Why is the Travel Trailer Owner's manual generic?

[FR29TE]

It bothers me that Owner’s manual don't be more specific about my 2021 Forest River Cherokee trailer Gray Wolf (Black Label) 29TEBL… .I have to read paragraphs about propane in the fridge,but my fridge does not use propane gas only 12 volts of current or the care of corrugated aluminum on the outside, but my trailer is made of fiberglass ... I really wonder why they don't make a manual of instructions appropriate for each model and with updated photos ... will it be so expensive?

[bikendan]

Because a generic owners manual has been the RV Industry standard for decades. Almost every RV manufacturer only provides a generic owners manual, not just FR.

[Flybob]

Travel trailers are a collection of OEM appliances and components incorporated into a shell provided by the manufacturer ( ie FR). There are continuous changes in layout and components so keeping a specific manual up to date would be impossible. That said, the OEM components generally remain constant and the good news is that detailed manuals and trouble shooting procedures are available from all those manufacturers. You should have received a build sheet with your unit that lists all the OEM components with make, model, and serial number. Use the build sheet to go to the manufacturers web site and download the appropriate module. Almost none of the FR supplied components require a manual.

[FR29TE]

There can be many excuses why .... but if you want to know where it is
the propane gas line or the hot or cold water pipes,electric wires,etc. or if you need to find the roof trusses or wall studs, it does not make sense that you have to guess or disassemble the lining under the trailer or buy a stud detector ... it is much easier and more logical for the factory that assembled it to provide you with the technical details of the trailer ... (I am not talking about the appliances)
Thank you...

[rsdata]

There can be many excuses why .... but if you want to know where it is the propane gas line or the hot or cold water pipes

These trailers are equivalent to a stick-build house, but with many different designs that change every year. Each builder has a set of master plans but the individual carpenter makes a door a few inches away from the plans, to accommodate a slight change in the materials that are delivered to him and the electrician that follows has to accommodate that change. IMPOSSIBLE to keep up with all of the changes on an individual trailer.

Unless you pay an architect you do not get plans for your stick-built home.

You may not be happy with the details that you are missing, but for the majority of the millions of owners out there it is just not that important... they figure out what they need to know and leave it at that.

Hopefully that will also be good enough for you...

[mbbutler]

Because there are no federal guidelines to mandate them like there is for automobile owners manuals.

[oxcamper]

As a former (ie before retiring) I was the North America Director of Quality for a major chemical company.
I can assure you that the quality perception of customer communication and satisfaction in the RV industry is centered on not having to spend $$ on things that won't affect the bottom line -- TODAY.

The irony of this thinking is that the RV industry relies on repeat customers, and it's a classic case of "biting off your nose to spite your face".
As I see it, and by reading a number of the threads on this forum, most of us just 'roll over" and say you have to fix it yourself.

In most other consumer (and non consumer) industries there is a common consensus and recognition that the customer needs to be happy and satisfied in order for the industry to be successful.

Certainly the automotive industry, the appliance industry, the airline industry, the food industry, and on and on and on would not survive if they didn't care for the customer.
The RV industry gets away with it because the customer, you and I, and even the dealers, don't put up enough of a stink about the poor communication and quality of the product they are selling.

Just about every industry and member of those industries adhere to quality system standards (i.e. ISO 9001 or something like it). The RV industry does not.

I would venture to say, that if everyone who wants an RV would NOT purchase a new one but buy a used unit, that would get the attention of the manufacturers. They would have to spend the resources on quality, communication, and customer satisfaction.

Why did the Japanese auto makers have such inroads in the American market in the 70's and 80's? They did what the American auto makers ignored, quality and customer satisfaction. The amazing thing was that their product quality was based on the principles of an American forward thinker, Edward Demmings; a quality systems theorist that put forward the thinking process that if you build quality into your product at the front end, and you pay attention to your customer's needs, wants, and perceptions, you will put out a quality product and be successful over your competition.

It took the American big 3 a decade to learn that lesson the hard way.

Just my opinion based on 40+ years of moving quality forward.

