Tim's Guide to buying anything.

[Cowracer]

This is a long post, but it contains some knowledge that is going to save you some serious money. Grab a cup of coffee...

Disclaimer. I am not claiming to be all-knowing when it comes to sales, but I have a few tricks that work just about every time. My crowning achievement was that I did negotiate (and got a hell of a deal) with a Saturn dealer once.

I've seen a few posts here in the last couple of months dealing with purchasing a camper that make me think, "those poor, un-informed souls". With just a little bit of knowledge, you can avoid the traps that dealers set for you. This may seem like a lot of effort (its not), but ask yourself, isn't it worth it for saving thousands of dollars?

Dealerships have an number of tactics that have one purpose, and one purpose only. Namely, to get you to buy a camper for as much money as they can pry out of you. Attractive displays, glossy brochures, promises of low payments, slick talk about numbers and terms, and in some cases, misdirection, deception and outright lies. Your salesman is most likely an expert in psychology, if he wasn't he wouldn't be a salesman very long. He knows how to read you and how to push your mental buttons. He can come off as your best friend, doing you a hell of a favor for allowing you to buy his beautiful new camper. He'll have you thinking you'd be stupid to pass up on the deal, and worst of all, he'll have you thinking that was all your idea. He'll dazzle you, he will baffle you, he will do everything in his power to keep you from thinking for more than a minute. In short, when you walk into a dealership, you are walking into a very well organized operation with a large variety of weapons all pointed at your wallet. The cards are already stacked against you.

But you have a weapon of your own. A single weapon. But it's a thermonuclear bomb. It trumps all of his other schemes and tactics. And it’s nothing more than the fact that you and your money can walk out his door, and there isn't a damned thing he can do to stop you. Want to see a grown man break out into a panic? Tell your salesman, "I want to sleep on it, I'll call you back tomorrow". He know that in an hour or so, all the psychological magic he was working on you will evaporate, and you will return to rational thinking. He also knows that the odds of you actually calling back are somewhere between 'slim' and 'none'. Understanding this, I'll give you some things that I do every single time I go horse-trading.
　
First off, lets cover Rule #1: DO NOT BE IN A HURRY. This is a process, not an event. It might take a few days to a week to get exactly what you what for exactly what you are willing to pay.
　
Ok, so before even going to the dealership, we need to do some homework.

1. Know what you want. Research the floorplans, options, features and colors. Make a list of what you must have, would like to have, what you can live without, and what you absolutely do not want. You should be able to order your unit over the phone if you have done it right.

2. Know what you are willing to pay. I don't necessarily mean only call all the dealers and find out what their 'over-the-phone" price is (but do that for sure anyway), but balance distance, service ability, region and other factors into your price. Places on the west coast by default will charge more than in the Midwest. Determine your target price (the most you are willing to pay) and a secret 'drop-dead' limit. This is not a "budget". The target price should be custom tailored to a particular specific unit. If you shop with just a general budget of say $30k, you will get a $26k trailer for $30K. But, keep a little flexibility in case something really special is available. You might get a $1500 option that you would love to have that might put you a couple hundred over the limit. Have a little wiggle room just in case, but only if it make economic sense. .

3. Never, ever tell the salesman what your highest price you are willing to pay is. He's not going to tell you what his bottom dollar is, so why tell him your top dollar?

4. Establish your credit if needed. Get a pre-approval from your bank or other institution (I find that credit unions offer FAR better rates, by the way). The credit process is where dealers can start playing fast and loose with your money. But don't necessarily avoid dealer financing. My last two big purchases, the dealers offered some pretty sweet rates.

So, you've done all that, and you are ready to go see a dealer. For me, that's where the fun starts. Some people don't feel comfortable haggling, they don't like the confrontational aspect, but I relish it. You should look at it from the point that you can save quite a lot of money by being a bit of a jerk. You are not there to make friends. You shouldn’t care if the salesman thinks you are the biggest a-hole ever to come down the mountain. You should only worry about forking over as little of your money as possible for their product. Be standoffish. Interrupt him, be critical. Hell, even complain about stuff. Making him a tiny bit uncomfortable is in your best interest. But above all else, remember this:

1. Never forget who your opponent is. Keep in the back of your mind that the salesman is only smiling in your face to distract you from the hand in your pocket. I try to picture every salesman as someone who would be willing to drive their car over the corpse of their own mother to make a sale. It helps to dehumanize them a little. I rarely use their name in conversation. They will use yours quite a bit. They are taught it breeds familiarity and establishes goodwill and rapport. You don't want a new friend, you want a camper at the lowest possible price.

