VCROSS Sway Control

[pdchristensen]

Originally Posted by Danimalkr

We bought a 2013 Vibe 6502. We absolutely love the trailer, however ...

The trailer came with the E2 WDH factory mounts (2 studs on each side of the tongue). The dealer installed an E2 WDH. We took it home and loaded the large cargo storage with 350# of camping gear... no fresh, grey or black water. About 50# more in the cabinets. (far less than the 646# stated in the brochure)

On the road, I took a small swerve to avoid a retread at 50 MPH. The trailer went into a death sway. It took my tow vehicle into the oncoming lane (luckily no traffic)

I researched and found the cause to be not enough tongue weight. Recommended 10-15% Problem is the Vibe 6502 starts about 10% (3164# empty and 310# Tongue weight empty) The large cargo compartment and the fresh water tank is behind the axle. Anything you put in the CC or fresh tank removes tongue weight. I had 100# (3% Tongue weight) ... I bought a Sherline tongue weight scale.

The steel on steel friction sway control on the E2 hitch is ineffective without adequate tongue weight. (Actually, the E2 Manual recommends a minimum of 400# TW)

Do the math ... I'm at a loss as to what the FR engineers were thinking ... am I missing something ?

I've had it a month and haven't used it as I feel it is not safe to tow. The dealer won't take it back even though it's never been used.

I'm changing to a Reese 600/6000 Equal-i-zer hitch with 4 point sway control. Also, I'm considering the Dexter 6000# axle upgrade as explained by pdchristensen in this thread so I can add some lead weight to the front and put more than pillows in the generous cargo storage compartment.
Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Hi Danimalkr

I had my 6504 on the road a few times this year now (with a 6K axle upgrade), and equalizer sway control hitch. I was surprised to find that it does not take much to mess up the hitch weight which can severely impact sway tendency.

On my trip out of town I loaded some bikes in the forward "bunk area slide out" as well as several bins of supplies in the forward bathroom area. My pre-road trip measure of the tongue weight was around 380 lbs. On the way out I stopped at a weigh scale and found the loaded trailer weight at just under 3600 lbs. The trailer behaved well "no sway" on trip out. On the way back I did not want to cram the front of the trailer area (as we wanted access to make snacks on the road trip home). I dismantled the bikes and threw them in the cargo hold and placed all our supplies on top of the rear bed. The noted the trailer had a tendency for more sway on the way home. Checked into the weigh scales at the end of trip. (loaded trailer weighed in at 3800 lbs. When I got home I checked the tongue weight. (under 250 lbs). It was clear to me that it is not to hard to mess up the ratio of weight distribution which clearly will impact the sway characteristics on these trailers.

[TeJay]

Do yourself a big favor and install some decent shocks under your TT. No amount of explaining will ever convince me that TT's don't need shock absorbers. When you hit a bump or a gust of wind and the TT starts to rock and roll just what do you think a shock absorber will do???? Well it will absorb the TT side to side rocking and reduce the chance of starting trailer sway.

I've posted extensively on this and other forums about the need for shocks. Every suspension, springs, leaf or coil, torsion or anything else compresses when hitting bumps or gusts of wind. That movement has to be dampened or it gets out of control. In the case of TT sway a gust of wind starts the motion and if nothing reduces the motion it can act like a snowball rolling down a hill. With no hocks you have nothing to dampen the sudden movement. It has to take its normal course of action and that is gradual reduction of movement until it is dissipated. A shock will dampen that movement.

WDH are needed to control tongue and TT weight. They have also been designed to assist in trailer sway. My opinion is with the addition of shocks that aspect of the WDH would be less important but probably still necessary. There are no places to install anti-sway bars or track rods on travel trailer frames. Motor homes use all that stuff to control frame motion, road bumps, wind gusts, etc, etc and they are still some times in need of stuff to help with all of these issues.

Name me one TT of any sort that has anti-sway bars or any sort of frame movement control. Since there are none then why don't they at least have shocks. Well heck no. When you can be expected to spend an additional $400-900 on a good WDH with sway control so they can save some $$$$$. Why add shocks to control trailer sway when you can spend the $$$$ ????

TT's are built on the cheap !!!!!

