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Old 04-28-2012, 09:25 PM   #1
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How can one dealer sell for so much cheaper?

We have a local Forest River dealer in our town and he was selling the 207 tent trailer for $8,999 (2011- brand new)

We found the same trailer, new, 2011 in a nearby province for $7000.

Do I need to worry about anything, or has one just not dropped his price yet?
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Old 04-28-2012, 10:17 PM   #2
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Old 04-28-2012, 10:29 PM   #3
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That makes sense to me. My husband is more hesitant, but I think his real anxiety is driving 6hrs to purchase it without seeing the actual trailer we want. We have seen the model at a local dealership, but they just sold their last one.
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Old 04-28-2012, 10:56 PM   #4
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Could it be a "Price Leader"? A very low price to draw people in and hopefully upgrade to a higher price unit.
My TT was a price leader but I didn't upgrade.
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Old 04-29-2012, 03:20 AM   #5
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"Price Leader" is a new euphemism for "Bait and Switch," a sales tactic that is frowned upon. (and may even be illegal in some areas)

Having said that, I have learned that the RV industry (taken as a whole) has the highest markups and most secretive "invoice" pricing of any on the road industry. (speaking primarily of autos here)

While you can easily find the "invoice" price of any car you care to buy, trying to find the same information on your camper is darn near impossible. Even finding a "real" MSRP is a chore since no dealer will tell you what it is; just what they will sell you the unit for.

This puts them in the negotiation drivers seat because it forces you to:

1) Not shop around - You have no idea where their offer is in relation to the highest price paid (or the lowest price paid) for the same item in other areas.

2) Forces you to try and work DOWN from their selling price. The dealer can then knock off thousands from the "sticker" and still make thousands on the sale.

3) If you go to a site that does the "invoice" pricing of cars, you will quickly find that the markup runs about 25 - 30% "invoice to MSRP" depending on whether it is an import or domestic.

4) RV markups are 35 - 40% at the dealer (according to an online article I read when I was shopping for my Flagstaff - I will try to find that link again if anyone asks). That leaves a LOT of room for negotiating.

When I was shopping for the Flagstaff; RV Wholesalers used to post their prices right on line and you could write down the increase in total cost as you added options to the camper. About a year after we bought our camper I pointed a member to the same site and got a shock when I found out that they had stopped the practice. Most likely complaints from the retail dealers.

So, to get the best bang for the buck on a new camper IMO

1) NEVER buy off the lot if you can help it. You are in the dealer's playground then. He has leverage because he is offering instant gratification as well as a camper. You are at a grave disadvantage.

2) Write down exactly what you want including all options. Use whatever online sites are available to find out what they are. Some options MUST come from the factory (like ladders and bedroom TVs), so you better make sure you get it ordered that way.

3) Get a price for that camper from both online discounters. They will only quote by email now and only on your "spec'ed out" submission. Know up front that they will only give you that price if you pay cash or finance through them.

4) You can take that number as a starting point for negotiating with your local dealer and "work UP" to a negotiated price on a special order or you can take the "sticker" price off one on the lot, subtract 30% and start negotiating UP from there. Make sure you already have financing arranged with your bank or credit union and they know you are serious about buying today.

Remember they have NEVER thrown a customer out the door (unless you threaten them and then they will call the cops). No matter how "ridiculous" your offer is, they will go "run this by the boss" and get a cup of coffee. If the wait is too long, leave and come back the next day and bump your offer 100 bucks.

Call other dealers in whatever driving distance is worth driving to save a few thousand on a camper. Tell them you have a quote from your local guy in the price range you want and see if they can beat it (or match it). Armed with a realistic quote from a competing dealer, you can really turn the heat up on your local guy. Tell him you want to give him the business cause he is so close; but he has to make it worth while for you to do so.

I use this all the time with cars and trucks have closed deals at or BELOW invoice ever since I learned how to do it. You can close below dealer invoice if there is a "rebate" available. The rebate should NEVER be part of your "discount" (although the dealer would very much like it to be).

