Frame Flexing on 5th Wheels with Lippert Frames

[B47]

Originally Posted by OldCoot

Boeing doesn't produce 37 frames in 8 hrs either. I am very familiar with the both tests and they are not practical in rv production methods and are far too expensive time wise.

I won't argue the points here,but I dis-agree with you on several points here.

[rockwood06]

Originally Posted by OldCoot

As B47 posted, it would be a side line business, but it is certainly not practical on a production line operation such as rv's. It is a diagnostic tool like x-ray and magnafluxing.

Yes I understand this would work as a side business, and on a production line it is out of the question, but I just wanted to point out the benefits and to ensure a more warm and fuzzy feeling about the manufacturing of such a major component of the RV if it could be done.
The only problem I see with a diagnostic tool is that it is needed when a problem has developed but not to prevent a problem from being past on like, when you sign the papers then having to deal with it. This is the way of the world I guess.

[Platokidd]

Originally Posted by B47

Thanks - as far as lack of regulations being a big part of RV problems, I'm not speaking for anyone else, but IMO the lack of Quality Control and Quality Assurance, if done in the manner that the FAA requires the U.S. Airlines and repair facilities to do it ( which is the background that I refer to), would go a long way in preventing a lot of RV problems we hear about here.

It would be nice IMO if the RV industry and manufacturers would adapt some sort of industry QC and QA standards ( some might say they already have such standards,but if they do, it's not working as good as it should).

QC in the rv industry ..... its really not all that good...Oh lets be honest ....That job not getting done!

[DDC]

37 frames in 8 hours with no QC does not seem like a great achievement, how many car bodies are put together in 8 hours and have constant QC, we should be interested in how much each unit costs to produce and how much of that is labour because QC is a labour cost and once implemented will become less.

[B47]

Originally Posted by rockwood06

Yes I understand this would work as a side business, and on a production line it is out of the question, but I just wanted to point out the benefits and to ensure a more warm and fuzzy feeling about the manufacturing of such a major component of the RV if it could be done.
The only problem I see with a diagnostic tool is that it is needed when a problem has developed but not to prevent a problem from being past on like, when you sign the papers then having to deal with it. This is the way of the world I guess.

The core and purpose of a Quality Control program is to ensure that a component or unit is being produced in accordance with (IAW) approved plans with approved materials and within the approved specifications.

The core and purpose of a Quality Assurance program is to ensure that the finished product that was produced under an QC program is,in fact, within its specifications and performs it's intended function - also conforms to Form,Fit, and Function.

What I'm saying here is any manufacturer, such as FR, could fit both a QA and QC program into its manufacturing process - such as making sure refrig fans don't squeal or the tires meets all specs - to ensure that both it's products and those supplied by its vendors meet certain standards before the RV rolls out the door.

There's much more to QA and QC than what I said here, but it could be done by FR.

[Platokidd]

Originally Posted by B47

The core and purpose of a Quality Control program is to ensure that a component or unit is being produced in accordance with (IAW) approved plans with approved materials and within the approved specifications.

The core and purpose of a Quality Assurance program is to ensure that the finished product that was produced under an QC program is,in fact, within its specifications and performs it's intended function - also conforms to Form,Fit, and Function.

What I'm saying here is any manufacturer, such as FR, could fit both a QA and QC program into its manufacturing process - such as making sure refrig fans don't squeal or the tires meets all specs - to ensure that both it's products and those supplied by its vendors meet certain standards before the RV rolls out the door.

There's much more to QA and QC than what I said here, but it could be done by FR.

Well put!!

[B47]

Originally Posted by Platokidd

Well put!!

Thanks - as a Plant Manager,you may have a good idea of what QA and QC means.

[OldCoot]

FR has that, it is just not to the rigid standards most of us in other industries have worked with nor could we afford their products if they were to our previous standards. Most of the major problems are with supplier products. Better receiving inspections are definitely needed for appliances, but there again, it comes with a cost. For the total number of FR products sold, I would guess they are not much difference with other mass produced items. Our automobiles sure have their share of problems also, note the amount of warranty work done at dealers, recalls, etc. I don't believe the auto mfgs even inspect tires to verify they meet specs as suggested.

[Batts-toy]

Originally Posted by B47

Just a thought/suggestion, but has anyone thought about setting up a mobile UltraSonic or Eddy Current lab and offer the service to FW and TT owners?

Whether your unit has or is showing cracks or an unit owner wants piece of mind, this might be a nice side line business - I'm certain some of you could learn how to perform UltraSonic or EC inspections or perhaps already know how to do it or do it already.

Just a thought and you shouldn't have to worry about some old noisy FAA inspector coming around asking to see your certification certificates.

Side line business, NOT ME, too much liability attached after the testing all looks good the customer has a receipt and/or certification from you goes out and pops a frame weld being stupid or whatever and your wrapped up in a lawsuit.

[B47]

Originally Posted by Batts-toy

Side line business, NOT ME, too much liability attached after the testing all looks good the customer has a receipt and/or certification from you goes out and pops a frame weld being stupid or whatever and your wrapped up in a lawsuit.

Yes that's something a person would have to consider.

[Weezer]

Originally Posted by BarryD0706

It's an answer to his statement: "I am hearing that all RV Manufactures are having issues with Lippert frames on 5th wheels."

Seems clear enough to me. The statement is false.

But you're not a "manufacturer" are you?

[Platokidd]

Originally Posted by OldCoot

FR has that, it is just not to the rigid standards most of us in other industries have worked with nor could we afford their products if they were to our previous standards. Most of the major problems are with supplier products. Better receiving inspections are definitely needed for appliances, but there again, it comes with a cost. For the total number of FR products sold, I would guess they are not much difference with other mass produced items. Our automobiles sure have their share of problems also, note the amount of warranty work done at dealers, recalls, etc. I don't believe the auto mfgs even inspect tires to verify they meet specs as suggested.

