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Old 09-21-2021, 03:20 PM   #81
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RV manufacturers:

1) Effectively have a monopoly

2) Have a captive audience

3) Have quashed the enactment of RV Lemon Laws via lobbying (read $$$$$)

Three strikes and the consumer is out.

Of course it isn't quite this simple...please read that PDF doc I linked to in my earlier post. The author does a great job of laying it all out.
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Old 09-21-2021, 03:26 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by PodGeek View Post
This was referenced in a recent RV Travel newsletter. A most interesting read.



https://www.rvtravel.com/wp-content/...ompilation.pdf
The author and editor closed his website back in June, 2019, before the Covid RV boom:

https://rvbusiness.com/rv-daily-repo...-down-june-21/

A Voice in the Wilderness has been silenced.
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Old 09-21-2021, 03:37 PM   #83
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The author and editor closed his website back in June, 2019, before the Covid RV boom:

https://rvbusiness.com/rv-daily-repo...-down-june-21/

A Voice in the Wilderness has been silenced.
As was pointed out in the RV Travel newsletter:

Quote:
The fact is, only about 20 percent of our revenue is from advertising. The smartest thing we ever did was ask our readers years ago to help support us through voluntary subscriptions. That revenue, it turns out, helps ensure we can keep publishing no matter what pressure is applied to muzzle us. That happened to my friend Greg Gerber a few years ago after he published his brilliant series, “The RV Death Spiral.” Greg’s website RVDailyReport.com was supported entirely by industry advertising which he lost after the series ran. His important voice was silenced – in my opinion, a huge loss to the RVing community.
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Old 09-21-2021, 04:52 PM   #84
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The only real quality control issue we've had was sawdust that was left on the bathroom ceiling that filters down out of the ceiling when we tow the trailer any distance.
That probably isn't leftover sawdust. More than likely its new sawdust from all the moving, flexing and grinding that goes on while on the road. That's been my experience.
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Old 09-21-2021, 05:11 PM   #85
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I think not.

More like sad commentary on RV Manufacturing management. They buy the cheapest components they can find, and push the "American Worker" to get units out the door as fast as they can, using the methods specified by management (ie: Staples instead of screws, etc, etc). I toured a plant in Indiana that incentivizes workers by letting them go home as soon as they get x number of units out the door.
Sounds like a reason for a labor union to step in.
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Old 09-21-2021, 05:29 PM   #86
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Sounds like a reason for a labor union to step in.
And then they'll go the way of the US built major home appliance, and for the same reason.
Expect the price point to go way up either way.

No way can they sell stuff this cheap and have high quality.
My motorhome was sold to me nearly fully loaded for little over double what Ford sells the chassis cabs to the fleet user for. The only option not included is an inverter.
I didn't have the problems a lot of people had, but my dealer was useless for taking care of anything. Forest River themselves handled things nicely.
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Old 09-21-2021, 05:55 PM   #87
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No way can they sell stuff this cheap and have high quality.
That's what Mopar, Ford, and GM thought back in the 80's, until Toyota and Honda took them to the woodshed.
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Old 09-21-2021, 06:10 PM   #88
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That's what Mopar, Ford, and GM thought back in the 80's, until Toyota and Honda took them to the woodshed.
Yet, no one can come up with a scenario, for the RV Industry, that recreates what happened back then.
I completely agree that something needs to change but I don't see overseas competition happening. The only regions in the world, that have any type of RVing community, are Europe and Australia. And their numbers are puny compared to North America. And it isn't cost effective to ship them over the Atlantic or the Pacific.
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Old 09-21-2021, 06:27 PM   #89
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That's what Mopar, Ford, and GM thought back in the 80's, until Toyota and Honda took them to the woodshed.
Those companies have to stay union, unlike their foreign competition, which is my point exactly.
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Old 09-21-2021, 09:17 PM   #90
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That probably isn't leftover sawdust. More than likely its new sawdust from all the moving, flexing and grinding that goes on while on the road. That's been my experience.
Bummer. I have a garage wall that generates big sawdust. Pulling the garage side panels off this fall. And see what gives. The wall is flimsy. Feels like cardboard. Letting the garage door shut firmly and the garage wall rattles the thermostat radically changing temp setting. That gets old.
The salon interior and garage panels are not damaged. The area immediately above the garage/salon door (2'?) is rattling loose. Door's located slightly street side off center.
I have a couple inches of wall thickness to play with. Trailer isn't weight bound. Quite sure I can X that wall and considerably improve the wall strength. Or sandwich 1/8" aircraft ply between the original and a glued and screwed sub wall.
My concern is over improving the wall and creating an 'engineered' hard spot in the structure. The wall is centered over the rear axle. Could be worse. The trailer skin shows no signs of flexing.
Hoping to find roof structure intact? Whatever it takes. Gotta be repaired. Click image for larger version

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Old 09-21-2021, 10:35 PM   #91
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Sounds like a reason for a labor union to step in.
A union is not going to fix what is essentially a management problem. Unions would just make things even worse.
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Old 09-22-2021, 04:14 AM   #92
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A union is not going to fix what is essentially a management problem. Unions would just make things even worse.
I'm not a huge fan of unions; but they have their place in the market.