Good luck and work the best deal you can; then be happy you did the best you could under the circumstances.

Play with your deck and always cut the cards.
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Old 04-29-2012, 07:05 AM   #6
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Ahhh, thank you for this! I am going to give them a call on Monday and see what they say. I was scared to negotiate since we have to see this guy around town and may need him for servicing. It's definitely worth a try to bring him down to where there are in the same playing field.

If I buy the one out of province, with the cheaper guy, can I still have it serviced locally for warranty work? I'm assuming so?
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Old 04-29-2012, 07:25 AM   #7
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If I buy the one out of province, with the cheaper guy, can I still have it serviced locally for warranty work? I'm assuming so?
Not sure about Canada, but it is a strong "Maybe" here.

Unlike cars, there is no obligation to service an RV at a dealership. Most RV dealership will service a camper they sold; non-local area campers from other dealerships; and local area RVs not bought there. IN THAT ORDER.

That is why it is better to pay "AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE" more to buy locally; than from a dealer further away. If it is a LOT more, I would make the drive if it needs service.

You will find from reading posts here, that you can fix darn near anything on your camper with a little skull work and can use a screwdriver without drawing blood (too often).

Most parts are VERY common on all campers and RVs. The Internet is your friend. There are "How To" videos on YouTube and wholesale sources for parts. Major repairs (like delamination's) are most likely going back to Indiana anyway.
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Old 04-29-2012, 08:36 AM   #8
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"Price Leader" is a new euphemism for "Bait and Switch," a sales tactic that is frowned upon. (and may even be illegal in some areas)

Having said that, I have learned that the RV industry (taken as a whole) has the highest markups and most secretive "invoice" pricing of any on the road industry. (speaking primarily of autos here)

While you can easily find the "invoice" price of any car you care to buy, trying to find the same information on your camper is darn near impossible. Even finding a "real" MSRP is a chore since no dealer will tell you what it is; just what they will sell you the unit for.

This puts them in the negotiation drivers seat because it forces you to:

1) Not shop around - You have no idea where their offer is in relation to the highest price paid (or the lowest price paid) for the same item in other areas.

2) Forces you to try and work DOWN from their selling price. The dealer can then knock off thousands from the "sticker" and still make thousands on the sale.

3) If you go to a site that does the "invoice" pricing of cars, you will quickly find that the markup runs about 25 - 30% "invoice to MSRP" depending on whether it is an import or domestic.

4) RV markups are 35 - 40% at the dealer (according to an online article I read when I was shopping for my Flagstaff - I will try to find that link again if anyone asks). That leaves a LOT of room for negotiating.

When I was shopping for the Flagstaff; RV Wholesalers used to post their prices right on line and you could write down the increase in total cost as you added options to the camper. About a year after we bought our camper I pointed a member to the same site and got a shock when I found out that they had stopped the practice. Most likely complaints from the retail dealers.

So, to get the best bang for the buck on a new camper IMO

1) NEVER buy off the lot if you can help it. You are in the dealer's playground then. He has leverage because he is offering instant gratification as well as a camper. You are at a grave disadvantage.

2) Write down exactly what you want including all options. Use whatever online sites are available to find out what they are. Some options MUST come from the factory (like ladders and bedroom TVs), so you better make sure you get it ordered that way.

3) Get a price for that camper from both online discounters. They will only quote by email now and only on your "spec'ed out" submission. Know up front that they will only give you that price if you pay cash or finance through them.

4) You can take that number as a starting point for negotiating with your local dealer and "work UP" to a negotiated price on a special order or you can take the "sticker" price off one on the lot, subtract 30% and start negotiating UP from there. Make sure you already have financing arranged with your bank or credit union and they know you are serious about buying today.

Remember they have NEVER thrown a customer out the door (unless you threaten them and then they will call the cops). No matter how "ridiculous" your offer is, they will go "run this by the boss" and get a cup of coffee. If the wait is too long, leave and come back the next day and bump your offer 100 bucks.

