights. "You won't even know its back there." says the salesman. I don't get towing a trailer over 30 feet. In a free country get to do what they want.
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Old 02-02-2024, 12:49 PM   #17
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Caveat Emptor


... otherwise


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Old 02-02-2024, 02:25 PM   #18
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As with any warranty or guaranty:
The BOLD print givith and the fine print taketh away!
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Old 02-04-2024, 06:53 PM   #19
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So what's the warranty going to be on this one?

https://acfuture.com/
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Old 02-04-2024, 07:56 PM   #20
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So what's the warranty going to be on this one?
https://acfuture.com/
I really like that RV. As long as it’s not built in Elkhart, Indiana, there is hope.
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