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Old 04-29-2022, 11:30 AM   #1
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Some spice for the Diesel vs Gasoline engine discussion

My local Fire Department recently sent out a "We're doing a great job" mailing that they often do when softening up the community prior to a Levy Election.

In this mailing they told how they were replacing their ambulances with gasoline powered vehicles "to reduce the exposure of employees to carcinogens".

Seems like there has been extensive ongoing research on Diesel powered engines vs gasoline engines regarding Lung Cancer.

Here's an article that shows some results:

https://academic.oup.com/aje/article...33?login=false

Quote:
These results provide some limited support for the hypothesis of an excess lung cancer risk due to diesel exhaust but no support for an increase in risk due to gasoline exhaust.
It's clear that diesel engine exhaust contains more small particulate emissions than gasoline. Is it a big health hazard? I guess it depends on how much more one is exposed to diesel exhaust than others.

It also brings up the question of how much of an issue is diesel exhaust after DEF has been burned in an effort to reduce the particulate emissions?

Like I said, some "spice" for the discussion
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Old 04-29-2022, 08:13 PM   #2
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It also brings up the question of how much of an issue is diesel exhaust after DEF has been burned in an effort to reduce the particulate emissions?
DEF used is not for particulate emissions....Thats what the DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter) is used for.

Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF) is a fluid (urea) that is injected into the SCR (Selective Catalytic Reduction). DEF is transformed in the SCR with heat to cause a chemical reaction that converts nitrogen oxides (NOx) into nitrogen, water and carbon dioxide (CO2).
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Old 04-29-2022, 08:33 PM   #3
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Want to know about your gasoline ? Look up B-E-T-X
Benzene, Ethyl Benzine, Toluene, Xylene. 4 of the major components of gasoline.
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Old 04-29-2022, 08:49 PM   #4
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DEF used is not for particulate emissions....Thats what the DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter) is used for.

Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF) is a fluid (urea) that is injected into the SCR (Selective Catalytic Reduction). DEF is transformed in the SCR with heat to cause a chemical reaction that converts nitrogen oxides (NOx) into nitrogen, water and carbon dioxide (CO2).
Thank You for clarifying. I'm not into diesel engines as they're built today. Had some experience in the Army (mid 60's) with Continental V-12's and GM Detroit Diesels but absolutely NO emission controls. Both created their own smoke screens
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Old 04-29-2022, 10:19 PM   #5
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My local Fire Department recently sent out a "We're doing a great job" mailing that they often do when softening up the community prior to a Levy Election.

In this mailing they told how they were replacing their ambulances with gasoline powered vehicles "to reduce the exposure of employees to carcinogens".

Seems like there has been extensive ongoing research on Diesel powered engines vs gasoline engines regarding Lung Cancer.

Here's an article that shows some results:

https://academic.oup.com/aje/article...33?login=false



It's clear that diesel engine exhaust contains more small particulate emissions than gasoline. Is it a big health hazard? I guess it depends on how much more one is exposed to diesel exhaust than others.

It also brings up the question of how much of an issue is diesel exhaust after DEF has been burned in an effort to reduce the particulate emissions?

Like I said, some "spice" for the discussion


I read the article not only is the formula to make the diesel or gas changed. They include exposure starting in 1949 meaning at least. The subjects were born in 1930 - 1935. I’m not sure on the validity of the research
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Old 04-29-2022, 11:05 PM   #6
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Ed no purpose. All the pollution issues in Ohio were along the

Article is really meaningless today.

Same experts insisted on building elaborate smog testing facilities in Ohio. Get all them old clunkers off the road.

After a significant test period it became obvious the testing service did nothing!

All areas of serious pollution were along Interstate 75 and 71. Diesel trucks were the issue. You would then assume converting the diesel truck fleet to propane was the ticket to success. But, the push is for electric cars. Cars were not the problem. Most were pretty clean.

Who is in charge?

Have the inmates taken over the asylum?
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Old 04-30-2022, 04:55 AM   #7
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It's similar to the claims of "All Electric". What does that really mean? It's clean, if you ignore the details. https://waareeess.com/lithium-ion-battery-recycling/

Never a mention of anything negative, so it's clean. It's called following the Consensus science. But I still haven't found consensus to be part of any Scientific Process. But questioning the hypothesis is part of the scientific process.