Basic business models show that once the return on $$ reaches a certain point others enter the market to compete. There are too many $$ being made not to invite others to the party!

Second point - everything revolves around incentives. People want campers and are willing to buy what's available. Campgrounds are getting bought up and consolidated with dramatic increase in price to end users. Change the incentives and you get different results.
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Old 09-22-2021, 06:07 AM   #93
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Sounds like a reason for a labor union to step in.
Keep in mind those American made cars in the 60's and 70's with quality problems were built with union labor.

I think part of the problem is that even though there are a couple large RV conglomerates they consist of many smaller factories. All building many models. If a company like FR decided to make a single factory that built all their 25' to 30' TTs they could ramp production in a true production line and improve quality. They would still have to build the quality in through better designs, quality parts, and a quality mentality throughout the organization.
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Old 09-22-2021, 08:17 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by AlaskaErik View Post
A union is not going to fix what is essentially a management problem. Unions would just make things even worse.
Unions don't care about quality control. They care about maximizing the hours to do any tasks. They would only hurt efficiency and cost of units while making it worse for the consumer.
I'd challenge any pro-union person to explain how they would make any difference in quality control. Be specific.
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Old 09-22-2021, 08:35 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by mjbenedict View Post
Unions don't care about quality control. They care about maximizing the hours to do any tasks. They would only hurt efficiency and cost of units while making it worse for the consumer.

I'd challenge any pro-union person to explain how they would make any difference in quality control. Be specific.


Agreed! Also the cost would also double if unions were involved in the assembly of RVs.
The manufacturer needs to set standards and inspect every RV before leaving the plant. But the vendors need to inspect and report damage rvs when they arrive, not wait until the PDI of the new owners. In some cases the vendors should refuse delivery of the RV and sent it back to the factory.
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Old 09-22-2021, 09:30 AM   #96
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Agreed! Also the cost would also double if unions were involved in the assembly of RVs.
The manufacturer needs to set standards and inspect every RV before leaving the plant. But the vendors need to inspect and report damage rvs when they arrive, not wait until the PDI of the new owners. In some cases the vendors should refuse delivery of the RV and sent it back to the factory.
Not saying you are wrong but there are some logistics to consider. If they use a third party delivery as many RV manufacturers do...who is going to make the delivery service take the RV back? That driver may have other loads/contracts booked elsewhere and cannot take it back. Then what happens? Who pays for the return shipping?

What happens if a dealer can get no product on his lot to sell?
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Old 09-22-2021, 09:41 AM   #97
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RV Lemon laws, people.

Good enough for autos, good enough for RVs?

Of course, prices will go up. TANSTAAFL.
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Old 09-23-2021, 02:43 PM   #98
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It works because they aren't paying the depreciation and in some cases interest. The end use is.

They also aren't paying for the gas/ tolls/ wear and tear on tow vehicles making trips back and forth either. I had about $800.00 in costs to bring my Grand Design in for warranty work over the course of a year.
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Old 09-23-2021, 02:50 PM   #99
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A union is not going to fix what is essentially a management problem. Unions would just make things even worse.

As a former Union employee for two different large employers I can tell you a couple things. First, I've never seen Unions control the time it takes to complete a job. Second, management in this country is lacking in qualified people and is often blind to the long term effects of the policies to increase short term profit.
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Old 09-23-2021, 03:01 PM   #100
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Keep in mind those American made cars in the 60's and 70's with quality problems were built with union labor.

I think part of the problem is that even though there are a couple large RV conglomerates they consist of many smaller factories. All building many models. If a company like FR decided to make a single factory that built all their 25' to 30' TTs they could ramp production in a true production line and improve quality. They would still have to build the quality in through better designs, quality parts, and a quality mentality throughout the organization.
Honestly, I thought this was happening to a certain extent. An example is the Forester and Sunseeker. They are basically the same unit, and it doesn't seem like those of us who bought these are having as many problems.
Hopefully in time this will expand to the towables too. There are too many different models for them to standardize production, so they're all "one offs" for the most part.

I'm not much for these mega mergers, but when we bought, the dealers were all touting the cash infusion by Warren Buffett, as a reason their quality has gone up.
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