Call other dealers in whatever driving distance is worth driving to save a few thousand on a camper. Tell them you have a quote from your local guy in the price range you want and see if they can beat it (or match it). Armed with a realistic quote from a competing dealer, you can really turn the heat up on your local guy. Tell him you want to give him the business cause he is so close; but he has to make it worth while for you to do so.

I use this all the time with cars and trucks have closed deals at or BELOW invoice ever since I learned how to do it. You can close below dealer invoice if there is a "rebate" available. The rebate should NEVER be part of your "discount" (although the dealer would very much like it to be).

Good luck and work the best deal you can; then be happy you did the best you could under the circumstances.

Play with your deck and always cut the cards.

Very good advice Lou that I follow as well when purchasing vehiches and campers. I have purchased over 30 new vehicles and half dozen campers and have only once felt like the dealer got one on me. The problem that I encounter more and more is that there are more buyers that are less aware , despite the abundance of info out there, and usually pay more for a vehicle than they should. These buyers make it difficult for the more informed shopper who is armed with more information. In other words, if I won't pay the sticker price, then the next guy in the door will. That is why I shop around to different dealers, never show loyality to one, and have travelled across 4 provinces to save $6k on a camper purchase 2 years ago. Retailed for 22,900 here in my province and 16,900 in another. The travel time became our vacation, so I didn't have to factor in travel costs. Service was not an issue as I traded the camper on my return , because I hate hybrids (another story).
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Old 04-29-2012, 10:05 AM   #9
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Herk is giving you very good advice. I use the exact same way of shopping. I started shopping last September for a Rockwood 8280 diamond close to home and got 2 quotes.
Then I emailed RVW and RVD for the exact same FW with the exact same options. I couldn't believe the difference.When i mentioned this to the local dealer he said if i needed service he is not obligated to serve me. After checking this information he was right, the law is made that way.He could only give me 50% off the hitch ($400). So I ordered one from the USA (RVW) and saved exactly $11467 and this includes all the taxes, inspection and transportation to he border.I repair everything myself unless it needs a certified repair man like the fridge or something like that. So IMHO it is well worth shopping around.
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Old 04-29-2012, 10:05 AM   #10
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There's a large dealer in Amarillo that says... "We'll beat any deal, anywhere!" However, they wouldn't negotiate with me. I shopped them and beat their deal by $4,000- in Denver. They came off their price $800- and said, "Take it or leave it... and good luck getting service if you don't but it here..." We left it. We actually started over looking and found something we liked better... and beat both deals. I wonder sometimes about the markups and MSRP. Pretty sure they are very large as stated above. Our dealer said our model had an MSRP of over $33K - but we got it for $23,500- with some add ons. Same trailer in Amarillo was shopped for $27,500- and that dealer (different from the first) wouldn't budge, either. Went 105 miles to Clovis, NM and the dealer was sooo much different... and reasonable... go figure...
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Old 04-29-2012, 11:05 AM   #11
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Herk is giving you very good advice. I use the exact same way of shopping. I started shopping last September for a Rockwood 8280 diamond close to home and got 2 quotes.
Then I emailed RVW and RVD for the exact same FW with the exact same options. I couldn't believe the difference.When i mentioned this to the local dealer he said if i needed service he is not obligated to serve me. After checking this information he was right, the law is made that way.He could only give me 50% off the hitch ($400). So I ordered one from the USA (RVW) and saved exactly $11467 and this includes all the taxes, inspection and transportation to he border.I repair everything myself unless it needs a certified repair man like the fridge or something like that. So IMHO it is well worth shopping around.
Here is something i found out..My Cougar High Country RKS 299. Made by Keystone.. Can be taken to Any dealer that sells Keystone RVS.. While still under Factory Warranty. I went 250 miles for mine. and now have mine at a dealer 25 miles from home ..no problem..that dealer just didnt have the model of 5th wheel that we wanted !! And.. i used to own a forest river puma at one time (bought it used )
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Old 04-29-2012, 11:22 AM   #12
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Having sold cars, motorcycles, boats and other motorized vehicles over the decades I agree, and disagree, with many things you say:

Quote:
Originally Posted by herk7769 View Post
This puts them in the negotiation drivers seat because it forces you to:

1) Not shop around - You have no idea where their offer is in relation to the highest price paid (or the lowest price paid) for the same item in other areas.
??? You can ALWAYS shop around. The challenge I found with RVs is soooo many brands and models there is no feasible way to compare apples to apples. The floorplan of our trailer (which I've seen in person more than once) isn't listed anyplace - no brochure, not on FR site, no place.