Last statement. If shocks are not necessary then why are there no other vehicles/chassis traveling down today's highways that don't have shock absorbers???? Just name me one. Please don't say boat trailers because they should have them also.

JM2CW
TeJay

[pdchristensen]

Originally Posted by TeJay

Do yourself a big favor and install some decent shocks under your TT. No amount of explaining will ever convince me that TT's don't need shock absorbers. When you hit a bump or a gust of wind and the TT starts to rock and roll just what do you think a shock absorber will do???? Well it will absorb the TT side to side rocking and reduce the chance of starting trailer sway.

I've posted extensively on this and other forums about the need for shocks. Every suspension, springs, leaf or coil, torsion or anything else compresses when hitting bumps or gusts of wind. That movement has to be dampened or it gets out of control. In the case of TT sway a gust of wind starts the motion and if nothing reduces the motion it can act like a snowball rolling down a hill. With no hocks you have nothing to dampen the sudden movement. It has to take its normal course of action and that is gradual reduction of movement until it is dissipated. A shock will dampen that movement.

WDH are needed to control tongue and TT weight. They have also been designed to assist in trailer sway. My opinion is with the addition of shocks that aspect of the WDH would be less important but probably still necessary. There are no places to install anti-sway bars or track rods on travel trailer frames. Motor homes use all that stuff to control frame motion, road bumps, wind gusts, etc, etc and they are still some times in need of stuff to help with all of these issues.

Name me one TT of any sort that has anti-sway bars or any sort of frame movement control. Since there are none then why don't they at least have shocks. Well heck no. When you can be expected to spend an additional $400-900 on a good WDH with sway control so they can save some $$$$$. Why add shocks to control trailer sway when you can spend the $$$$ ????

TT's are built on the cheap !!!!!

Last statement. If shocks are not necessary then why are there no other vehicles/chassis traveling down today's highways that don't have shock absorbers???? Just name me one. Please don't say boat trailers because they should have them also.

JM2CW
TeJay

Very thoughtful commentary. I am not sure of the mechanics of mounting shocks to a torsion axle (quite familiar with the schackle approach to a spring set up), howevr I thought the advent of the "torsion axle" was to improve upon the inflexiblity of the conventional axle. The manufacturer literature - as per attachment - would suggest the torsion axle eliminates the need for shock absorbers. The damping comparison graphs would support that. In any event I certainly would love to see a picture or diagram of a torsion axle retrofitted with shocks - if anyone has one.

[TeJay]

Thanks for the comment. I'm only interested in giving information to those that want to do the correct thing to help their camping experiences.

That's a good thought but think about it. It does not matter what the type of suspension. All those movements must either gradually reduce in intensity by dissipating or be dampened by a shock. Basic laws of physics, "Energy can be neither created nor destroyed but be transformed from one form into another. In this case the movement is converted into heat.

There may be some dampening effect of the torsion axles but they still are not shocks. They do ride better but I believe it is the independent action of each wheel that gives one the impression of dampened road action.

On our last TT it was a Dexter torsion design and it did do one great thing. Instead of two straight axles you do have independent movement of each wheel. This does one very significant thing. When you hit a bump (raise & lower a wheel) the up and down movement is transferred to the other side of the axle. Any wheel movement on one side is transferred and felt on the other side. Independent axles eliminate that other wheel issue but the dampening aspect is still necessary and would greatly improve the ride and sway control.

If you do a search on these forums for posts by, "Old Coot" he did some great work designing shock mounts. I did it on our first TT and was going to do it on the Tor-Flex axles but we decided to trade it in for a MH.
Coot will send you some drawing and he has some great pictures of his design.
On the Tor-Flex axles I think it would be fairly easy. A bracket can be attached to the bolts that hold the backing plate for the brakes. You'd have to get longer bolts but they would anchor the bracket well. The upper shock mount would then be bolted to the frame side. I think I could have done it close to what Coot did on his TT even though it was not a Tor-Flex design.

If you attempt it and run into any problems PM me and I'll see what I can come up with. Like I said I was going to build the set up but don't have to now.