[Larry-NC]

It's Deming.

[oxcamper]

Originally Posted by Larry-NC

It's Deming.

Typo
sorry

[FR29TE]

Originally Posted by oxcamper

As a former (ie before retiring) I was the North America Director of Quality for a major chemical company.
I can assure you that the quality perception of customer communication and satisfaction in the RV industry is centered on not having to spend $$ on things that won't affect the bottom line -- TODAY.

The irony of this thinking is that the RV industry relies on repeat customers, and it's a classic case of "biting off your nose to spite your face".
As I see it, and by reading a number of the threads on this forum, most of us just 'roll over" and say you have to fix it yourself.

In most other consumer (and non consumer) industries there is a common consensus and recognition that the customer needs to be happy and satisfied in order for the industry to be successful.

Certainly the automotive industry, the appliance industry, the airline industry, the food industry, and on and on and on would not survive if they didn't care for the customer.
The RV industry gets away with it because the customer, you and I, and even the dealers, don't put up enough of a stink about the poor communication and quality of the product they are selling.

Just about every industry and member of those industries adhere to quality system standards (i.e. ISO 9001 or something like it). The RV industry does not.

I would venture to say, that if everyone who wants an RV would NOT purchase a new one but buy a used unit, that would get the attention of the manufacturers. They would have to spend the resources on quality, communication, and customer satisfaction.

Why did the Japanese auto makers have such inroads in the American market in the 70's and 80's? They did what the American auto makers ignored, quality and customer satisfaction. The amazing thing was that their product quality was based on the principles of an American forward thinker, Edward Demmings; a quality systems theorist that put forward the thinking process that if you build quality into your product at the front end, and you pay attention to your customer's needs, wants, and perceptions, you will put out a quality product and be successful over your competition.

It took the American big 3 a decade to learn that lesson the hard way.

Just my opinion based on 40+ years of moving quality forward.

very well said...Thank you!!

[bikendan]

Originally Posted by oxcamper

Why did the Japanese auto makers have such inroads in the American market in the 70's and 80's? They did what the American auto makers ignored, quality and customer satisfaction.

It took the American big 3 a decade to learn that lesson the hard way.

I agree with most of what you said except this.
I have not found anyone that can suggest how the Japanese auto scenario, could happen to the RV Industry.
The only foreign company that's taken over a North American RV manufacturer, was Hymer of Germany taking over Roadtrek of Canada. This ended up in disaster and Thor almost acquired them but excluded RT from what they acquired from Hymer. Apparently another German RV manufacturer, Rapids, has recently acquired RT. Time will tell if they can keep RT viable.
Bottom line is that I seriously doubt there ever being any foreign competition manufacturering RVs for North America, other than a trickle of very expensive boutique RVs.

[FR29TE]

You may not be happy with the details that you are missing, but for the majority of the millions of owners out there it is just not that important... they figure out what they need to know and leave it at that.

Hopefully that will also be good enough for you...[/QUOTE]

--o0o-------------------o0o--------------------o0o------------

It is precisely because of that opinion that the industry does not care about satisfying customers or improving quality....(my opinion with all the respect you deserve)

[Mr. Dan]

Originally Posted by FR29TE

You may not be happy with the details that you are missing, but for the majority of the millions of owners out there it is just not that important... they figure out what they need to know and leave it at that.

Hopefully that will also be good enough for you...

--o0o-------------------o0o--------------------o0o------------

It is precisely because of that opinion that the industry does not care about satisfying customers or improving quality....(my opinion with all the respect you deserve)[/QUOTE]




rsdata has been around a long time. He's seen these points and their counterpoints over and over. If he changes his opinion about all this, nothing will change. Maybe you should propose a workable solution for this "problem"... a solution that is more practical than changing opinions.

[bedubya]

Originally Posted by rsdata

These trailers are equivalent to a stick-build house, but with many different designs that change every year. Each builder has a set of master plans but the individual carpenter makes a door a few inches away from the plans, to accommodate a slight change in the materials that are delivered to him and the electrician that follows has to accommodate that change. IMPOSSIBLE to keep up with all of the changes on an individual trailer.