3) If you go to a site that does the "invoice" pricing of cars, you will quickly find that the markup runs about 25 - 30% "invoice to MSRP" depending on whether it is an import or domestic.
Imports are marked up 10-15% and domestics 15-20%, unless something's changed in the past 10 years (when the trend has been to lower margins, not higher). Manufactuers markup very differently of course - it doesn't cost them 4 times as much to make a silverado as it does a cruze yet they can sell it for that much more. Often GM (as well as others) lose money per unit on the lower end of their product line but make it up on the trucks and SUVs.

4) RV markups are 35 - 40% at the dealer (according to an online article I read when I was shopping for my Flagstaff - I will try to find that link again if anyone asks). That leaves a LOT of room for negotiating.
This is also what I've heard. Whether you can get the price down that much depends, as usualy, on many factors. Many of which you don't control.

So, to get the best bang for the buck on a new camper IMO

1) NEVER buy off the lot if you can help it. You are in the dealer's playground then. He has leverage because he is offering instant gratification as well as a camper. You are at a grave disadvantage.

Absolutely false. Always has been. Every unit (car, trailer, whatever) sitting on the dealer lot is costing him money to be there. It's called 'flooring' - its a loan (usually from the manufacturer) that the dealer pays monthly interest on. The longer a unit sits there the more money the dealer has tied up in the interest. Usually the rate is pretty low for 90 days then jumps up - the manufacturer wants (needs) to move units as they manufacture them so they don't want dealers sitting on units. There are often specials (seasonal, or to move slow selling units or options) as well.

When a dealer orders a unit for you it costs him nothing. He also has to wait to get paid until the unit is delivered. So he has every incentive in the world to get the trailers on his lot sold.


3) Get a price for that camper from both online discounters. They will only quote by email now and only on your "spec'ed out" submission. Know up front that they will only give you that price if you pay cash or finance through them.
Not sure how much value this has when negotiating. The local salesperson will beat you up for doing it - 'well, you have to spend $300 in gas, 2 days driving, are you gonna get what you think you're getting, etc.' Then they'll tell you horror stories (like i've read here) about getting there and it's not ready, right, leaking water...so you have to make another trip, etc. Local dealers will tell you how they'll stand behind your unit because they want WOM sales and referrals - the far off rv masstailer could care less.
Are you serious about buying from that masstailer or not? If not then your ploy is just that. And a good salesman will smell it a mile away.

4) Make sure you already have financing arranged with your bank or credit union and they know you are serious about buying today.

Dealers many money on financing. You can get a lower price if you finance through them (or promise to). They often have access to cheaper financing than you can find on your own. Financing is almost a whole separate purchase. But if you go in with 'cash in hand' don't expect a better deal. You just told them they're not going to make $400-600 on the financing so they'll try to make that back up in other ways (they DO have to make money on what they sell)
You are in a stronger position if you have good credit, but that applies no matter what you buy.

Call other dealers in whatever driving distance is worth driving to save a few thousand on a camper. Tell them you have a quote from your local guy in the price range you want and see if they can beat it (or match it). Armed with a realistic quote from a competing dealer, you can really turn the heat up on your local guy. Tell him you want to give him the business cause he is so close; but he has to make it worth while for you to do so.