TeJay

[Danimalkr]

pdchristensen,
Glad you had a good trip, thanks for sharing. Things didn't go so well for us on our first trip. I'll explain later with some shocking photos after some litigation.
Danimalkr

[Greyhawk]

I have a 2013 V-Cross 6501 Vibe. Looking for sway control.
I want to thank you everyone for all of the good information.
I called the Service Rep. at Equal-i-zer and was directed to their Web Page - Special Install Guide - V-Nose. There, I found 3 options for install.

[Greyhawk]

After reading the information provided in this thread plus a call to the factory, I still was undecided. Then I went to the local RV Dealer and spoke to the Parts Manager and the Service Technician (who happens to be a close friend and very knowledgeable). I payed for the Equal-i-zer 90-00-1000. Will pick it up in a day or two.
After reading the factory Special Install Guide for V-Nose trailers, I didn't like what I read. I questioned the Factory Service Tech. about another option. Then I questioned the Dealer Tech. with the same idea. Both agreed it was an excellent idea.
Factory recommendations were #2. cut through the floor and put the top bolt inside the TT (no way) or #3. shorten the bracket and weld it to the frame (which I didn't like either).
I have 30+ years of Industrial Maintenance experience. It's OK to weld in line with Box Tubing but not recommended to weld across because the heat will weaken the tube. I seen where the factory welded the brackets on in that manner but the Dealer Tech. told me it would void the warranty if he or I welded on the frame. A MIG welder generates less heat but lacks penetration. An ARC welder gets better penetration but generates much more heat.
With the help of the two Techs., my plan is to cut the brackets so they butt up against the floor. Then I will drill through the frame with a hole just large enough for the top bolt to pass through. The damage to the strength of the frame should be minimal and when I thighten the bolts, the clamping effect of the bracket should re-strengthen the frame equal to or greater than the original.
That's my plan and I'm sticking to it. :-))
Thanks for all of the information. It was a very good read.

[pdchristensen]

Originally Posted by TeJay

Thanks for the comment. I'm only interested in giving information to those that want to do the correct thing to help their camping experiences.

That's a good thought but think about it. It does not matter what the type of suspension. All those movements must either gradually reduce in intensity by dissipating or be dampened by a shock. Basic laws of physics, "Energy can be neither created nor destroyed but be transformed from one form into another. In this case the movement is converted into heat.

There may be some dampening effect of the torsion axles but they still are not shocks. They do ride better but I believe it is the independent action of each wheel that gives one the impression of dampened road action.

On our last TT it was a Dexter torsion design and it did do one great thing. Instead of two straight axles you do have independent movement of each wheel. This does one very significant thing. When you hit a bump (raise & lower a wheel) the up and down movement is transferred to the other side of the axle. Any wheel movement on one side is transferred and felt on the other side. Independent axles eliminate that other wheel issue but the dampening aspect is still necessary and would greatly improve the ride and sway control.

If you do a search on these forums for posts by, "Old Coot" he did some great work designing shock mounts. I did it on our first TT and was going to do it on the Tor-Flex axles but we decided to trade it in for a MH.
Coot will send you some drawing and he has some great pictures of his design.
On the Tor-Flex axles I think it would be fairly easy. A bracket can be attached to the bolts that hold the backing plate for the brakes. You'd have to get longer bolts but they would anchor the bracket well. The upper shock mount would then be bolted to the frame side. I think I could have done it close to what Coot did on his TT even though it was not a Tor-Flex design.

If you attempt it and run into any problems PM me and I'll see what I can come up with. Like I said I was going to build the set up but don't have to now.

TeJay

I had a closer look at my trailer - the 6500 series trailer torsion axles extend beyond the trailer body, so likely any kind of shock absorber would need to mechanically connect to the torsion axle itself. I contacted Dexter for their opinion on adding any form of shock absorber to an existing set up. Dexter's reply would suggest it is problematic to do an after market install.

Paul

If the customer wants shock brackets they would need to order them with the brackets welded to the frame. These can't be installed after the axle beam has been stuffed with rubber.

Rick Kapsa | Product Manager
Dexter Axle - Company Headquarters

[PA Paco]

Originally Posted by Greyhawk

After reading the information provided in this thread plus a call to the factory, I still was undecided. Then I went to the local RV Dealer and spoke to the Parts Manager and the Service Technician (who happens to be a close friend and very knowledgeable). I payed for the Equal-i-zer 90-00-1000. Will pick it up in a day or two.
After reading the factory Special Install Guide for V-Nose trailers, I didn't like.....

