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Old 03-16-2021, 07:56 PM   #41
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I think since StarLink is internet service it probably would be beneficial to compare it to HughesNet instead of directtv or dishTV.

Up until 4 months ago I had HughesNet 5G as my internet provider. What HughesNet called high speed internet was a joke. Sure, it was a lot better than dsl but a lot slower than cable high speed internet. Even the 4G on my smart phone is faster than HughesNet 5G satellite internet. DW tried using Zoom for her work meetings while on HughesNet and she would get dropped, logging back into the meetings meant a phone call to her supervisor for a new access code then waiting until the login was approved. Many times the re-login failed or was dropped again.

When talking to HughesNet customer service about the problem they said that satellite internet was not optimized for streaming of any type. There was too much time lapse between the home ground to the satellite back to providers ground base then to repeat the transfer of data back in the other direction. Depending on the density of a single cloud or even an airplane in the right location between the satellite and customers location could cause interruption of the signal.

Comparison between dishTV and HughesNet satellite, during heavy cloud cover, heavy rain or snow the dishTV would drop before HughesNet. 2" of snow on the dishTV satellite dish would result in loss of tv signal where it took 4" or more on the HughesNet dish to lose internet.

Since dropping HughesNet we have been using high speed internet from our local landline phone service and DW's Zoom meetings have been trouble free. We are in the process of switching to Roku so we can drop dishTV, so far it is working great even when I'm streaming on Roku while DW is on Zoom. This is what we are doing for a savings of $175 per month
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Old 03-16-2021, 08:17 PM   #42
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"Since dropping HughesNet we have been using high speed internet from our local landline phone service and DW's Zoom meetings have been trouble free. We are in the process of switching to Roku so we can drop dishTV, so far it is working great even when I'm streaming on Roku while DW is on Zoom. This is what we are doing for a savings of $175 per month"

I understand the rationale of dropping Dish or DTV but you also refer to the poor ISP capability of HughesNet. So what are you using as your ISP, it nor Roku which is a just a portal?
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Old 03-17-2021, 07:20 AM   #43
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That is THE challenge. Packaging this capability in a size, price and reliability matrix that is supportable without hiring an army of 24/7 techs has proven tougher than they expected. There are still issues with Iridium "on the go" without a perfect sky, good power, and well built/tuned antenna. Chinese manufacturing of the antennas for example is something that has proved challenging at the price point needed for consumer mobile use. the military and commercial is another matter.
Since StarLink uses LEO (Low Earth Orbit) satellites, they don't have the same issues as Iridium which uses GEO satellites. Plus the Dishy McFlatface antenna is a multiphase array, it actively trackes the satellites and finds the best signal and does the hand-offs. I don't know where you are hearing that the consumer version was delayed. It is installed in over 10,000 homes right now. See SpaceX's FCC filings. The speed has doubled since launch and most people are happy. And yes it does cost $499 for equipment, right now I have paid a fully refundable deposit of $99, so that leaves $400. It will also be $99/month. I don't think it will increase much if any. Musk has said he wants it to be profitable, even if that means it costs more. So, take the existing pricing structure with a grain of salt. I also think getting information about a competitor from a competitor is bad news. First, they are not interested in giving you the truth, just their truth. Secondly, how closely do you think they are following what's going on?

https://www.engadget.com/spacex-star...121427490.html

https://www.engadget.com/spacex-star...045831110.html

https://www.engadget.com/starlink-sa...052743863.html

https://www.starlink.com/faq
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Old 03-17-2021, 09:34 AM   #44
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A couple of comments and I will leave you enjoy the paradigm of the "early adopter":
10,000 installs is not a business. Essentially just a series of geographically dispersed tests; and there is not data to indicate their satisfaction or the amounts they paid to be early adopters of a system with minla support as of now.

The FCC filings are extremely vague and are not held to the same rigorous validation as their SEC filings which tell a different story largely because opinion, and supposition have to be removed or validated.
Iridium has been using multiphase and scanned array antennas for 10 years, so nothing new there but they have had problems incorporating them into small real estate installations like vehicles and appliances - both essential to their and the SpaceX business models.

