Concessionaire Managed Campground Problems

[Mr Brian]

Originally Posted by Homebrew

…I was using my phone to make the reservation and showed everything was booked even after refreshing and turning the phone off and on. My wife used the iPad and over 50 percent of the camp sites were available…

Having experienced device browser (especially cookie) settings affect some on-line transactions at non-camping websites, you bring up an important suggestion. Thanks for sharing!

[ppine]

Pay dudes are an odd group to begin with. Good ones control the campground with a light hand.

I have not heard of this phenomenon of handing out reservations to friends or people that bribe them. I will keep an eye out for it.

[FlaNative]

SmackIt: Thanks for bringing this up to our attention. Here in Florida we tried to make reservations for John Pennekamp State Park for the spring break in 2022. Reserve America was the concessionaire at that time. This park is very popular and hard to get into, to be fair; however Reserve America takes reservations beginning at 8am. We had previously scouted the sites we liked from previous visits and tried to make a reservation at exactly 8am, by watching the time on our computer, thinking that they are in synch with the networks. The sites we had picked out were reserved even after logging in before 8am, and sitting on 'go' to click on the 'Book it' button.
This occurred several times over the course of 3 days, trying to fit our schedule into a time that would make it worth our while (driving time and fuel). We eventually gave up trying. We even tried clicking on the 'Book It' button 10 seconds BEFORE 8am, thinking that their computers are on before the 8am opening time as advertised.
We wrote to the state park system to inquire why this was happening, and including the mention of some favoritism being done behind the scenes. Their answer was that there were no back door ways to manipulate the system and everyone was being treated the same.......RIGHT...!
Since then Florida has their own reservation system and to be fair, I haven't tried to get into John Pennekamp since our attempt, but even now I'm sure all is reserved. The point being that even by some state run reservation systems, there may be some sly operations going on. Obviously I don't want to paint a broad brush here of misuse or favoritism by ALL reservation systems, but things just don't add up and better policing is needed.

[SmackIt]

I just had a long conversation with the concessionaire who finally returned my call. They were very friendly, and knew exactly what was going on.

Let me start by saying thanks, I appreciate the helpful comments. That being said, there's very little I'm not aware of when it comes to the recreation.gov website. I know practically every line of code that runs it, and I know all of the tools you can use to game the reservation system.

This particular campground has 21 reservable campsites. Someone has gone through an enormous amount of effort to create a bot that instantly sweeps all 21 sites using 21 different accounts. The concessionaire knows it's happening, and is powerless to fix it because the problem is entirely the fault of recreation.gov. There are two loopholes that are being abused.

#1 All 21 sites are being reserved with 21 different accounts, but they are using the same credit card number. Banning the accounts is pointless, as they would just set them up again, but banning the credit card would invalidate the reservation. Recreation.gov won't do that.

#2 The person doing this has been modifying the reservations before the next availability window to push the dates into the future. Recreation.gov shouldn't allow the modification of any reservation until 60 days after the initial booking.

So there we have it, no monkey business on behalf of the concessionaire, just another bad person working a loophole in a broken system. The concessionaire can control the release date of the campsites on recreation.gov, but I don't think messing with that would help, as the offending party could just program the bot to execute every 30 seconds to check the sites.

[JimM2109S]

SmackIt, did the concessionaire say whether they can prove the sites are being resold? I'm pretty sure this is prohibited by the reservation system. The concessionaire should be able to require the original CC be shown at check in, or an ID that matches the name of the CC used to make the reservation. Someone is using the sites, and a LE officer making a visit during one of the check ins might lead to some finger pointing.

[SmackIt]

Originally Posted by JimM2109S

SmackIt, did the concessionaire say whether they can prove the sites are being resold? I'm pretty sure this is prohibited by the reservation system. The concessionaire should be able to require the original CC be shown at check in, or an ID that matches the name of the CC used to make the reservation. Someone is using the sites, and a LE officer making a visit during one of the check ins might lead to some finger pointing.