Greyhawk
Pdchristensen posted some pictures of the WDH frame bracket see page 2 of this thread. He states his 2013 model was factory installed. I’m surprised yours did not come with the same factory setup. You might be able to contact Forest River, maybe they will send you the brackets. My 2012 6501 did not come with this bracket, the RV dealership that installed mine pulled this bracket from some other WDH kit & was able to slide it onto the frame (see page 2 of this thread for a picture). You can see where they had to cut the top of L-Bracket to avoid the TT floor.
This install would eliminate the need for you to drill thru your frame.

[Greyhawk]

Thank you PA Paco;
I've read this entire thread. Every post and every picture.
The purpose of posting my game plan was to give other reader some food for thought.
I just double checked my Vibe (you had me guessing). It is titled as a 2013 (first one shipped to the dealer for that year model) but does not have the factory installed brackets.
I picked up my Equal-i-zer this afternoon. Spoke with the Service Manager while I was there and he liked my idea. He said he agreed with my logic.
Now all I need to do is get this worn out old body in gear and get it installed. Won't need it until the end of December but don't want to wait for snow to start falling. lol.

[AstronomyGuy]

Hello All
I had to send my 6504 Vibe back to the factory for repair because they put the wrong molding on the top at the roof line and it didn't cover the side where it meets the roof and it allowed water to get in. They called and said it was repaired so instead of waiting for the dealer to go pick it up I decided to make the trip over to Indiana from Ohio to pick it up. As I was going over it with the repairman he said oh yeah, We replaced the axle because it lost it's camber. I could see where the tires had been rubbing. I thought that was strange since I have only had it out two times. They threw in an electric power tongue jack for my troubles. I noticed on the way home that my electric brake controller now flashes SH for short. So that will be another problem to deal with. I just purchased an Equal-i-zer Weight Distribution System w/ 4-Point Sway Control - 6,000 lbs GTW, 600 lbs TW. It may be a little over kill but I tried the single arm sway control and it was a waist of money in my case. The brackets did not come mounted on my frame so I will have to decide on the mounting method. I may have the brackets welded on if I can't slip them over the top of the frame . I have a standard Chevy Silverado as a tow vehicle . I need the sway control more than I need the weight distribution.

[KWM]

I have a Vibe 826VFK and the dealer did a poor job of setting up the Equal-i-zer hitch. I subsequently cut off the top of the L-brackets to get enough weight transfer and it has been working great for nearly a year now.

[AstronomyGuy]

I have to cut the top off the L -Bracket and in orders to get enough room to slide the bolt over the frame I have to cut some off the top of the bracket. The bolt will sill have steel around it. It just won't have an inch of steel. After I get it installed I'll decide whether or not to have a few beads of weld put on the frame for general safety.

[Greyhawk]

Installed the Equal-i-zer today. I used the "drill and bolt thru the frame" method that I explained in my earlier post. I am pleased with the installation. I did have to cut the top hole off from the L bracket. (figured that would be the case.)
After much measuring, calculating, guess-ta-mating and making the pre-adjustments, I installed the head in the receiver and completed a full hook-up to the TT. Keep in mind that I'm not on a "hard flat surface" and I don't have the TT loaded as I would for a trip, but from all indications, the set-up is very near perfect. However, confirmation checks will be completed before the next road trip.
Here is a closer view of the hitch. All of the weight is off of the tongue jack & I didn't need the safety chains for this test.
I was very pleased with the Instructions that came with the Hitch. Very detailed and easy to understand. And if that isn't enough, they have very good videos on their web sight.

Thanks again for all of the comments.

[cfernandz]

I have a Vibe 6504 and I installed the Equalizer 1000/10,000 just about 2 weeks ago. My trailer came with the preinstalled brackets, but I did have to cut the tops off the L bars. Took about a 100 mile round trip this with the camper this weekend and all I can say is "wow". The difference in control is substantial and I'm glad I invested the money in the Equalizer.