Like the current AquaHot rage, I understand that it feels good to have hydronic heat and a sizeable supply of hot water. But it also requires burning diesel, to supplement the available electric heat. Which is cleaner ? Diesel or LP? Those pesky trade offs. Nothing is free. But it's all academic.
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Old 04-30-2022, 08:39 AM   #8
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Thank You for clarifying. I'm not into diesel engines as they're built today. Had some experience in the Army (mid 60's) with Continental V-12's and GM Detroit Diesels but absolutely NO emission controls. Both created their own smoke screens
Those Detroit engines were two stroke non turbo. When turbo chargers with the aneroid control came along they were much better, especially the four stroke engines.
Those particulate studies have been around for at least fifty years. CARB is loaded with scientists mostly from UCLA. Some got their PHD from the UPS store online.
Several years ago one was hired with a real PHD and his study showed that Diesel particulates in the U.S. amounted to 5% of the total and the highest amount from one source was 30% which came from China. Other larger sources were coal burning in the U.S. volcanoes, agricultural burning and forest fires.
Interesting thing on the forest fires is the U.S. forest service study shows the forests are ten time as dense by number of trees than in 1940. Oh and that guy who did the study for CARB was terminated. Obviously it didn’t fit their agenda. With a billion dollar annual budget what will they get their revenue from? Checking electric vehicles tire wear pollution?
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Old 04-30-2022, 08:57 AM   #9
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The study quoted is pretty much meaningless. A lot has changed in both gasoline and diesel exhaust emissions since the 1940 to 1970 period of the study. Besides the conclusion was not very positive that diesel emissions caused cancer. I would think that particulates could have some effect, but today we have particulate filters. Growing up around the steel mills of Pa., I'm thinking I got far more particulates from the mills than diesel engines. If you think about the time period, diesels were not in very heavy usage except for very large trucks. Exposure would be pretty limited.

I think the local fire Dept thought they needed to justify new ambulances, and this is what they came up with.

Gasoline is certainly cheaper. I have both gasoline vehicles and a diesel truck. If you need higher torque for towing, and can afford the higher initial price, get a diesel. The diesel will also last longer and depreciate much less. If you are worried about lung cancer, stop smoking and move to the country.

I'm doubting you will see any difference in lung cancer rates in your area due to the fire departments new vehicles, but it may make some people feel good.
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Old 04-30-2022, 09:12 AM   #10
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The study quoted is pretty much meaningless. A lot has changed in both gasoline and diesel exhaust emissions since the 1940 to 1970 period of the study. Besides the conclusion was not very positive that diesel emissions caused cancer. I would think that particulates could have some effect, but today we have particulate filters. Growing up around the steel mills of Pa., I'm thinking I got far more particulates from the mills than diesel engines. If you think about the time period, diesels were not in very heavy usage except for very large trucks. Exposure would be pretty limited.

I think the local fire Dept thought they needed to justify new ambulances, and this is what they came up with.

Gasoline is certainly cheaper. I have both gasoline vehicles and a diesel truck. If you need higher torque for towing, and can afford the higher initial price, get a diesel. The diesel will also last longer and depreciate much less. If you are worried about lung cancer, stop smoking and move to the country.

I'm doubting you will see any difference in lung cancer rates in your area due to the fire departments new vehicles, but it may make some people feel good.
That is true. Th reduction in lung cancer rates is the reason stated by CARB when they passed the diesel truck regulations for 2018 and the lead scientist was caught with the phony PHD. But they said they still believe in their science. He was demoted but not fired. I think if all these so called pollution improvements work as they say then my health insurance rates should be dropping.
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Old 04-30-2022, 10:26 AM   #11
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.......
I think the local fire Dept thought they needed to justify new ambulances, and this is what they came up with...........

I'm doubting you will see any difference in lung cancer rates in your area due to the fire departments new vehicles, but it may make some people feel good.
Valid point, otherwise they'd be more concerned about the diesel powered Ladder and Pump Trucks which run constantly for hours at a time on the fireground.
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Old 04-30-2022, 01:40 PM   #12
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Valid point, otherwise they'd be more concerned about the diesel powered Ladder and Pump Trucks which run constantly for hours at a time on the fireground.
They probably realize they can't do much about the diesel engines in the big rigs but they could with the ambulances which get far more calls and put more miles on.