I think it's pretty hard for them to prove "reselling". You can get 20 friends together with different accounts on recreation.gov, there's nothing stopping all 20 from using the same credit card. This is the problem with the system, it's based on the account making the booking, not the credit card used for the booking.

We discussed the issue with ID verification, and he felt that's a rather slippery slope when you start asking 65 year old retired people managing campgrounds to force people into showing ID. The people doing this aren't braking any laws, they're just exploiting a broken system. He said they may confront them this year because half the reservations they booked and modified last year ended up being no shows or cancelled.

Remember, the reason recreation.gov doesn't care is because they make a lot of money off modifications and cancellations of reservations. They're in the business of reservations, not campsites.

[FlaNative]

1.There most certainly has to be a name behind the credit card to which they can trace who's doing the multiple reservations and stop them. By sending these people a warning to not honor anymore reservations made by them because of their abuse could be a fix. (Yes they can set up another account, but the trail to their credit card will lead to the offender, and flagging the credit card could help as well).

2. The concessionaire can limit the number of sites that can be reserved by any one user. I would suggest that the limit be set at 3. This may slow down the abuse of the system. All they have to do is set up their reservation app to stop the reservations at 3 sites per credit card. In the case you site, the offending party would have to have 7 different credit cards to make 21 reservations.
3. After making the limit on 3 reservations per card, the user can't make anymore reservations at the same campground for 14 days. (I know it won't work, but it's worth a try).
I don't know if there are any hard and fast solutions to this issue, but I think that there are solutions out there that would stop the abusefollow the money).

As far as ID verification is concerned, we are normally required to show ID upon check in (should be a requirement everywhere). I don't see any problem with that with the average camper agreeing to that. By doing that if there are people who abuse campground etiquette, they are easily identified and warned not to return.
Follow the money.

[PoppySteve]

Originally Posted by SmackIt

I just had a long conversation with the concessionaire who finally returned my call. They were very friendly, and knew exactly what was going on.

Let me start by saying thanks, I appreciate the helpful comments. That being said, there's very little I'm not aware of when it comes to the recreation.gov website. I know practically every line of code that runs it, and I know all of the tools you can use to game the reservation system.

This particular campground has 21 reservable campsites. Someone has gone through an enormous amount of effort to create a bot that instantly sweeps all 21 sites using 21 different accounts. The concessionaire knows it's happening, and is powerless to fix it because the problem is entirely the fault of recreation.gov. There are two loopholes that are being abused.

#1 All 21 sites are being reserved with 21 different accounts, but they are using the same credit card number. Banning the accounts is pointless, as they would just set them up again, but banning the credit card would invalidate the reservation. Recreation.gov won't do that.

#2 The person doing this has been modifying the reservations before the next availability window to push the dates into the future. Recreation.gov shouldn't allow the modification of any reservation until 60 days after the initial booking.

So there we have it, no monkey business on behalf of the concessionaire, just another bad person working a loophole in a broken system. The concessionaire can control the release date of the campsites on recreation.gov, but I don't think messing with that would help, as the offending party could just program the bot to execute every 30 seconds to check the sites.

So what is the path from here?

[SmackIt]

Originally Posted by PoppySteve

So what is the path from here?

For those of us that want to camp there, we sit and wait for the cancellations.

For the concessionaire, they're working with recreation.gov, but I don't think the problem can be solved

The only other possible solution would be turning this campground into a lottery based reservation system.... that's not going to make most people very happy.

[Papadave]

Campground re booking sites buy up popular sites and re sell them as well. If not resold they release them at no charge to them. It’s like bop a mole to find one night but several in a row is a worse problem. I refuse to buy from them. I avoid concessions as well and it’s sad as they grab some great parks. On a positive note, when you are logged in and looking at a site the system puts a temporary hold on that site which takes a few minutes to release if you don’t book it. Avoids double booking. The site may pop back up. Sometimes perseverance helps. Meanwhile the booking service is contracted out and the concession is a contract and the government is non responsive so like Momma said “life ain’t fair”. She also said “what the hell is wrong with you boy!” But that’s another story. Privatizing Medicare is ongoing with the part c thing and social security will likely follow so it up to us to adapt and rise to the challenge. By the way, I was a government contracting officer and a good one but the contractors always found a way to nail us. After three years of watching that, I privatized myself!