2. Never show enthusiasm. Be neutral to critical when looking at units if the salesman accompanies you. If you or your spouse ever walk into a unit in his presence and gush "Oh my God, I love it" you have just tacked on 3 to 5% to what you are going to have to pay.

3. In the same vein; NEVER, EVER, EVER fall in love with a unit. Always be prepared to walk away. This is both the most important thing I can teach you, and the hardest thing to do. There will be another. Trust me. (I personally will make an exception to this rule if I ever find myself in a position to buy a '63 Corvette split-window coupe)

4. Take notes. Buy a cheap notebook. Write down some things from your 'homework' on first few pages, and start your notes on like page 5 or so. Let the salesman see you take notes. Do not show him your notes. Insist on getting a copy of anything he writes down. Again, it’s a psychological thing. Some salesmen will rattle off (and scribble down) large amounts of bullcrap that sounds good, and when you sit down with the finance guy, figures will have changed. This puts him on edge knowing that everything he says and writes can come back to bite him in the ass.

At some point, you are going to wind up back at his desk and that's when it will get interesting.

1. Establish early on that you will only talk in terms of "Out the door" pricing. During negotiations, anytime he mentions a number, ask him "that is the 'out-the-door' price, right"? Don't allow them to tack on a single extra dollar for PDI, shipping, document fee, full propane tanks, battery, or the other crap they try to get you with. If he say "no, that’s not including..." stop him right there and tell him to add it all up and then give you the out-the-door number.

2. He will show you MSRP. He will show you his List Price. He will show you a discount price. He might even show you invoice price. None of this matters even the tiniest bit. Will you think a Big Mac is a good deal at $35 if I told you it MSRP'ed out at $165? Not even for a minute. When he is done talking, wait about 7 seconds (that wait will slightly unnerve him), then look him in the eye and ask, "so what's your bottom dollar price". When he does, laugh, scoff, chortle or huff at it. Anything to make him think that you cannot believe that he expects someone to be so stupid as to pay that price. Tell him "Ummm, no. You are way high". Tell him you talked to other dealers on the exact same unit and their prices were all below that, but don't tell him a number. If he insists, just look at him with your #1 gaze stern gaze and just say "lower than that". Thumb back to a previous page in your notebook, like you are reviewing another dealers price, but again, don't let him look at your notes. He will eventually ask you what you had in mind and you should come back with a number that is low enough for him to reject, but not so low as to be insulting. Don’t lowball at $19,000 for a $50,000 unit. You want him to know you are a serious consumer that has done their research, not someone just wasting his time. Come in somewhere under your target price, but know that he won't agree to it. (Except for one time when I was buying a car, and he agreed to my first offer. Took all the fun outta it...). Now that we've established the preliminaries, he will make you his first 'real' offer.

3. Turn it down. Always turn down the first offer. There will ALWAYS be a second offer. Most of the time, I turn down the second, too. He may have to leave to consult the "manager". The manager might even come back and talk to you directly. It’s all theater, just sit back and enjoy it. Don't forget to keep writing down things in your notebook.

4. Unless you are extremely fortunate, or extremely gullible, at some point you will reach an impasse where you are several thousand dollars apart. That's the point where you should leave. Thank him for his time. Tell him you are sorry you couldn’t work a deal and shake his hand. Make him feel that this is the last time he will ever hear from you. Don't look back, don't imply that you'll think about it. Make sure he knows that you have reached your end.

5. From that, one of two things will happen. What happens 90% of the time is, you will get a call from the salesman or manager in a day or two. He will come back with an offer. If he is at or below your target price, congratulations on your new camper. But... Still say "I don’t know..." and tell him take a thousand off and you have a deal. That is a thousand dollars just for asking. The worst is he says no. He can’t kill your dog, or cancel Christmas. And he sure as hell won't tell you "never mind the deal is off". I've personally have had this work more than once. If his phone offer is still above your target, thank him and tell him you’re not interested at that price.