[pdchristensen]

Originally Posted by cfernandz

I have a Vibe 6504 and I installed the Equalizer 1000/10,000 just about 2 weeks ago. My trailer came with the preinstalled brackets, but I did have to cut the tops off the L bars. Took about a 100 mile round trip this with the camper this weekend and all I can say is "wow". The difference in control is substantial and I'm glad I invested the money in the Equalizer.

The Vibe 6500 trailers can be a bit of a challenge for managing sway.
(especially managing the hitch weight to 10-15% of the trailer weight).
The dry weight of most of these units come in over 3,000 lbs depending on how they are equipped. (my 6504 was delivered at 3200 lbs). The problem is the units are equipped with an over sized rear cargo hold that really has limited Cargo Carrying Capicity because anything loaded back there ultimately reduces your hitch weight. The 3500 lb axle/hub & tire ratings also reduce Cargo Carrying Capacity.

I eliminated the risk of axle/hub/tire failure by replacing the 3500 lb Lippert with a 6K Dexter axle, hubs and upgraded from 14 inch to 15 inch 6 bolt tires.

I also installed the equalizer hitch for better towing performance of my 2012 Chevy Traverse (5200 lb tow capacity)

I have been journalling my weights each trip to track the sway characteristics of my 6504 unit. Two weeks ago on my maiden voyage with the new axle I left home with a tongue weight of 350 lbs and a measured trailer weight of 3900 lbs. The trailer towed nicely. On the return trip home I noticed the trailer sway was significantly more. The trailer weighed in at the scales at over 4000 lbs and I measured the tongue weight at home at only 250 lbs. The difference was how I loaded the rear cargon area. (trip out bikes were in the trailer, trip back bikes were in the cargo hold).

On my most recent trip I played around with the cargo and verified it is not that hard to mess up your hitch weight when loading the rear under bed storage compartment.

[Greyhawk]

As per my earlier post, #47 & #54, The Brackets are mounted on the frame. Thought I would post pictures just in case anyone was interested.
Very pleased with the end results.
Because of an electrical junction box on the left side frame, I chose 29.5" back from the ball. ( suggested location is 32" but can be anywhere from 27" - 32".)
I had to cut the top hole off of the L Bracket. (cut just above the top of the 2nd. hole.)
And, yes, I added an extra 5" bolt just for added strength. Not sure it was needed but............... it makes me feel better.

[dboreham]

Originally Posted by pdchristensen

Here are some photos of the bracket installed by Saturn Industriesin Winnipeg, Manitoba to accomodate the beefier axle.

I noticed you have a cover on your Vibe, and plenty of snow like we have here.
Would you recommend that type of cover? and if so, please post some information : vendor, size etc.

Thanks.

[pdchristensen]

Originally Posted by dboreham

I noticed you have a cover on your Vibe, and plenty of snow like we have here.
Would you recommend that type of cover? and if so, please post some information : vendor, size etc.

Thanks.

Hi dboreham

I think a cover is a personal preference. (RV's usually sit on dealers lots without covers), I just like to protect my unit as much as possible fro UV rays, snow melt, etc. Bought mine from ADCO - Travel Trailer SFS AquaShed® - I forget the part#, however if you check out the website you can see the covers are sold to fit by the length of the unit. I believe I ordered one to fit 20 ft. to 22 ft.

[dboreham]

Originally Posted by pdchristensen

Hi dboreham

I think a cover is a personal preference. (RV's usually sit on dealers lots without covers), I just like to protect my unit as much as possible fro UV rays, snow melt, etc. Bought mine from ADCO - Travel Trailer SFS AquaShed® - I forget the part#, however if you check out the website you can see the covers are sold to fit by the length of the unit. I believe I ordered one to fit 20 ft. to 22 ft.

Ok thanks, and thanks also for the size tip. In our climate we have permanent snow for 6 months of the year so anything you leave out in the weather will degrade pretty quickly. I found this vendor selling both ADCO and Carver (more expensive) covers : Travel Trailer RV Covers

Did you do anything to enclose the A/C topside ? I wondered about building a plywood box around it, something like that, to keep the snow weight off it.

Ideally I'd construct a building big enough to house the trailer, but that won't happen before this coming winter for sure..