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Old 02-21-2021, 09:41 PM   #101
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Good thing they don't have natural gas vehicles either.
Of course gasoline vehicle is no better either when the electricity is out how do you pump gas into your car at the gas station?
When Sandy hit NJ, generators were used to run the gas pumps.
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Old 02-21-2021, 09:44 PM   #102
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When Sandy hit NJ, generators were used to run the gas pumps.

At a very, very, limited number of stations.
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Old 02-21-2021, 10:13 PM   #103
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Good thing they don't have natural gas vehicles either.
Of course gasoline vehicle is no better either when the electricity is out how do you pump gas into your car at the gas station?
Actually, some of the buses around here run on CNG: Compressed natural gas.
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Old 02-21-2021, 10:28 PM   #104
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Has anyone been staying in Texas at an RV Park where the electricity use is billed to the site? Have you received a surprise bill that is as large as these people have received?



https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/hi...?ocid=msedgdhp



I can't speak for others but if I lived where the electrical utility could charge obscene amounts like I read about in Texas as a result of this storm I would definitely get only ONE bill. I'd shut the power off and be out of the state as soon as I could pack and move.



Then again, I guess I'm spoiled. I pay $0.105 per Kwh here where I live, storm or not, high demand times or not. My last winter electric bill was $105. A fair portion of that was from running an Electric heater in my TT, keeping around 60 degrees through freezing weather.



The $16 K electric bill mentioned in the linked article is beyond obscene.


Most people won’t the article I read on bills are those that didn’t choose a fixed rate
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Old 02-22-2021, 06:45 AM   #105
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At a very, very, limited number of stations.
And after the storm, grant money was provided for retailers to purchase generators at 250 stations throughout the state.
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Old 02-22-2021, 07:07 AM   #106
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Griddy is only one of many that exist. The people that got those bills were chasing the penny that they thought they were saving by "betting" on cheap electricity costs that could fluctuate monthly/daily. For the past 2 or 3 years they were saving close to 4 or 5 cents per KWH compared to fixed price contracts and thought they were ahead of the game. They failed to realize they could end up on the other side when prices started to rise. Most probably never read the terms of what the were signing up for and they had to sign they had read them(like agreeing to software licenses, how many have ever read the whole thing) I do believe there was some price gouging and things should be checked out but they did play the gamble to begin with. Offering some assistance should be an option available for those that are really hurt.
People seem to be ignoring this fact for some reason. It’s all good when it’s good, but when it’s not good, it’s got to be somebody else’s fault and the Government needs to do something about it.

Contracts are in place for a reason. This is a perfect example of how a contract binds both parties to their responsibilities.

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Old 02-22-2021, 05:25 PM   #107
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...
Supposedly the weather catastrophes are highly likely to get a LOT worse and much closer together. All our weather is driven by moisture evaporation rates and we are turning the burner up under the sea (or over the sea?). World weather had been fairly stable for a while, except for the last 200 years.

I'm going to take it that not many people understand climate change in terms of man-made Global Warming. Here is one of the best treatises I've ever seen to help explain it. The video is over 50 minutes, but real climate science and solutions of how to fix it, are near impossible to properly explain in less time:
by Richard Alley

With a little extra luck, everybody's young kids or grandkids already know more about climate change than us old fogies do. Well, heck, they'll be the ones living (or suffering) the most with the consequences of our follies and/or victories.

TRIVIA
When the temperature trouble just escalated south of us, we suddenly had rolling blackouts in ND, in north Bismarck (but lucky, not my neighborhood). We were told by local leadership that we were being forced to 'share' available power with the Midwest central grid corridor and especially told that renewable energy was a major fault contributor. My guess is that most people that live here, believe windmills are a bad thing. Too bad we don't embrace them, the windmills that is. We embrace our neighbors here. Offhand, North Dakota is 2nd only to Texas in wind.