6. The other thing that can happen is you never hear from them again. If you don't or his phone offer is still above your target, at least you have valuable info on pricing. And a good amount of stuff for you notebook. That always looks good at the next dealer.

By now, you either have a deal at your target price or you don't. If not, shop other dealers. You might have to drive a bit. It's worth it if for no other reason as to get competitive data (and to practice your negotiating skills). If you have visited 3-4 dealers and nobody meets your target, there is a good chance your target price was unrealistic. It happens. But now you have a few dealers numbers. Maybe not their best numbers, but still something to go off of. Rethink your target, and call your closest (or preferred dealer) after about a week. Tell him you have an offer a thousand or so below the best price you have gotten so far, from a competitor. Tell him you would really prefer to give his business to him. If he could meet that price, you will come in that weekend to sign the papers. Again, a thousand or so bucks, just for asking for it. If he don't bite. Call one of the other dealer and give him the same story. If after all that, you still don't have a deal, you can rest assured that you have determined what the best price the market in your area will bear. You can call the dealer with the lowest price at that point and make a deal with him. In 30 years of horse-trading for cars, motorcycles, ATV's boats and campers, I have only had that happen one time.

So now, you have a deal and you are going to go sign the papers. Again, make sure the price quoted is 100% out-the-door. Don't accept a single penny more. The dealer is already counting you as a sale, and he won't let you go for an $80 "documentation fee". If at any time the finance guy comes back with some crap like "the bank called and they need an extra X thousand as a down payment". Walk the hell out of the door without a word and never go back. That is an illegal and immoral trick that some unscrupulous dealers use. They will ask for more down payment, but it will not be reflected on the balance financed. Basically, you are giving them free money. You do NOT want to deal with a place that does that.

By now, you can drop the 'slightly jerkish' routine. It has done what it needed to do. Now they are your best friends. It's time to try to get some free stuff. Tell him, "I'm dropping X thousands on a camper with you guys and I can't even get a T-shirt?" I've gotten some really nice stuff that way. But also expect them to try to offer to sell you 'add-ons' at this point. Useless crap like Fabric Stain Protector, or Lifetime Hitchball Lubrication. Politely decline. They may insist. Again, politely decline. Those are almost always scams that dealers use to plump up the deals. You should also already know if you are interested in an extended warranty. It will sure as hell be offered. I won't go in to the pluses and minuses of an extended warranty, but sitting at the finance guys desk with a pen in your hand is not the time to decide.

The dealership should have already run your credit. Don't worry if they shop it around to different places, it will not negatively impact your credit score. Whatever he offers, ask for a few minutes alone to discuss with your spouse, or to mull it over if you don’t have one. Like I have said before, the dealer may surprise you with a finance package better than you have gotten from your bank. Don't be afraid to use it if makes sense.

Again, write down anything significant the finance guy says. Ask for copies of everything. You will probably have to sign about 10-15 documents. MAKE SURE TO READ EVERYTHING. This is the point where you should slow down and for some reason, this is where everyone speeds up. The end is in sight, and most people just want to rush and get it over with. Question anything you don't understand. Very important! Walk out to the unit and verify the VIN on the camper with the one on the paperwork. Mistakes happen sometimes, and it will never be easier to correct than right then and there. I won't go into how to do a good PDI, there are other great posts and checklists on here that cover that pretty good. Just make sure every single question you have is answered.

Wow! That was a lot to remember, right? Well it would be if it didn’t work. But it almost always does. More than once, I have had a friend drag me with them when they went to buy a car or motorcycle. I hate to call it a 'system' because it really isn't. It's just some knowledge, and a bit of showmanship that gets results. I will give you an example. My current camper MSRP'ed at $46k. Dealer price was $39K. My target price was $33K. His best, cannot-go-any-lower, "I’m cutting my own throat" price was $36k. I got it for $33k and got a free Viper EZFlush sewer hose, 50A to 30A adaptor, a couple shirts and a $50 gift certificate. And it only took a single day to arrive at a deal.

That’s 3000 dollars saved just by negotiating. I don't know about you, but I have to work a lot more than a day to make $3000. Its well worth doing.

Happy Hunting!

Tim

[BandJCarm]

This is great stuff. Folks that take time to write this for no reason other than trying to help others should get some kind of trophy. Or a cold beer. Something.