My information comes from Contractors who have/are working for both companies as well as their supply chain including Raytheon and Honeywell. They do not care which/who is the best, just the ability to get gainful work from them. Many have been jerked around by the SpaceX program which has moved in fits and starts as investment ran low and more money had to be raised. Some were around during the Iridium transfer from Motorola and say it was just the same for them at that time, 20 years ago. They also say that the GEO vs LEO technology is just a cost issue. Its not a technological advantage and LEO has some cost challenges because of the limited power and propellant storage of the LEO vehicles that limits their useable life in the early roll out of the system. Many of the LEO birds will have had to be decommissioned before the network is open for business because of their degrading orbits and lack of fuel.

Have fun with your $500 investment - being an early adopter has to be enjoyed for what it is, as it was with the shaky analog cell phone system in the 80s and the early sat nav and sat tv offerings. I have no doubt that time and many millions more investment will produce a useable program if both are available in sufficient quantity. Of course Musk wants SX to be profitable, who would not, but like Tesla at the same stage, you are buying the sizzle at the moment with the beef not yet evident in a form one can eat and taste, to extend the metaphor.

It will not be a useable meaning mostly a 95% uptime system for mobile use until 2024 at least, IMO and as one who has to use this technology to serve my customers, I am not even tempted to try it at half the price. The fear or even contemplation of hours waiting for the customer service response; parts availability, software problem upgrades, is dreadful to contemplate. Just look at how unreliable our current cell system has been over the last 5 years where the technology and network is mature.
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Old 03-17-2021, 03:02 PM   #45
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"Since dropping HughesNet we have been using high speed internet from our local landline phone service and DW's Zoom meetings have been trouble free. We are in the process of switching to Roku so we can drop dishTV, so far it is working great even when I'm streaming on Roku while DW is on Zoom. This is what we are doing for a savings of $175 per month"

I understand the rationale of dropping Dish or DTV but you also refer to the poor ISP capability of HughesNet. So what are you using as your ISP, it nor Roku which is a just a portal?
Our local landline phone service which changed their name from CenturyTel to CenturyLink after they switched from DSL to high-speed.


When at my camper I use my smartphone from USCellular as a hotspot for my laptop.
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Old 03-17-2021, 03:41 PM   #46
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Much as I am tempted, I've been on the bleeding edge of technology before...

I'm content to let this develop and mature at someone else's expense.

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Old 03-17-2021, 03:47 PM   #47
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There are at least two big advantages to low earth orbit.

Bandwidth, A single satellite will have a finite limit. Run 1000's or more and you get a lot more bandwidth. The next bottleneck is ground stations but you can add more too. This is how cell phones are sort of keeping up with demand, adding more sites with lower power. There is limited space for geo sync satellites and unless you add one next to the current one, ground antennas need to be re aimed. And if you are too close you probably just gain fault tolerance as the signals will probably interfere with each other.

The other is response time / propagation delay. This doesn't really matter if you are streaming but is critical when you are working remote like I do and for the gamers.

I am more then ready to try this as soon as they remove the geo fencing, I don't need mobile operation, just the ability to relocate to a camping location.
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Old 03-20-2021, 09:50 PM   #48
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A couple of comments and I will leave you enjoy the paradigm of the "early adopter":
10,000 installs is not a business. Essentially just a series of geographically dispersed tests; and there is not data to indicate their satisfaction or the amounts they paid to be early adopters of a system with minla support as of now.

The FCC filings are extremely vague and are not held to the same rigorous validation as their SEC filings which tell a different story largely because opinion, and supposition have to be removed or validated.
Iridium has been using multiphase and scanned array antennas for 10 years, so nothing new there but they have had problems incorporating them into small real estate installations like vehicles and appliances - both essential to their and the SpaceX business models.

My information comes from Contractors who have/are working for both companies as well as their supply chain including Raytheon and Honeywell. They do not care which/who is the best, just the ability to get gainful work from them. Many have been jerked around by the SpaceX program which has moved in fits and starts as investment ran low and more money had to be raised. Some were around during the Iridium transfer from Motorola and say it was just the same for them at that time, 20 years ago. They also say that the GEO vs LEO technology is just a cost issue. Its not a technological advantage and LEO has some cost challenges because of the limited power and propellant storage of the LEO vehicles that limits their useable life in the early roll out of the system. Many of the LEO birds will have had to be decommissioned before the network is open for business because of their degrading orbits and lack of fuel.

