Soft start? Hard start?

wrvond · 09-01-2018, 01:05 PM

What's the difference? Do I need either one?

Camper: 2014 Coachmen Catalina 253RKS (30 amp service) with 15k air conditioner.
Generator(s): Westinghouse iGen 2200 (1800 watts running) and iGen 2500 (2200 watts running) with parallel cable.

I have not tried to run my camper on the generators singly or paralleled yet. I imagine that if I turn "Eco mode" off on both units, they'll run my camper just fine. However, I am confused over the need for, and use of, the soft start and hard start capacitors for air conditioners.
My AC is a Coleman Mach Airxcel model 48254C966, and I have read it may already have a soft start capacitor, but I really couldn't tell you if it does or not.

My Progressive Industries EMS-HW30C panel indicates the air conditioner draws 15 amps at start up and runs at 13 amps.

katkt · 09-01-2018, 01:17 PM

The AC units typically require a very high starting amperage, because everything turns on at once. If the genny is in eco mode, the big surge won't give it enough time to idle up, and it throws the overload on the genny.
I just recently installed a Micro Air Easy Start 364(soft start kit) on my 15k unit. The fan comes on immediately when you turn the AC on, and the compressor sort of fades in, after about 10 seconds. This avoids the big start up surge that oft times trips the overload on a genny.
In the end, the 15k was fine starting on my 2200 with eco turned off(and even on although it was a pretty good hiccup), but the 2200 by itself, wouldn't produce enough voltage to run my 15k(Coleman/Airxcel), without the compressor overheating from low voltage, and cutting off. When it s running, the AC by itself, was pulling north of 17 amps.
Everything works fine, with my 2000 and 2200 in parallel.

I'm thinking about installing one of the Power Saver 11k units in my bedroom, so I can run it off of one genny at night if needed.

wrvond · 09-01-2018, 01:32 PM

I forgot to mention that the Progressive Industries EMS has a delay setting of 10 seconds or 120 seconds (IIRC). I set mine at 120 seconds on the assumption that I don't have a built in soft start.
Would that delay serve the same function as a soft start?

When the AC isn't running, the camper normally draws 3 amps, so the AC kicks it up to 18 amps when it kicks on.

ScottBrownstein · 09-01-2018, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wrvond

I forgot to mention that the Progressive Industries EMS has a delay setting of 10 seconds or 120 seconds (IIRC). I set mine at 120 seconds on the assumption that I don't have a built in soft start.
Would that delay serve the same function as a soft start?

When the AC isn't running, the camper normally draws 3 amps, so the AC kicks it up to 18 amps when it kicks on.

Nope, not the same thing. That is the delay before applying power. The AC start issue happens after applying power. Most transfer switches also have a 15 or 30 second delay built in.

katkt · 09-01-2018, 03:09 PM

You have to have a pretty decent tester, but some of what I’ve seen, shows the spike in the neighborhood of 40 amps, for a 15k unit. It’s only for a split second, but that’s what causes the problem. With the Micro Air, that gets reduced to less the 20, because of the way the soft start works.
If you search the appliance section of the forum, you’ll find some YouTube’s. Or google Micro Air Easy Start and you’ll get some hits.

rsdata · 09-01-2018, 03:31 PM

Quote:

What's the difference? Do I need either one?

Hard start... stock AC
Soft start... modified AC uses less current at startup
modified AC... maybe using $10 add-on capacitor OR $350 Micro-start system... advantage here to the Micro-start system

Do you need one? Well if you have never used the genny's on your trailer, you will have to do this on a hot day and start your AC... not only let it run and start once, BUT let the AC cycle a number of times and then you can answer this question.

cavie · 09-01-2018, 03:38 PM

As an electrician, I don't see the need to use an EMS of surge protector on a generator. but that's just me. They are designed for Power companies and Pedestals. But I guess if you got 'em use 'em.

wrvond · 09-01-2018, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cavie

As an electrician, I don't see the need to use an EMS of surge protector on a generator. but that's just me. They are designed for Power companies and Pedestals. But I guess if you got 'em use 'em.

I had a portable one once, but left it on one of those pedestals that it was made for. Now I have one hardwired into the camper so I won't be leaving money hanging on another power pedestal in the future!

Just hooked up the small generator and discovered right away I have to bypass the EMS because the generators are not grounded so the EMS refuses to allow power to the camper.

To make a long story short, the only way I can get the AC to run is to parallel both generators with Eco mode off.

Makes sense when you figure the 2500 watt generator is only putting out about 18 running amps and the camper runs at 18 amps with the AC on and 21 amps with AC starting up.

rsdata · 09-01-2018, 04:39 PM

Quote:

I have to bypass the EMS because the generators are not grounded so the EMS refuses to allow power to the camper.

google Neutral Bonding plug to make your 15 amp plugs work normally without having to bypass... many youtube videos also

Big Vic · 09-02-2018, 12:55 PM

I also have a 15K Dometic A/C which would not start with my Honda EU2000 inverter generator, but it ran fine on a 30 amp shore power source. The start up surge is likely more than 2-3X the running amperage, which the Honda cannot handle.

