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Old 09-20-2021, 09:16 PM   #61
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Angry 2021 2509s Mini Lite

We have a 2021 mini lite that has the murphy bed in it. After maybe 25 nights, the footboard fell right off when I went to put the bed up. It was held together with staples, not a screw to be seen. That's the cheapest sloppiest work I have ever seen!
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Old 09-20-2021, 09:42 PM   #62
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Can anyone else see the writing on the wall here? Thousands being sold to newbies, no idea the problems they have and will encounter. And the expenses and payment and storage and insurance . Now I canít find an open campground? There are going to be so many of these hitting the market as get me outta this deal fast, that I see Indiana not having help problems in about two to five years. They are going to be sweeping the floors and looking for something to do. Too bad for this industry.
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Old 09-21-2021, 04:14 AM   #63
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I would be sick to spend all that money and then to have so many items requiring attention and have it sit at a dealer for weeks/months waiting for parts/repairs!
I'm trying to figure out how much land/space does it take to store all the units in for repair until they actually work on them? And what business model do they use that shows storing for months on end is profitable.
My camper was at the dealer for 5 months and they only worked on it for 10 billable hours. How does that work?
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Old 09-21-2021, 05:58 AM   #64
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I'm trying to figure out how much land/space does it take to store all the units in for repair until they actually work on them? And what business model do they use that shows storing for months on end is profitable.
My camper was at the dealer for 5 months and they only worked on it for 10 billable hours. How does that work?
It works because they aren't paying the depreciation and in some cases interest. The end use is.
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Old 09-21-2021, 06:34 AM   #65
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Exactly, whereís the accountability for dealers? Itís my understanding that they can charge PDI fixes back to the manufacturer.

Itís long been said (pre-2020) that RVs are 80% compete when they get to the dealers and itís up to that dealer to finish whatís not finished or done wrong.

Dealers are as guilty as the next for passing these crap units onto the customers.
Dealers are paid up front on every unit to inspect and repair the units when they get them on the lot, they just don't do it.Then they charge the customer several hundred dollars to do a pre-delivery inspection, which finds nothing. Then when you find a problem the dealer jacks you around for months to get it fixed. Do the manufactures have problems, yes, but the dealers are a large part of the problem. Many have gotten way to large, like General RV, in multiple states.
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Old 09-21-2021, 06:58 AM   #66
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General RV is one of the worst for service and sales

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General RV, a dealer with dealerships in 7 states, has built a pre-delivery inspection facility in Bristol, IN. Hopefully this will help their business and the quality our rvís.

https://www.generalrv.com/about/rv-inspection-facility
Since General RV has a terrible reputation for service and sales, I sincerely doubt it. I won't go there.
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Old 09-21-2021, 08:37 AM   #67
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Let's hope they fix this issue. I've had my new TT for 2 seasons now and not been able to enjoy it due to all the defects. Even with bad help, doesn't excuse the poor quality of the products used. I'm on my third mattress as it only lasts a couple nites before flattening and my sleeping in a hole! Still no working fridge, on my second. 2nd awning all wrinkled and the door doesn't open or close mid day, even in the shade. Even the so called wood grain is pealing off the kitchen cabinets! Never should have sold my 20 year old unit! No more FR TT's for me! 24 defects so far and the dealer couldn't care less, they got their money and they get paid to fix it, or try at least.
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Old 09-21-2021, 08:38 AM   #68
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Dealers are paid up front on every unit to inspect and repair the units when they get them on the lot, they just don't do it.Then they charge the customer several hundred dollars to do a pre-delivery inspection, which finds nothing. Then when you find a problem the dealer jacks you around for months to get it fixed. Do the manufactures have problems, yes, but the dealers are a large part of the problem. Many have gotten way to large, like General RV, in multiple states.

Thank you
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Old 09-21-2021, 09:25 AM   #69
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Back in the 1970's, Detroit's big 3 produced poor quality cars. American consumers defected to Japan to purchase excellent quality Hondas and Toyotas.
History repeats apparently and perhaps it is time to move RV production to another country. Sad commentary on the ethics of the American worker.
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Old 09-21-2021, 10:28 AM   #70
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Perhaps part of the "Elkhart problem" is their ability to hire 15-year old Amish high school dropouts, which is legal in Indiana. They are brought in by labor contractors, who do the actual hiring. Would you want your 15-year old son building your new sticks-and-bricks house for you? Not likely, but that's what you are getting in an Indiana-built RV. So much for "Amish craftsmanship."

The reason that Western RV manufacturers--Lance, Northwood, Adventurer, etc.,--have a reputation for better quality and higher prices may just be because they not only have better QC, but also better child labor and truancy laws!
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Old 09-21-2021, 10:35 AM   #71
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When these things are assembled with staples instead of screws, how can they not fall apart? That method it tells you everything about management. Make it faster than fast. On top of that parts might not fit or align up well so the worker canít make a secure connection.

The worker turnover rate might be high because of the high pressure production rate. So that makes it hard to keep skilled experienced workers.