This is true. This is the best leverage you can have - for campers or cars. Do not get emotionally attached to the unit you're looking at (this is why car dealers often insist on a test drive, pull 'your car' out of the line of 100 others on the lot, have you park it outside the window by the desk you'll sit at to negotiate, etc).
It shows you are a serious buyer and not a tire kicker or dreamer. (in theory this is what having your financing prearranged is supposed to do for you but it doesn't really do that- dealers are not worried about getting you financed)


I use this all the time with cars and trucks have closed deals at or BELOW invoice ever since I learned how to do it. You can close below dealer invoice if there is a "rebate" available. The rebate should NEVER be part of your "discount" (although the dealer would very much like it to be).

Rebate or not there is often 'money' below the invoice. Dealers get ad money, often incentives you don't know about to move slow selling models, old models, etc.
Just about any car dealer will sell a car at invoice plus $300 all day long, and the rebate is on top of that.
Where you 'lose' is when you go in with a payment in mind and pay no attention to the other numbers. I've seen all sorts of 'wizardry' done that will get you your payment and you've no idea what you really spend on that car. Many dealers will inflate the payment to include most if not all of an extended warranty and other goodies too. If you don't buy them the payment doesn't come down - so if you're shrewd you can get those items cheaper or free, or get the payment lower. But it's still best to negotiate the purchase separate from the financing.
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Old 04-29-2012, 11:26 AM   #13
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Here is something i found out..My Cougar High Country RKS 299. Made by Keystone.. Can be taken to Any dealer that sells Keystone RVS.. While still under Factory Warranty. I went 250 miles for mine. and now have mine at a dealer 25 miles from home ..no problem..that dealer just didnt have the model of 5th wheel that we wanted !! And.. i used to own a forest river puma at one time (bought it used )
Having worked 15+ years at dealers (car, motorcycle, boat, etc) I can GUARANTEE you that if two units come in for warranty repair the guy that bought from the local dealer will get fixed first and your 'out of town' purchase will wait.

Why? Of course the dealer is gong to give preferential treatment to HIS customers!

Don't you remember - he told you that in the sales pitch that you thought was all BS, huh?

When parts get scarce HIS customers will get it while you wait for it on backorder. Sorry.

Is this important to you? Like insurance, not till you need it does it matter how good the service is.
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Old 04-29-2012, 12:28 PM   #14
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I can accept the fact that the local dealer looks after their clients before servicing others but we still are a source of income for them even if they do work under warrantee. If I had a major issue under warrantee I would bring it in at the end of the camping season.
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Old 04-29-2012, 01:40 PM   #15
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Qoute from pro fate

I'm in agreement with pro fate "cash in hand" statement based on my experience buying my TT.

Full cash purchase = loss income from financing for dealership.
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Old 04-29-2012, 01:49 PM   #16
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A dealer charges perhaps $80/hour for labor.
Unless it's warranty work..then the manufacturer says how long a job will take and that they'll pay $53/hour - and not in cash, but usually in dealer credit (to their account).

So paying work often takes precedence over warranty work.

How big a difference is this sometimes? Huge. Mechanics are paid flat rate in most places - $15/hour based not on clock on the wall hours but on how long the book says the job takes.

So a brake job on a car may be 1.5 hours and he knows he can do it in under 1 hour. Vs warrant work that often pays .7 for that same brake job. Do 8 in a day and at the end of there day there is a big big difference in your paycheck.
And warranty diagnostic work (leak?)often pay the least.

Few mechanics like warranty work.
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Old 04-29-2012, 05:05 PM   #17
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Chris, I think the "Not shop around" was taken out of context. What I meant was that when you are negotiating for one "on the lot" you pretty mush sacrifice your ability to shop around because that identical unit may not exist anywhere to get a competing quote on.

Also your input on car markups is well taken and may be more current than my experience and I agree margins have been squeezed in recent years. I have to say that I have been getting quotes on a new car for my wife using the USAA buyer's service and they give you 3 quotes from area dealers on the car you design of their web site and the quotes have been coming in anywhere from 300 to 1000 under invoice.