[Dave1941]

Here's an old request for proposals (RFP) if anyone wants to get an idea of how the system works. One thing to note is the contractor evaluation process. It relies heavily on user comment forms. Of course, the form is long and no guarantees they all are turned in.

https://sam.gov/opp/067d3176f888bb038caa3cc791bbbc31/view#award-summary

[Dave1941]

Here's a new RFP.

https://sam.gov/opp/0e41a962bc854b4595f9596b332171c6/view

[AZ Pete]

If you have a problem with a concessionaire on a National Forest. I would suggest writing the local District first, yes a snail mail letter. If you don't get a prompt reply, cc the Forest, Region and Washington Office. The reservation contract is handled by the Washington Office, and has been force fed to the Forests since day 1. A private lobby group pressures the FS to put up to 95% of all sites on the reservation system. Only public pressure can change that. But, the Washington Office will be ignorant of the problems, as will the local folks, if you do not tell them. The concession operators are inclined to "filter" out the complaints, as are the Districts, Forests and Regions.

[Bramic71]

Originally Posted by SmackIt

I've noticed a disturbing issue with a particular concessionaire managed forest service campground. It appears the concessionaire is playing with their ability to hold and release campsites via the recreation.gov reservation site.

Recreation.gov doesn't have any control over which sites are released and when they become available. This is handled by the concessionaire's that manage the campgrounds. When I showed recreation.gov what was going on, they stated they have no control, and I needed to deal with the concessionaire. The concessionaire does not answer calls or emails.

This same situation happened last year. When I approached some of the campers that secured reservations, as well as the camp host, I got some pretty vague responses on how they managed to secure their reservations.

Who controls the concessionaires, and what recourse do we have when they brake the rules? These campgrounds belong to the public, they shouldn't be able to play favorites with these campsites.

Isn't that just amazing. It seem in any industry people over use their appointed powers. This absolutely should not be allowed and they should be fired for thinking they are the elite.

[Jcape]

Originally Posted by SmackIt

I've noticed a disturbing issue with a particular concessionaire managed forest service campground. It appears the concessionaire is playing with their ability to hold and release campsites via the recreation.gov reservation site.

Recreation.gov doesn't have any control over which sites are released and when they become available. This is handled by the concessionaire's that manage the campgrounds. When I showed recreation.gov what was going on, they stated they have no control, and I needed to deal with the concessionaire. The concessionaire does not answer calls or emails.

This same situation happened last year. When I approached some of the campers that secured reservations, as well as the camp host, I got some pretty vague responses on how they managed to secure their reservations.

Who controls the concessionaires, and what recourse do we have when they brake the rules? These campgrounds belong to the public, they shouldn't be able to play favorites with these campsites.

The only way to fix it is to get Congress involved. I have been to National Parks and National Forest campgrounds all around the country and they are all the same. You didn't name the concessionaire, but it was probably ARAMARK, they have most including hotels on Park Service Lands. You can't even see My. Rushmore without paying a concessionaire first. We paid for our parks, we pay for the maintenance, yet we get charge high prices for poor service from these people.
I have contacted the park service and they don't respond. Just more of our government at work for us, not, they are for business.

[Daebado]

Originally Posted by SmackIt

I just had a long conversation with the concessionaire who finally returned my call....

This particular campground has 21 reservable campsites. Someone has gone through an enormous amount of effort to create a bot that instantly sweeps all 21 sites using 21 different accounts. The concessionaire knows it's happening, and is powerless to fix it because the problem is entirely the fault of recreation.gov. There are two loopholes that are being abused.