Now with so many first timers buying, they are finding out RVís donít have the quality of cars and trucks. Some think buying an extended warranty will help, but donít realize the wait for repairs are again not like the automotive industry. So they might get frustrated and sell their RV.

In a couple years thereís going to be a ton of 2020-2022 RVís with little use with potential problems.
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Old 09-21-2021, 10:45 AM   #72
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Absolutely

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Itís not just the manufactures or the dealers that are to blame for the poor quality and haphazard units being sold. Itís the CONSUMERíS that are ultimately the ones to place blame on the most. Why? Because we all know that a ďRecreation vehicleĒ has ďits problemsĒ and people have become ingrained with the beliefs that owning a RV comes with having questionable quality control; but yet we as the consumer still go out and buy the junk trailer anywaysÖ.. and then come to sites like this to complain about the junk quality trailer. If the consumers start rejecting the crappy quality, and then start NOT buying the trailers or RVís then the dealers and the manufacturers will start getting the drift and wise up. If we buy junk then the manufacturer and dealer feel and believe that the consumer doesnít care enough about crappy quality to walk away and will buy it anyways.
Shopping for two years, but will not buy the junk, unfortunately Iím in the minority.
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Old 09-21-2021, 11:13 AM   #73
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Sad commentary on the ethics of the American worker.
I think not.

More like sad commentary on RV Manufacturing management. They buy the cheapest components they can find, and push the "American Worker" to get units out the door as fast as they can, using the methods specified by management (ie: Staples instead of screws, etc, etc). I toured a plant in Indiana that incentivizes workers by letting them go home as soon as they get x number of units out the door.
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Old 09-21-2021, 11:19 AM   #74
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I think not.

More like sad commentary on RV Manufacturing management. They buy the cheapest components they can find, and push the "American Worker" to get units out the door as fast as they can, using the methods specified by management (ie: Staples instead of screws, etc, etc). I toured a plant in Indiana that incentivizes workers by letting them go home as soon as they get x number of units out the door.
They should incentivize workers based on quality. Of course for that you need a good quality organization and honest accounting.

Having experience in high quality manufacturing (Motorola Sig Sigma process development), I'd say there are weaknesses in the RV industry at many levels. There are design issues. Component quality issues. Workmanship issues. Quality control lapses.
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Old 09-21-2021, 11:34 AM   #75
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My Epro though I like it always has something falling apart. I always have a practice after towing to shine the flashlight inside at where water lines hook up to check for leaks (which I have had), looking for screws loose etc. which find off and on. Just part of it. First month with it, found part of the couch had a spot that thought was just cheap padding and thought was feeling a support bar. Dug into one day from underneath and found a large Stanley screwdriver wedged in there. Someone did that on purpose. Agree with others how much time does it take to vacuum out debris as you go along.

Would think the builders would figure it out that quality will make them more money in the long run. Worked with a railcar builder in my job and they hired some QA people from Toyota to put the quality mindset into their production. Long term they were making a better product and actually building more units in the same time. Took them awhile but said worth it in the long run. How it should work. Learn some Six Sigma processes. The industry is being short sighted.
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Old 09-21-2021, 11:36 AM   #76
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This was referenced in a recent RV Travel newsletter. A most interesting read.

https://www.rvtravel.com/wp-content/...ompilation.pdf
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Old 09-21-2021, 11:48 AM   #77
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This was referenced in a recent RV Travel newsletter. A most interesting read.

https://www.rvtravel.com/wp-content/...ompilation.pdf
The interesting thing about that paper is people look at those as the good old days and the RV industry has increased sales since then.
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Old 09-21-2021, 11:53 AM   #78
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They should incentivize workers based on quality. Of course for that you need a good quality organization and honest accounting.

Having experience in high quality manufacturing (Motorola Sig Sigma process development), I'd say there are weaknesses in the RV industry at many levels. There are design issues. Component quality issues. Workmanship issues. Quality control lapses.
Exactly !! I was a Six Sigma Black Belt for GE. Maybe that's why it bugs me so much. I Know it can be fixed, and I know it doesn't necessarily mean higher cost. Many times fixes are easy, low/no cost, and make a huge difference.
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Old 09-21-2021, 12:07 PM   #79
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The interesting thing about that paper is people look at those as the good old days and the RV industry has increased sales since then.
Yes..."same as it ever was". I found it interesting that what was true in 2016 (before we bought our first trailer) seems to be more true today.
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Old 09-21-2021, 03:13 PM   #80
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Personally, I've seen the same issue in other industries. The wages paid are going to involve people who are being trained on the job, and they're required to work at a certain pace. If one guy gets stuck, and it's holding things up, they can't spend much time to correct things without getting in trouble, so a lot of TLAR gets applied.
Now the same unskilled worker can get a fast food job where everything is laid out step by step, making things really hard to screw up, yet those same type of employees still manage to do so. My point is they can make nearly as much not getting their hands dirty at a dirt simple job.
All of the hype top pay these fast food workers 15.00 for their entry level job hasn't helped any industry. Some of the company drivers hauling 80,000 pound rigs on the freeway next to a family mini van aren't making much more than that.
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