There was a lot of hand-wringing too, when coal plants were forced to clean up or shut down here. Not so long ago, the local medical profession had actually gotten together in a front page newspaper article to protest the dirty emissions that followed the Missouri River Valley down through Bismarck, drifting south towards SD.

The problem showed up as the higher rate of respiratory illness. ND coal is some of the dirtiest burning coal in the world. We in ND, supplemented with cleaner burning Wyoming coal for a while, then finally just natural gas to barely meet emission standards. We even have one of the few coal plants in the world that removes CO² and sells it. Or at least they did before natural gas got so cheap.

We have also recently become a major oil production state, I understand 2nd only to Texas again. From my point of view, it's been a regular boondoggle. The increased heavy traffic wrecked a lot of the roads in the NW part of the state (Williston Basin area) and we got hit with higher taxes to cover repairs. Roads ordinarily don't last too long up in the north anyway. Moisture in the ground freezes, swells and heaves the asphalt every year. That's why a lot of ND rural roads are made of gravel and dust. Mostly dust. We scrape it back in place regularily.

Our homes are mostly made with more expensive foundations buried at least 4 feet deep for the same reason. Freezing and heaving. So the water lines are 4+ feet deep, which only dare come up inside the warmer basement/crawl space area. And the sewer is also at 4+ feet, which would plug with ice otherwise. Sometimes 4+ feet isn't deep enough and lines freeze anyway. Being constantly ready for winter makes this an expensive place to live. And now we'll probably be helping our friendly neighbors down south too, as federal tax-payers. But it's ok because they'll be helping us sooner or later.

Sooner or later we'll get another 'perfect storm year' in the Rockies, like in 2010-11. Then we'll get borrowed federal dollars again too. We borrow it from our grandchildren.

"The flooding was triggered by record snowfall in the Rocky Mountains of Montana and Wyoming along with near-record spring rainfall in central and eastern Montana. All six major dams along the Missouri River released record amounts of water to prevent overflow which led to flooding threatening several towns and cities along the river from Montana to Missouri; in particular Bismarck, North Dakota; Pierre, South Dakota; Dakota Dunes, South Dakota; South Sioux City, Nebraska, Sioux City, Iowa; Omaha, Nebraska; Council Bluffs, Iowa; Saint Joseph, Missouri; Kansas City, Missouri; Jefferson City, Missouri, and St. Louis, Missouri." --WIKIPEDIA

The more evaporation in a warmer planet climate, the more rain must drop. What would make such a flood even more horrid would be Fort Peck Dam, the first dam on the Missouri River, washing out. Then all 6 Missouri dams would fall like dominoes down to Nebraska and then flood the Mississippi like never before. One would think this would never happen soon. We just got done fixing the darn dams back up from last time.

It just so happens that this upper-most and first-built dam, Ft Peck in Montana, was cheaply built as a Hydraulic Fill or "sluice fill".

In the Hydraulic Fill method, dirty water is guided over an area, then slowed down so it drops "loose" sediment to gradually build up a dike, or dam. In horse-drawn days it was an efficient, natural way to build a dam with one caveat. The caveat is that such a dam is not too durable. Ft Peck even washed out once, as it was being built. The rest of the downstream Missouri dams are built with well-engineered, compacted, Rolled Earth Fill that will hold back anything... except an upstream dam breaking.

All such dirty-water-sluice-fill ancient dams in California, for instance, were taken out because of their tendency to result in liquefaction during any jiggling... like a small earthquake for instance. We know how taxpayers hate to pay for anything extra, but they did it after just a few dams failed. OTOH, ND hasn't had a lot of earthquakes in the past. Then, again, ND may be susceptible to earthquake-swarms from oil field fracking. But maybe that won't happen.