So whoever is doing this has to be reselling these sites, right? And it's happening all across the country. So where the heck are they selling the sites?
With all the frustrated campers out there wanting sites, there is no lack of customers but we're not getting these sites, yet someone must be. Who's getting these sites and how are they doing it?? Is there a black market for campsites?

Something doesn't add up, here or I'm missing a significant piece of the puzzle!

[SmackIt]

Originally Posted by Daebado

So whoever is doing this has to be reselling these sites, right? And it's happening all across the country. So where the heck are they selling the sites?
With all the frustrated campers out there wanting sites, there is no lack of customers but we're not getting these sites, yet someone must be. Who's getting these sites and how are they doing it?? Is there a black market for campsites?

Something doesn't add up, here or I'm missing a significant piece of the puzzle!

They're not reselling the sites, they're basically reserving the majority of the campground for their own group.

[Bramic71]

Originally Posted by SmackIt

They're not reselling the sites, they're basically reserving the majority of the campground for their own group.

They might as well be. Both ways are crooked as heck. These are the exact people that cry foul if the same thing happened to them.

[jfriedhoff]

Originally Posted by phillyg

Somewhere up the chain of command you'll find a govt. contracting officer (wife used to be one) who awarded a competitive contract to the consessionare entity. There is also a contract officers representative (COR) who manages the contract on a daily basis to ensure the consessionare is performing to the contract requirements. I suspect the CO is located in DC. As a former COR, I wouldn't want numerous unresolved complaints on my watch.

I'm a retired active duty US Army Officer (Armor/Aviation) and former active duty DOD Warranted PCO (Purchasing Contracting Officer /1102 series), now Full Time RVer. Saw the thread from Outdoors RV forum and just had to comment....

The COR has been given the Authority to monitor Contractor (i.e. Concessionaire) operations by the CO. The COR & CO as Govt employees want USER feedback (yes You) to populate matrices for scoring/grading contractor performance (i.e. Concessionaire Performance) against the stated Written Contract Requirements....The COR will investigate and together with the CO can and do influence contractor performance both positively and negatively iaw the awarded written Contract requirements.

If ya want true action/reform out of a questionable Concessionaire their's NO BETTER Way than the ability to impact their Pocketbook $$$. Period. Use the COR and CO....

This is the method I'd use to impact effective change. Sorry about the long post....

"It's All About the Benjamins"...- Puff Daddy (per wikipedia at least)

[Neoflyer]

Originally Posted by FlaNative

SmackIt: Thanks for bringing this up to our attention. Here in Florida we tried to make reservations for John Pennekamp State Park for the spring break in 2022. Reserve America was the concessionaire at that time. This park is very popular and hard to get into, to be fair; however Reserve America takes reservations beginning at 8am. We had previously scouted the sites we liked from previous visits and tried to make a reservation at exactly 8am, by watching the time on our computer, thinking that they are in synch with the networks. The sites we had picked out were reserved even after logging in before 8am, and sitting on 'go' to click on the 'Book it' button.
This occurred several times over the course of 3 days, trying to fit our schedule into a time that would make it worth our while (driving time and fuel). We eventually gave up trying. We even tried clicking on the 'Book It' button 10 seconds BEFORE 8am, thinking that their computers are on before the 8am opening time as advertised.
We wrote to the state park system to inquire why this was happening, and including the mention of some favoritism being done behind the scenes. Their answer was that there were no back door ways to manipulate the system and everyone was being treated the same.......RIGHT...!
Since then Florida has their own reservation system and to be fair, I haven't tried to get into John Pennekamp since our attempt, but even now I'm sure all is reserved. The point being that even by some state run reservation systems, there may be some sly operations going on. Obviously I don't want to paint a broad brush here of misuse or favoritism by ALL reservation systems, but things just don't add up and better policing is needed.

I also have found there doesn’t seem to be any way to click on “Send” at the right instant when trying to reserve at super popular campgrounds like John Pennekamp. Some have though bots might be the problem. I don’t know. What I do know is a lottery system for reservations might be the answer.