Rigid standards?? its not even half way decent imo. I think there putting the effort in but there just not very good at qa or qc. I wish my RV had the same quality as my Chevy truck, 0 trips in for warranty work. Some of the things I have seen first hand Im stunned by. I have become numb to shoddy workmanship / things that were installed broke /over screwing somethings and others no screws at all on and on.
Maybe its the people on the shop floor that just dont care if its broke or dont work its a job.
But its the RV industry ... there doing the best they can?? They can do better!
Maybe some foreign competition would make thing better. Worked for the auto industry in the 70's -80's

[camper1999]

I am happy with the quality of my trailer maybe it is just me. I think what everyone needs to remember that you bought a vehicle and a house, a house that gets shaken around for thousand of miles. I pretty much do the same amount of maintenance and repair on my trailer as I do on my house. I guess I just expect that. I do believe that there are horror stories but overall the people I have talked with at campground and on the road, people are happy with their RV's. Could the quality be better sure but that adds $$$$ and weight. Maybe if we can get more people to buy RV's then when can have our RV's built by robotics as our vehicles are now. Because before robotics the quality of vehicles sucked. Robotics do not have a bad day on the assembly line.

[VinceU]

Food for thought, don't the fractures display "after" the stress of towing come after the sale? Sometimes way after? Maybe inspections can be applied at set periods. Visiual indications or dye penetrant are simple and inexpensive and very conclusive. Eddy current and UT are very effective but require equipment and operators. In all cases access to the structure is the biggest hurdle.

[Platokidd]

Originally Posted by camper1999

I am happy with the quality of my trailer maybe it is just me. I think what everyone needs to remember that you bought a vehicle and a house, a house that gets shaken around for thousand of miles. I pretty much do the same amount of maintenance and repair on my trailer as I do on my house. I guess I just expect that. I do believe that there are horror stories but overall the people I have talked with at campground and on the road, people are happy with their RV's. Could the quality be better sure but that adds $$$$ and weight. Maybe if we can get more people to buy RV's then when can have our RV's built by robotics as our vehicles are now. Because before robotics the quality of vehicles sucked. Robotics do not have a bad day on the assembly line.

Think of the $$$ they could save doing the simple things right the 1st time at the factory.
Im fine with the normal maintenance, its shape of things when it leaves the factory that has huge room for improvement.

[OldCoot]

Originally Posted by Platokidd

Think of the $$$ they could save doing the simple things right the 1st time at the factory.
Im fine with the normal maintenance, its shape of things when it leaves the factory that has huge room for improvement.

The frame problems, if any, would not be found until after the units have been subjected to being towed and to get into the structure requires major disassembly of the trailer. It's just not as easy as you imply.

[Platokidd]

Originally Posted by OldCoot

The frame problems, if any, would not be found until after the units have been subjected to being towed and to get into the structure requires major disassembly of the trailer. It's just not as easy as you imply.

I went with the hijack of things into general over all $$,qc and qa. Thats what that post was in reply too.(camper1999post)

Frames would be a tough one for sure.
Have a good Thanksgiving
Carl

[AquaMan]

Would be an interesting experiment to see what the average person is willing to pay for "quality". Take 3-4 trailers of the same model with the same features, but varying degrees of build quality. Say the top end is built entirely by 4 top craftsmen, using top notch materials, who at the end sign their name on the build sheet and the unit runs through rigorous testing and comes with an extensive guarantee. On the other end, we have a unit, built on a line, using temps with no training, the cheapest possible products, absolutely no testing or QC at any time. The middle ground is a mixture of build quality, materials, testing, and price. For those who are paying 25k for a unit now, would you pay 50, 75, or 100k for the same knowing you got better materials, builds, and guarantees? If so, these units are out there, they are custom built, and they come with a price tag. Could, and possibly should, some things be better? Yes. Different brands within FR have different qualities about them, along with a different price associated. We have to remember they are building for the masses, and not for the individual, that job lies with a custom builder. When I took a factory tour, and saw what went into building these units from the ground up, I was impressed. I'm comfortable in knowing, that I got what I paid for. We can't expect a "built to order" Maserati Quattroporte, when we purchase a Chevrolet Malibu.

[OldCoot]

Originally Posted by AquaMan

Would be an interesting experiment to see what the average person is willing to pay for "quality". Take 3-4 trailers of the same model with the same features, but varying degrees of build quality. Say the top end is built entirely by 4 top craftsmen, using top notch materials, who at the end sign their name on the build sheet and the unit runs through rigorous testing and comes with an extensive guarantee. On the other end, we have a unit, built on a line, using temps with no training, the cheapest possible products, absolutely no testing or QC at any time. The middle ground is a mixture of build quality, materials, testing, and price. For those who are paying 25k for a unit now, would you pay 50, 75, or 100k for the same knowing you got better materials, builds, and guarantees? If so, these units are out there, they are custom built, and they come with a price tag. Could, and possibly should, some things be better? Yes. Different brands within FR have different qualities about them, along with a different price associated. We have to remember they are building for the masses, and not for the individual, that job lies with a custom builder. When I took a factory tour, and saw what went into building these units from the ground up, I was impressed. I'm comfortable in knowing, that I got what I paid for. We can't expect a "built to order" Maserati Quattroporte, when we purchase a Chevrolet Malibu.

Very well stated AquaMan. Ya'll did good!

[AquaMan]

Originally Posted by OldCoot

Very well stated AquaMan. Ya'll did good!

Thanks, you old coot!
PS: Have a safe trip south!