Have fun with your $500 investment - being an early adopter has to be enjoyed for what it is, as it was with the shaky analog cell phone system in the 80s and the early sat nav and sat tv offerings. I have no doubt that time and many millions more investment will produce a useable program if both are available in sufficient quantity. Of course Musk wants SX to be profitable, who would not, but like Tesla at the same stage, you are buying the sizzle at the moment with the beef not yet evident in a form one can eat and taste, to extend the metaphor.

It will not be a useable meaning mostly a 95% uptime system for mobile use until 2024 at least, IMO and as one who has to use this technology to serve my customers, I am not even tempted to try it at half the price. The fear or even contemplation of hours waiting for the customer service response; parts availability, software problem upgrades, is dreadful to contemplate. Just look at how unreliable our current cell system has been over the last 5 years where the technology and network is mature.

Do you work for Iridium? Or heavily invested in Iridium? There has to be some connection, somewhere, somehow, where Starlink is a disruptive technology for you...
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Old 03-21-2021, 07:08 AM   #49
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Do you work for Iridium? Or heavily invested in Iridium? There has to be some connection, somewhere, somehow, where Starlink is a disruptive technology for you...
No, not even an investor. Just a customer and Marinesat too. And one who has spent what seems a lifetime on the Customer Service lines of these and other stupid new technology roll outs. Their business model call for customer baiting before the product is ready in order to start the cash coming in. Without that cash they cannot raise the much greater amounts they need to complete the job. Amounts that are always miscalculated and optimistically assumed so that additional amounts have to be raised. Meantime the early adopters hang out there subsidizing the whole process with little to show for it but hours with customer service and BBQ bragging rights. I cannot think of one technology in the last 40 years that was seamlessly delivered without stuffing the early adopters in the US first. Not even the LED lamps we all love so much today. Early ones were unreliable, short life (way less than advertised) and insanely expensive.
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Old 03-21-2021, 01:54 PM   #50
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LEO has some cost challenges because of the limited power and propellant storage of the LEO vehicles that limits their useable life in the early roll out of the system. Many of the LEO birds will have had to be decommissioned before the network is open for business because of their degrading orbits and lack of fuel.
Perhaps an entrepreneur will develop a mid-space refueling system. Large rocket that flies into orbit with a fuel cargo and provides a docking station for satellites low on fuel.

Why not? Our military has been refueling planes in flight for decades.


After writing this I checked to see if anyone was working on this already. Guess so and here they are:

https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/...ow-earth-orbit

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Old 03-21-2021, 02:18 PM   #51
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Interesting concepts but the opportunity(s) are going to be in the GEO and HEO birds where there is only a fuel or replacement issue. The LEO units have a planned orbit degrade and thrust paradigms that limit there ability to change that irrespective of the fuel. So these robot ships would also have to bea ble to piggy-back or push them back into their licensed orbits to prolong their lives. Every study I have seen on this subject still shows this to be in the conceptual viability of Star Trek technology. One day perhaps, or when the third or fourth generation of LEO's are launched (if ever) but not before SpaceX-Starlink must be profitable for it to survive - absent donations from Elon and his cohorts.
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Old 03-21-2021, 03:24 PM   #52
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Interesting concepts but the opportunity(s) are going to be in the GEO and HEO birds where there is only a fuel or replacement issue. The LEO units have a planned orbit degrade and thrust paradigms that limit there ability to change that irrespective of the fuel. So these robot ships would also have to bea ble to piggy-back or push them back into their licensed orbits to prolong their lives. Every study I have seen on this subject still shows this to be in the conceptual viability of Star Trek technology. One day perhaps, or when the third or fourth generation of LEO's are launched (if ever) but not before SpaceX-Starlink must be profitable for it to survive - absent donations from Elon and his cohorts.
Remember how Star Trek communicators became reality with the first "Flip Phones"?

As for the incentive to make Starlink profitable, the opportunity is there. Face it, there are places on this earth, even in civilized areas, where it's pretty much impossible to deliver internet connectivity via wires or fiber optic lines. I foresee more government involvement in the form of subsidies. Not for political reasons but rather purely practical necessity.