Maybe the next ice age will suddenly hit ND early instead. There is evidence that suggests that a too-warm climate interferes with the warm, equatorial ocean currents that flow up both American coasts. These warm flows are what keeps our current climate temperate (livable) by distributing excess equatorial oceanic heat into northern latitudes. Supposedly, without these continuous comforting flows, the entire central NA continent gets rather permanently cold. That is why it normally only really gets cold mid-continent in any average winter now. While most hot water heat warms the coasts with a bit leaking to us in the middle.

But by permanently cold, I mean that winter snow never melts any more in this case, also known as glaciation. An ice-age proper. Most all sun heat stays at the equator. But surely there would be time to leave, as one notices the local weather slowly cooling and a permanent ice build-up on the driveway. Would there not?

Except the mammoths somebody mentioned a while back had some peculiar attributes. As they now thaw out of the melting tundra up north, scientists who want to study them, have to find them before scavengers eat them. They were frozen so quick they are still edible. As a matter of fact they were frozen so quick that they were still chewing veggies in the last seconds, some having been found with April foliage frozen in their mouth. Whatever froze them, so through and through, was so cold and so quick that their stomachs did not even have time to continue to chemically digest within temporary ordinary postmortem residual warmth, as is common for slow-froze dead critters. Indigestion. I wonder if they had heartburn as they froze to death?

A possible culprit in this mystery is a type of atmospheric pole inversion, cold stratospheric air in the arctic region suddenly pouring down out of seemingly nowhere on ancient warm, grassy arctic meadows, like lake water suddenly turning over in seasons (lake inversion). Normally stratospheric air is earth's coldest air and steadily getting much colder, with global warming trapping the heat down low.

But because of the sparse, thin upper air pressure, ordinarily dense cold air is normally still lighter than the warmer polar air beneath it (troposphere) and all remains normal. But if the stratosphere gets cold enough, these upper and lower atmospheres could completely swap or invert at the poles through a giant polar vortex. The upper density layer, severely shrunken from extreme cold, could possibly increase it's density enough to become heavier than the usually more dense high-pressure sea-level air beneath it.

Voila, a huge turnover threshold emerges, an inversion invasion of very, very cold air suddenly dropped from the stratosphere in the middle of dinner. A very sudden inversion, flipped like a light switch that quick-freezes critters much bigger than me... right where they stand and chew. It was really warm yesterday and today we have an ice age.

I'm keeping our RV full of fuel and a coat handy. Please keep a light on for us in Texas... if you can.

Wes
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Old 02-22-2021, 05:49 PM   #108
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The great eastern seaboard outage in 2003.

A good read. The whole thing collapsed. Similar problem with lack of Maintenance in Ohio, tree pruning.


https://www.thestar.com/business/eco...t_dark.html?rf
Before you throw stones at Ohio,try reading about the ill prepared Ontario in January 4 1998 Ice storm power outage! Youroo!!
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Old 02-22-2021, 06:01 PM   #109
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...
Supposedly the weather catastrophes are highly likely to get a LOT worse and much closer together. All our weather is driven by moisture evaporation rates and we are turning the burner up under the sea (or over the sea?). World weather had been fairly stable for a while, except for the last 200 years..........

Wes
Wes - Very interesting read. Thank you
-Russ
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Old 02-22-2021, 06:38 PM   #110
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Wes, we are still in an ice age. You can't start another until this one is over.
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Old 02-22-2021, 06:47 PM   #111
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Good thing they don't have natural gas vehicles either.
Of course gasoline vehicle is no better either when the electricity is out how do you pump gas into your car at the gas station?
Lots and lots of vehicles run on natural gas.
We have CNG filling stations in PA that look similar to regular old gas stations. Because they serve primarily the commercial sector, all the stations have large backup generators on site.