And then there is the cost difference. How much more for a diesel engine in a Ford E-450 chassis
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Old 04-30-2022, 03:37 PM   #13
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Article is really meaningless today.

Same experts insisted on building elaborate smog testing facilities in Ohio. Get all them old clunkers off the road.

After a significant test period it became obvious the testing service did nothing!

All areas of serious pollution were along Interstate 75 and 71. Diesel trucks were the issue. You would then assume converting the diesel truck fleet to propane was the ticket to success. But, the push is for electric cars. Cars were not the problem. Most were pretty clean.

Who is in charge?

Have the inmates taken over the asylum?
They also dropped the testing facilities in MN years ago. So stupid. Buy a brand new vehicle, pay a fee, wait in line to get a clean bill of health. Yet you see oil burners running around and nothing is done about that. All it was was about getting fees, waiting in line (and some were quite long). Glad those days are over.

What I really wish was real verification of people having insurance, not just putting down anything and being able to get license tabs. When I was in the military in MI, you even switch or dropped insurance companies, within a week you got a letter requesting current insurance info. In MN it seams put down any crap at renewal and your good to go.
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Old 04-30-2022, 04:48 PM   #14
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Some got their PHD from the UPS store online.
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Old 04-30-2022, 04:56 PM   #15
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They probably realize they can't do much about the diesel engines in the big rigs but they could with the ambulances which get far more calls and put more miles on.

And then there is the cost difference. How much more for a diesel engine in a Ford E-450 chassis
Unless they changed it you can't get a Ford E450 ambulance in diesel anymore. We had to go to a F450 or F550 for our new ambulance. The Ford website only shows the 7.3 gas motor.
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Old 04-30-2022, 05:01 PM   #16
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DEF used is not for particulate emissions....Thats what the DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter) is used for.

Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF) is a fluid (urea) that is injected into the SCR (Selective Catalytic Reduction). DEF is transformed in the SCR with heat to cause a chemical reaction that converts nitrogen oxides (NOx) into nitrogen, water and carbon dioxide (CO2).
Unless I'm missing something, I think it's important to note that this is from a '1979–1985 population-based case-control study". How different would the results be if based on today's cleaner burning diesels?
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Old 04-30-2022, 05:27 PM   #17
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The reason Ford ambulances were all diesel engines for so many years was largely due to issues back in the 80's with several ambulances with gas engines catching fire. There were news stories, recalls and law suites I believe over it . Then there was also a high profile accident of a retired school bus in Kentucky also in the 80's were a gas tank ruptured causing the bus to catch fire killing 20 something kids and adults that was on the bus. That's the reason why school buses all went to diesel for so many years.
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Old 04-30-2022, 05:49 PM   #18
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How different would the results be if based on today's cleaner burning diesels?
I'm just guessing but aren't the "cleaner burning diesels" still outnumbered by the old "smokers" and "stinkpots"? Even if not outnumbered, how much more pollutants do the old ones put out than the newer ones?
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Old 04-30-2022, 06:16 PM   #19
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It's clear that diesel engine exhaust contains more small particulate emissions than gasoline. Is it a big health hazard? I guess it depends on how much more one is exposed to diesel exhaust than others.

It also brings up the question of how much of an issue is diesel exhaust after DEF has been burned in an effort to reduce the particulate emissions?


So, I guess that’s why GPF’s (Gasoline Particulate Filter, kinda like the Diesel Particulate Filter, but for gas engines) are starting to become a thing then? To remove all the particles that aren’t created in the combustion process….

Oh, and BTW, DEF can’t burn… ever trying lighting your pee on fire? Not much different from lighting DEF on fire….
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Old 04-30-2022, 07:35 PM   #20
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They probably realize they can't do much about the diesel engines in the big rigs but they could with the ambulances which get far more calls and put more miles on.

And then there is the cost difference. How much more for a diesel engine in a Ford E-450 chassis

When I lived where there was a fire district, They would take out a couple trucks with the ambulance so it could be logged as a call. Sometimes it was some homeless guy that stubbed his toe or OD.
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