Unless you pay an architect you do not get plans for your stick-built home.

You may not be happy with the details that you are missing, but for the majority of the millions of owners out there it is just not that important... they figure out what they need to know and leave it at that.

Hopefully that will also be good enough for you...

WELL SAID! And right on the money.

[bedubya]

Originally Posted by FR29TE

There can be many excuses why .... but if you want to know where it is
the propane gas line or the hot or cold water pipes,electric wires,etc. or if you need to find the roof trusses or wall studs, it does not make sense that you have to guess or disassemble the lining under the trailer or buy a stud detector ... it is much easier and more logical for the factory that assembled it to provide you with the technical details of the trailer ... (I am not talking about the appliances)
Thank you...

I retired from The Home Depot. I can't imagine a DIY'r who doesn't own a stud finder.


And as rsdata said, even the best blueprints will not pinpoint where the framer actually put a stud in a stick built house.

[U.S.ArmyVeteran]

Originally Posted by oxcamper

Why did the Japanese auto makers have such inroads in the American market in the 70's and 80's? They did what the American auto makers ignored, quality and customer satisfaction. The amazing thing was that their product quality was based on the principles of an American forward thinker, Edward Demmings; a quality systems theorist that put forward the thinking process that if you build quality into your product at the front end, and you pay attention to your customer's needs, wants, and perceptions, you will put out a quality product and be successful over your competition.

It took the American big 3 a decade to learn that lesson the hard way.

Just my opinion based on 40+ years of moving quality forward.

X2 Absolutely agree with the auto industry analysis. I have never owned a foreign made or named car or truck. And never will. That is just my thing.

But I am very thankful that the foreign competition lit a fire under the Big Three. We are all the recipients of that benefit.

The RV industry needs an inferno lit under them also.

[pgandw]

Originally Posted by bedubya

And as rsdata said, even the best blueprints will not pinpoint where the framer actually put a stud in a stick built house.

Drawing maintenance is really the largest issue for both stick built houses and RVs. Both are subject to significant modifications by owners. Builders and owners do not generally maintain the drawing set - even when they have them. As a result, very quickly, drawings do not reflect reality.

The prior owners of my house were a structural engineer and an architect. They had the semi-custom house built. They passed on to me numerous blue prints and plans, including landscaping plans and sprinkler layout they had drawn. The 2 circuit breaker panels were meticulously labeled. And none of them reflected what was really there after 14 years of ownership. That was before I made numerous modifications of my own. I did mostly relabel the circuit breakers.

It was only when the Japanese competition forced Detroit to improve quality through process control that specific wiring and parts diagrams became commonly available. Wiring harnesses for cars were implemented, allowing for model-specific wiring diagrams. Prior to that, all that anybody had was generic wiring schematics.

A side "benefit" of rigid process control was/is standardization. Individually ordered options became option packages or trim levels to standardize cars (and later trucks). Individual selectable options from the factory have become few and far between, with many packages or trim levels including items you as a buyer don't care about, but you have to take to get the items you do want.

At present, RVs are a lot more comparable to stick-built houses than a car or truck. And the model works for the manufacturers and the labor force. Becoming like the car industry would require upfront investments of millions, and a major cultural change on the part of both management and labor in the RV industry. They aren't going to change the culture or make the investment until the current model stops working.

Fred W
2019 Flagstaff T21TBHW A-frame
2008 Hyundai Entourage minivan
camping Colorado and adjacent states one weekend at a time

[nic7320]

How much more are you willing to pay for a vehicle specific manual?

If the amount is zero, then there's your answer.

[bikendan]

As I said, I have yet to see anyone come up with a realistic scenario, regarding how foreign competition in the RV Industry could really happen.
Even with the highest RV sales on record, no foreign competition on the horizon.
Let's face it, RVing is really a uniquely North American thing, compared to the rest of the world. Especially for RVs over 20ft.

[FR29TE]

Believe me that if necessary I would pay for the instruction manual....
if it were objective and specific... and I can assure you that I'm not the only one...