The company I worked for built hundreds and hundreds of CNG powered trucks for the waste industry. Many of Columbia Gas company vehicles use it too.
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Old 02-23-2021, 01:01 PM   #112
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Because of our abundance of Hydro Electric Dams and the stabilizing effects that Gulf of Mexico has on our weather, Alabama pretty much will never run short of power. And yes we had a massive 24 inch blizzard in 92 and we still had plenty of power. So we regularly sell excess power to the pathetic California power system since they didn't build enough power plants and what they have gets blown down by the wind. We sell to our Yankee friends up in New York as well. We are basically like oil barons down here, except it's electricity, and the general public never sees a dime of it. but if Texas didn't have a completely separate power grid we could have sold you what you needed.
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Old 02-23-2021, 01:40 PM   #113
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but if Texas didn't have a completely separate power grid we could have sold you what you needed.
Therein lies the problem.
Most of us had no idea that we were not on the East or West grid... or if we knew, didn't understand the consequences.
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Old 02-23-2021, 01:42 PM   #114
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And after the storm, grant money was provided for retailers to purchase generators at 250 stations throughout the state.
A good start.
If you live in NJ you know how closely packed together everything is and that in a large area of the state a 10 square mile area can have 250 gas stations.
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Old 02-23-2021, 01:43 PM   #115
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Isn't deregulation wonderful.
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Old 02-23-2021, 01:44 PM   #116
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Lots and lots of vehicles run on natural gas.
We have CNG filling stations in PA that look similar to regular old gas stations. Because they serve primarily the commercial sector, all the stations have large backup generators on site.

The company I worked for built hundreds and hundreds of CNG powered trucks for the waste industry. Many of Columbia Gas company vehicles use it too.
Just think how stranded they would also be if they were in TX.
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Old 02-23-2021, 01:46 PM   #117
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Isn't deregulation wonderful.
Sure thing.
The "free market" spoke in TX. I couldn't even imagine getting an electric bill for $2000 a day for a regular ranch house.
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Old 02-23-2021, 01:51 PM   #118
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Sure thing.
The "free market" spoke in TX. I couldn't even imagine getting an electric bill for $2000 a day for a regular ranch house.
This will depend on if the customer opted for a variable rate or a fixed rate plan. Also, Governor Abbott has stated that he is holding all electric bills until this is worked out, has prohibited power cut-offs due to not paying bills, etc. I'm not in an area that is deregulated and I'm on a fixed rate, so I'm not worried, but I can see how some around the state can and will be.

The largest part of deregulation is it allows uninformed customers to make critical choices on their service. Reminds me of back in the 80s when home interest rates were 13%, 15% or even more, and lots of people bought into very bad ARM or balloon mortgagees without knowing what they were doing to themselves.
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Old 02-23-2021, 02:00 PM   #119
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This will depend on if the customer opted for a variable rate or a fixed rate plan. Also, Governor Abbott has stated that he is holding all electric bills until this is worked out, has prohibited power cut-offs due to not paying bills, etc. I'm not in an area that is deregulated and I'm on a fixed rate, so I'm not worried, but I can see how some around the state can and will be.
You know what scares me? My bill for nat gas that runs my furnace and hot water heater at the house. The furnace ran 24 hours a day when we had electric.
My electric rate is fixed, but I don't think the nat gas is a fixed rate. The electric company can tell me what my usage is daily and estimate my monthly bill (which is a bit above normal, but not much)
The natural gas company is silent on my projected bill.
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Old 02-23-2021, 02:16 PM   #120
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This will depend on if the customer opted for a variable rate or a fixed rate plan. Also, Governor Abbott has stated that he is holding all electric bills until this is worked out, has prohibited power cut-offs due to not paying bills, etc. I'm not in an area that is deregulated and I'm on a fixed rate, so I'm not worried, but I can see how some around the state can and will be.

The largest part of deregulation is it allows uninformed customers to make critical choices on their service. Reminds me of back in the 80s when home interest rates were 13%, 15% or even more, and lots of people bought into very bad ARM or balloon mortgagees without knowing what they were doing to themselves.
He is stopping the power companies from cutting off your electric for non payment. He has not said you don't have to eventually pay that $2000 a day bill though.
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