I will add one thing. This is all about negotiating. I do ok at that. I know 'walking away' is the biggest motivator to a salesperson. I do it, and never worry. They make a million of these things.

That said, there are places that "the price is the price". We found exactly what we wanted after one hard full year of research, and were going to order it, not buy off the lot. So all we needed was the best place to purchase. I did all the above, to the BEST of my ability (I ain't just a purty face!!), at the local dealer. And yet, I saved $23,000 by going to Couch's, where "the price is what you pay, take it or leave it", but it's usually lower than anyone else.

This sounds mean maybe, don't mean it to at all. But I don't understand folks that buy a camper with plans to pull it all over North America, and then balk at driving to Ohio (or anywhere else) to buy it. Warranty is nice, and it saved my bacon, but it's not worth $23,000 to worry about it.

[Martsing]

Uh, wow!

Marty

[Old car]

Very well written Tim with great advice. Just bought the wife a new Subaru using these same basic principles. Well done sir!

[Wobbles]

Excellent post.

[ependydad]

This is awesome. Thanks, Tim!

I'm one who absolutely sucks at in-person negotiating. It makes me uncomfortable- gets my heart rate up and I get all sweaty.

[BandJCarm]

Ependydad, would you care to join "us" in a poker game sometime? I bet it'd be fun, come on!!

Here's a suggestion too. When numbers are being thrown around, say "Can you write that down and let me look at it". They usually write it down on a business card, something like that. Take it, study it, take out your pen (make SURE you have one), and draw a line through it. Write a number below your 'real' number. Say "This is more what I had in mind".

They'll spit coffee and throw a hissy fit. Fine. Let them. Calmly let them. Just look at them, no expression.

Then say "Well, we both have our goals" or some such. What happens next is critical. If he sits there, and won't budge, and just has very little left to say, he's probably not going to make you happy. IF however, he gets up and leaves....no matter what he says.......you got him by the short curlies. Hammer him, calmly, by doing the "scratch through" method repeatedly till about 8 that night. You'll be surprised what you end up with.

I got a new GMC Denali Dually one year ago for less than I paid for my 3/4 ton by doing this.

But car dealers WILL deal. RV dealers might.

[Philos3]

My wife and I visited an Airstream dealer recently. Every time we went into an Airstream trailer my wife was on her cell phone and a couple of times complained about the bathrooms. The salesman kept looking over at my wife and you could see the pain on his face.

[dblr]

All great advice Tim, my motto when the deal is not what I want I tell the sales person I want that unit but I don't NEED that unit, plus I figure they have to sell to make a living and if the price isn't where I want it I don't have to buy, thanks for posting all that I really hope it helps someone

[LinandLen]

Great article! We just went through negotiations on our used purchase. I'm the one who does the negotiating in the family. I have to say it wasn't much fun.

Sales manager came in, and he threw everything at me including a $2500 PDI! He wouldn't budge on that, but I managed to get him down another $1,000 when we told him we were going to walk. Basically, he was having us pay for all the repairs this RV was going to need. Anyway, I feel we made out ok with being a few thousand off our lowest out the door price and a $250 gift card to their store. Sales rep said she had never seen him so hard on a customer.

[doc73]

Do people pay for the pdi? I've always just expected it as part of the deal.. I will say this past week I saw a trailer with a sticker saying $147 for the rvia (or whatever they are) STICKER!

I asked and the guy who said it was to say that their trailers are built to industry standards and safer.. It was a fr.. To which I said they all are.. I can not believe anyone would pay for your sticker that comes that way from the factory.. I'd have you keep the sticker and drop the 147. He seemed speechless.

[jkoenig24]

Check the "finalists" with the slides RETRACTED as well as when extended. It's NOT unusual for an RV to be difficult (to almost impossible) to use when the slides are IN. You want to know in ADVANCE, just how usable (or not) your rig will be if you need/want to briefly stop along the way. After taking delivery is a bad to learn you can NOT get into the fridge/toilet/whatever when the slides are in.

[doc73]

Originally Posted by jkoenig24

Check the "finalists" with the slides RETRACTED as well as when extended. It's NOT unusual for an RV to be difficult (to almost impossible) to use when the slides are IN. You want to know in ADVANCE, just how usable (or not) your rig will be if you need/want to briefly stop along the way. After taking delivery is a bad to learn you can NOT get into the fridge/toilet/whatever when the slides are in.