I then tried a hard start capacitor ($10) which did not help. I think these are most useful when your original A/C capacitor is starting to fail and it then gives it an assist, but typically pulls a lot of surge amperage at start up of the compressor. Some studies have shown that a hard start capacitor actually increases the amps drawn at start up.

I then tried the Easy Start ($300) which will allow my A/C to run on my Honda 2000, but I cannot run much else. If I want to run the A/C at the same time as other things, I need to parallel with a second Honda 2000 or get a bigger output generator.

Personally, while running my A/C, I prefer running the two Hondas together in eco-mode, because the gennys run more quietly than one Honda running at max capacity, also allows use of other appliances, and are a lot easier to move around.

Walholler · 09-02-2018, 04:30 PM

I have a 15K Dometic AC unit and two Honda 2200 generators running in parallel. I can run the AC with both generators in Eco mode, when the AC compressor starts the generators will both speed up for 3 to 4 seconds and then return to Eco. The AC does not have a soft start on it.

rlh1957 · 09-02-2018, 07:19 PM

What recommendations from those who have installed start kits on rooftop AC's? Mine is 15K AC.

rsdata · 09-02-2018, 07:54 PM

Quote:

What recommendations from those who have installed start kits on rooftop AC's? Mine is 15K AC.

Start with the $10 fix...

http://www.forestriverforums.com/for...nit-94386.html

I know you said yours was 15K but No difference
here from Amazon

IndianKen · 09-02-2018, 11:56 PM

I am pretty sure the Neutral bonding plug for the 15/20 amp plugs fixes the 30 amp plug too. Some generator/inverters are hard wired like this.

fella10 · 09-03-2018, 02:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndianKen

I am pretty sure the Neutral bonding plug for the 15/20 amp plugs fixes the 30 amp plug too. ....

the first video appears to show that you are correct, the guy has a Progressive Industries 30A EMS plugged into the 30A plug on the generator and he demonstrates what the Neutral Bonding Plug does, ... the 2nd video shows how to make one, ... I've never heard of this before, so thank y'all for mentioning it, ... since I've recently installed a hardwired EMS, I'll need to check my Champion 3400 to see if it needs that plug, if so, very easy to make, ... again, thanks ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-bTLdMjuqU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2GqbM0JxlM&t=512s

fella10 · 09-03-2018, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cavie

As an electrician, I don't see the need to use an EMS of surge protector on a generator. but that's just me. They are designed for Power companies and Pedestals. But I guess if you got 'em use 'em.

I suppose the EMS isn't necessary when on a generator, and if your EMS is a portable one, then easy solution, don't use it while on the gen, ... but a hardwired unit like many of us have is a different situation, ... if our gens. have open ground, the EMS isn't going to let any power thru to the trailer, but if you're an electrician you know all that better than I do, cause I'm not, .... so for us hardwired folks, we gotta do something, ... and I guess the two easiest routes to take is bypass the EMS somehow or make the open ground fault go away, ... today I made a Neutral Bonding Plug, which was absolutely just too easy to do, ... it did make my open ground fault go away, so now, it's on to the next mod, ...

fella10 · 09-03-2018, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wrvond

......... I have to bypass the EMS because the generators are not grounded so the EMS refuses to allow power to the camper.
..............

as mentioned in other posts, the Neutral Bonding plug is a simple fix to the open ground problem, .... today I checked my gen and yep, open ground, ... made the NB plug from an old plug I haven't used in years, .... very simple, see youtube videos above, ...

in pics below, one orange light= open ground, .... two orange lights= all is well, ... 30A and 15/20A all check good when the Neutral Bonding plug is plugged in ......

ProAngler · 09-04-2018, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wrvond

What's the difference? Do I need either one?

Camper: 2014 Coachmen Catalina 253RKS (30 amp service) with 15k air conditioner.
Generator(s): Westinghouse iGen 2200 (1800 watts running) and iGen 2500 (2200 watts running) with parallel cable.

I have not tried to run my camper on the generators singly or paralleled yet. I imagine that if I turn "Eco mode" off on both units, they'll run my camper just fine. However, I am confused over the need for, and use of, the soft start and hard start capacitors for air conditioners.
My AC is a Coleman Mach Airxcel model 48254C966, and I have read it may already have a soft start capacitor, but I really couldn't tell you if it does or not.

My Progressive Industries EMS-HW30C panel indicates the air conditioner draws 15 amps at start up and runs at 13 amps.

I ran two 2300 watt Ryobi parallel and still had issues overloading because the smaler units although in parallel have enough watts they cannot ramp up quick enough to start ac or microwave without overloading. Dont buy into all the bull crap videos on you tube. buy a 3500 + watt generator

katkt · 09-04-2018, 05:39 PM

Sorry. Redundant.

RangeMaggotBob · 09-05-2018, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cavie

As an electrician, I don't see the need to use an EMS of surge protector on a generator. but that's just me. They are designed for Power companies and Pedestals. But I guess if you got 'em use 'em.

Being a master, maybe you could tell me. Our master electrician at work told me those soft starts significantly decrease the longevity of the AC unit. What do you think?

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