Whatever get's it there quickest and cheapest.
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Old 03-21-2021, 03:35 PM   #53
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Remember how Star Trek communicators became reality with the first "Flip Phones"?

As for the incentive to make Starlink profitable, the opportunity is there. Face it, there are places on this earth, even in civilized areas, where it's pretty much impossible to deliver internet connectivity via wires or fiber optic lines. I foresee more government involvement in the form of subsidies. Not for political reasons but rather purely practical necessity.

Whatever get's it there quickest and cheapest.
Indeed there are and that was the driver behind Iridium in the early 90s. But the fact remains that most (even governments) are not prepared to pay the freight driven by the costs of designing, building, mounting, launching and proving such capabilities before a dime can be charged. Investors want large returns for taking this type of 10-15 year risk in the technology, people, politics and geopolitical stability. That return gets factored into the price especially when there is competition from at least 3 other networks which despite their so called maturity, are far from perfect, expensive, not producing the returns to the capital invested except after writing off 70% of the original cost.

Starlink is founded on the principles that the technology is proven, the execution is materially less expensive, it will work from the get go and people will pay a significant premium for the capital components and the premium for the use. The remote/off the grid users have shown a distinct unwillingness over the last 15 years to do either.
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Old 03-21-2021, 05:49 PM   #54
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Indeed there are and that was the driver behind Iridium in the early 90s. But the fact remains that most (even governments) are not prepared to pay the freight driven by the costs of designing, building, mounting, launching and proving such capabilities before a dime can be charged. Investors want large returns for taking this type of 10-15 year risk in the technology, people, politics and geopolitical stability. That return gets factored into the price especially when there is competition from at least 3 other networks which despite their so called maturity, are far from perfect, expensive, not producing the returns to the capital invested except after writing off 70% of the original cost.

Starlink is founded on the principles that the technology is proven, the execution is materially less expensive, it will work from the get go and people will pay a significant premium for the capital components and the premium for the use. The remote/off the grid users have shown a distinct unwillingness over the last 15 years to do either.
Can't totally disagree but after Covid forced many to work at home and remote schooling brought the coverage gaps out more prominently i think things may change.

What's been holding development back in the past may not in the near future.

I also see land based services becomming more expensive as the providers have pretty much built out the easy markets. As they move out costs will go up and the consumers have started to choke on price increases.

Who knows?

All I want is for the Iridium satellites to keep working with my Garmin InReach Mini. It let's my kids keep track of where I am.
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Old 03-22-2021, 03:01 PM   #55
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Indeed there are and that was the driver behind Iridium in the early 90s. But the fact remains that most (even governments) are not prepared to pay the freight driven by the costs of designing, building, mounting, launching and proving such capabilities before a dime can be charged. Investors want large returns for taking this type of 10-15 year risk in the technology, people, politics and geopolitical stability. That return gets factored into the price especially when there is competition from at least 3 other networks which despite their so called maturity, are far from perfect, expensive, not producing the returns to the capital invested except after writing off 70% of the original cost.

Starlink is founded on the principles that the technology is proven, the execution is materially less expensive, it will work from the get go and people will pay a significant premium for the capital components and the premium for the use. The remote/off the grid users have shown a distinct unwillingness over the last 15 years to do either.
I think the UK government would beg to disagree. They are funding OneWeb which is in bankruptcy court right now. Musk has already said when he replied to a Tweet that he wants SL to financially viable so the $99/month would be a worldwide price; at least until they raise it.
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Old 03-22-2021, 04:23 PM   #56
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I think the UK government would beg to disagree. They are funding OneWeb which is in bankruptcy court right now. Musk has already said when he replied to a Tweet that he wants SL to financially viable so the $99/month would be a worldwide price; at least until they raise it.
Disagree about what? That people in rural communities will not pay higher prices in sufficient numbers to justify the network? They have never done so up until now especially for questionable service, limited bandwidth, frequent outages, indifferent customer service (if any) and no recourse.

The One Web funding is nothing to do with a viability statement. Instead its all about the historical commitments that the UK, EU BAe and Airbus have in the launch commitments for Eurospace. The US did the same for Iridium and MarineSat back in the early 2000s.