Or the fuse panel as seems to be the current talks of late.

[Jean D]

Great post! The hubby and I were lucky in that my brother had purchased a Rockwood Mini Lite in the spring (2304). So this past fall when we ordered a 2503S we called him after dealership visits to compare prices and add on items. It was nice that he spent the money first and we used his experience to save us money. We purchased from different dealerships.

[5picker]

Originally Posted by doc73

Do people pay for the pdi? I've always just expected it as part of the deal.. I will say this past week I saw a trailer with a sticker saying $147 for the rvia (or whatever they are) STICKER!

I asked and the guy who said it was to say that their trailers are built to industry standards and safer.. It was a fr.. To which I said they all are.. I can not believe anyone would pay for your sticker that comes that way from the factory.. I'd have you keep the sticker and drop the 147. He seemed speechless.

Sometimes the PDI is a separate charge.
And that's OK as long as you are comfortable with the out the door price.

Makes no difference if you pay 15k for a unit and the PDI is free or if you pay $14k for the unit and the PDI is $1k. Same price either way.

As for the RVIA sticker...
I've never seen or heard of anyone being able to hold the manufacturers to the so called 'inspection program to monitor compliance' which RVIA represents. Let's be honest... we've all seen some pretty shoddy work come off the line. I don't know who is following through on the inspecting or demanding compliance but it isn't RVIA.

But the manufacturers 'supposedly' have to abide by the so called rules to be able to manufacture and sell the units, so they simply pass that cost of being a member on to the buyer.

Thanks to Tim for the post.
It should certainly help many.

[Vince and Charlette]

Exceptional advice! Thank you for taking the time to think through the subject and document it on a well-written post. (This post is a "keeper".) Even your grammar is pretty good...minus the expletives. My wife is 5'2" and a "cute little thing". But, she is a very skilled negotiator. (Shark with a bad headache is the first thing that comes to mind.) I do the upfront chit chat nailing down what we must have (and thoroughly researched) and then, once we're back in the salesman's office, she smoothly transitions the conversation from me to herself. One technique she uses (which embarrasses me) is to offer something ridiculously low and then jokingly banters the salesman about why he didn't take her seriously. Of course, we all know that price is a joke, but my DW says that it psychologically creates an anchor point he can't get out of his mind. When he won't deal, she refers back to her "silly" offer. (Almost always offers to bring in homemade cookies, which she actually does.) We haven't ever made a deal without the manager getting involved. I have to struggle to keep from laughing when the salesman "has to check with the manager". If the manager actually shows up, I know they now consider us a serious prospect. You're right on about walking away. That is your nuclear option! Great post. Thank you. Oh, I am compelled to add that we NEVER EVER go for a deal unless we are totally in agreement with each other. (That's why God made us one!) If either one of us feels hesitant, then the deal is off or we go home to talk about it...never while at the dealership.

[hbillsmith]

Many times the dealers getting finance incentives from their book of lenders. If you happen to be a cash buyer, you can agree to finance with them to get that extra $500 or $1000 finance incentive. Just make sure you can pay the balance with no penalty. The finance incentives are paid to the dealer when your note is executed, however, many times the finance company can take back the incentive paid if the note is paid off in less than 6 months. Simplest method is to setup an autopay for the first 5 months and in month 6 (or 7 to be safe) pay off the entire balance.

[Cowracer]

Originally Posted by hbillsmith

Many times the dealers getting finance incentives from their book of lenders. If you happen to be a cash buyer, you can agree to finance with them to get that extra $500 or $1000 finance incentive. Just make sure you can pay the balance with no penalty. The finance incentives are paid to the dealer when your note is executed, however, many times the finance company can take back the incentive paid if the note is paid off in less than 6 months. Simplest method is to setup an autopay for the first 5 months and in month 6 (or 7 to be safe) pay off the entire balance.

Excellent point! just make sure to factor in all things. I can probably make more that $500 leaving my cash where it is for 6 months.

Tim

[Mountndream]

we just were told by a dealer that he paid X and then got a 3000 dollar discount based on his volume of sales

[MacDR]

Tim,
You Rock.. Great Advice..