As to never "buy off the lot," I know your point as to them paying interest on the car loan; and they may very well be motivated to sell it. IMHO though, I believe that because they already have a sunk cost that they need to recover in that interest; they will be reluctant to deal as close to the money line as they would on a special order that has no loan on it. The longer an item sits on the lot, my experience has been the less likely they are to cut a deal where they might lose money.

I totally agree that financing, sales price, Trade in value, and extended warranty are four DIFFERENT deals, not one. All four variables have pluses and minuses and effect how good a deal you get on your over all transaction. Getting a killer price on the truck and getting raped on the trade in or financing can turn a "good deal" into a soaking.

"Do not get emotionally attached to the unit you're looking at (this is why car dealers often insist on a test drive, pull 'your car' out of the line of 100 others on the lot, have you park it outside the window by the desk you'll sit at to negotiate, etc)."

Makes my point of all of this. Buying a unit on the lot puts you at a grave disadvantage. Salesman know that "take it home for the weekend and take an extended test drive," will force you to make an emotional investment in closing the sale. It is far easier IMO to dicker on a spec sheet than tin in the lot.

Lots of other things go into the mix as well. If you have bought several vehicles from the same dealer over the years, and say that you REALLY would like to buy another GMC from them, but ... the dealer two towns over has the exact same unit in a Chevy brand that he will let go at invoice. How about working with me here...." can close an otherwise reluctant salesman. My last truck, I had to change salesman to write up the deal. The floor guy I started talking to needed the commission and I got handed off to the truck manager to close the deal.
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Old 04-29-2012, 09:05 PM   #18
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Camper price

I paid $14,000 less than my first price quote on my Sandpiper from the same dealer. After he knew I was pre approved and very serious about buying. I simply walked in with build sheet from RV wholesalers and told him I was either buying one from him that day or I was heading to Ohio the next day. Luckily he despises the "big wholesalers" so it worked out for me.
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Old 04-29-2012, 09:11 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by carsonizik3 View Post
I paid $14,000 less than my first price quote on my Sandpiper from the same dealer. After he knew I was pre approved and very serious about buying. I simply walked in with build sheet from RV wholesalers and told him I was either buying one from him that day or I was heading to Ohio the next day. Luckily he despises the "big wholesalers" so it worked out for me.
While I am sure he did not make as much money on the sale as he had hoped (14,000 bucks less), I am sure he still made money or he would not have sold it to you.
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Old 04-30-2012, 07:39 AM   #20
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As they say in the car biz - 20% of buyers will pay full retail. Are you one of those 20%? Only way to find out is to quote you full retail and see if you buy.

Also, many studies have been done that show the more you pay the happier a buyer you are...sounds odd, I know, but those in search of the lowest possible price always feel they paid too much and dealers that 'specialize' in tight deals rarely have the money to offer any goodies/incentives/special treatment/thankyous, etc. Service (as in how you're treated) is almost always tied directly to price.

Quote:
Originally Posted by herk7769 View Post
While I am sure he did not make as much money on the sale as he had hoped (14,000 bucks less), I am sure he still made money or he would not have sold it to you.
Reminds of those folks selling stuff on pawn stars - " i won't accept less than $1000 " and then they take $500 and say "I got what I wanted" - of course, orelse you'd not have sold it.
Human nature...a funny beast.

As to units on the lot - the manufacturers sell to the dealers who then sell to you. I assum the RV industry is like cars/bikes - certain times of the year there are incentives. For bikes there is 'free flooring for 90 days' for bikes ordered for spring delivery (and quads for the fall). Car dealers often getting better pricing on 'last years' models and other incentives. Some pass these along, some do not. Many times there are incentives for financing X% of units or moving X units (sell 40 cars and get a $5000 credit from GM for example).
Some dealers pass these along, some do not. Some it depends...if today say, the last day of the month the need to move one more car to get that $5000 bonus you can get one heck of a deal if you're buying that car- hence all the advice to shop at the end of the month.
Also, salesman, managers and finance folk are all paid commission - it's in their best self interest to get as much as possible price wise, sell the units on the floor now, hit some sales quote (in unit count usually).
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