Elon will charge what he needs to and that may be more than the volume of subscribers that are needed to make SL viable would pay. I would pay the $99/month in a heartbeat but not if I only get half the service band width and noticeably less uptime than I do from Iridium at $300/month.

I liken it to the difference between AT&T and Sprint. In a particular area, Sprint may have been comparable to AT&T at any time but if you need US national service, it was hopeless. As is T-Mobile anywhere away from the Interstate highway system per their strategy. Not enough market in those boonies to justify the tower investment.
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Old 03-22-2021, 04:54 PM   #57
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Disagree about what? That people in rural communities will not pay higher prices in sufficient numbers to justify the network? They have never done so up until now especially for questionable service, limited bandwidth, frequent outages, indifferent customer service (if any) and no recourse.

The One Web funding is nothing to do with a viability statement. Instead its all about the historical commitments that the UK, EU BAe and Airbus have in the launch commitments for Eurospace. The US did the same for Iridium and MarineSat back in the early 2000s.

Elon will charge what he needs to and that may be more than the volume of subscribers that are needed to make SL viable would pay. I would pay the $99/month in a heartbeat but not if I only get half the service band width and noticeably less uptime than I do from Iridium at $300/month.

I liken it to the difference between AT&T and Sprint. In a particular area, Sprint may have been comparable to AT&T at any time but if you need US national service, it was hopeless. As is T-Mobile anywhere away from the Interstate highway system per their strategy. Not enough market in those boonies to justify the tower investment.
So, I was commenting on your comment: "But the fact remains that most (even governments) are not prepared to pay the freight driven by the costs of designing, building, mounting, launching and proving such capabilities before a dime can be charged."

Not being combative or disagreeing with you, just pointing out that the UK was indeed funding OneWeb, https://news.satnews.com/2021/01/14/...o-1-4-billion/. In fact they have just added MORE funding. All I'm saying is this is the new frontier, much like when everyone and their brother were laying fiber. Hopefully, Sat Internet doesn't meet that fate.

I prefer to read from what Musk says, versus what other people think ABOUT him. He has been pretty upfront about the challenges for SL and what his plans are and how they are trying to tackle them. See an example here about the Dishy and accessories prices: https://spaceexplored.com/2020/11/05...f-the-service/.

Obviously, no man can be trusted, but if he's willing to put it 280 characters or less, I'll listen to him over some pundit. If it doesn't pan out (what he says), I'll hold that against him.
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Old 04-06-2021, 08:44 AM   #58
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Starlink Self-Service Change of Location

Starlink now offers self-service change of location. That means that you DO NOT need to interact via email with Starlink support to move Dishy's location. There are a few "gotchas", however:

1. Starlink service may not be available at your new location;

2. Even IF service exists in your new location, the Starlink beta phase limits the number of subscribers ("slots") per "cell", so you may not be able to relocate service to a working cell because of subscriber limits;

3. While you have relocated your service to your new location, your slot in your old cell becomes publicly available for a new subscriber.

4. The relocation option in the app will let you know if there is service in your new location AND whether there is an available slot prior to cell reassignment.


Obviously, this is not "Starlink Mobile"; that will need to wait for a while. But it does address those folks who have subscribed at one residence, sold their house, and have moved to a new location.

Chris Dunphy from the Mobile Internet Resource Center explains:
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Old 04-06-2021, 09:22 AM   #59
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That relocation capability has actually been available for the last 6 months but you needed a COMMAND expertise in W10 (no IOS, Apple or Android). To make the change. But capacity or switching was so clunky that it literally took 12 hours of trying before I could effectuate the change. So gave it up. The Sat hand off is one special secret sauce at the other networks made a lot easier by the low number needed per subscriber relative to the current and intentional quantities of subscribers. It will be some time before they get this figured out if they are funded which is not a foregone conclusion.
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Old 04-06-2021, 09:34 AM   #60
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That relocation capability has actually been available for the last 6 months but you needed a COMMAND expertise in W10 (no IOS, Apple or Android). To make the change...{snip}
Or, you could have just emailed Starlink support and had them do it. A friend of mine in Oregon emailed a location change request and 3-days later he was up and running at his new location.

At 70, 3-days does not seem that long to wait; certainly not long enough to make me want to rely on my 45-years of coding experience to effect the change! But...hey...everyone is different, right?
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