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Old 02-03-2022, 11:48 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Reverse_snowbird View Post
Since burning propane doesn't produce methane like natural gas does, a ban on propane appliances wouldn't make much sense.

They seem to be concerned about the level of methane in houses from natural gas stoves, but I'm not sure I buy that.
So, here's where these faux "experts" trip people up: semantics and technical words. For the record, natural gas IS methane with a little ethane (and some traces of inert gases like Nitrogen). Propane/butane are Liquified Petroleum Gas (LPG). Burning LPG doesn't produce methane. Burning natural gas doesn't produce methane since it is methane. I would be very careful reading these articles expressing "concern" over subjects the writer(s) has no real knowledge of or hasn't applied critical thinking to the subject at hand.

If you can't dazzle them with brilliance baffle them with BS.
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Old 02-03-2022, 11:54 PM   #62
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seems to work out all right in Quebec, where electric is the most popular heat source. And some places are near the Arctic circle. They are blessed with a Large amount of Hydroelectric Power. In fact Hydro Quebec sells a lot of Power to the northern states.


Just to clarify, Natural Gas IS methane. it gives off CO2 and Carbon Monoxide when used. I belive that it is seen as a "Transitional Fuel"


and yes, Living in Ontario where 50% of our power is atomic, I agree that we need to get over the squemishness about atomic Power and build more.
I have absolutely no problem with going all electric…. as long as it is affordable. Some electric suppliers do not maintain their grid, charge exorbitant rates and make their product unaffordable. Living in CNY in the early ‘80’s, it was nothing in my all electric house to see a monthly bill of over $1,000.00 during the winter.
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Old 02-04-2022, 12:15 AM   #63
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I have absolutely no problem with going all electric…. as long as it is affordable. Some electric suppliers do not maintain their grid, charge exorbitant rates and make their product unaffordable. Living in CNY in the early ‘80’s, it was nothing in my all electric house to see a monthly bill of over $1,000.00 during the winter.
Wow, where is CNY?
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Old 02-04-2022, 12:58 AM   #64
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True! And guess who controls most of the worlds graphite supply...




China
https://www.reuters.com/business/aut...ze-2021-12-15/
Ummmm...... that's coal
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Old 02-04-2022, 01:13 AM   #65
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I didn’t consider 3 Mile Island to be a Major accident since it was contained and did not injure anyone. I suppose some would consider it major, it just didn't fit the criteria I was using.
Then of course there was that minor Chernobyl neusance thing with a paltry 50- 100 deaths.
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Old 02-04-2022, 06:17 AM   #66
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France excells in two things that I know of. Cooking, and Nuclear power. The new designs of nuclear plants are way better than those built 50 years ago.

Lots of folks believe there isn't any global warming. Some folks believe that CO2 doesn't contribute to greenhouse gases. Personally, I'd like some global warming.

What we are doing by increasing energy costs is giving China a huge advantage. They are not our friends.
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Old 02-04-2022, 08:25 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Reverse_snowbird View Post
Since burning propane doesn't produce methane like natural gas does, a ban on propane appliances wouldn't make much sense.

They seem to be concerned about the level of methane in houses from natural gas stoves, but I'm not sure I buy that.
Some facts:
https://www.e-education.psu.edu/fsc4...specifications

Natural Gas is mostly Methane (CH4); varies by source location from 65% to 77% methane. (See link)

Propane is extracted as a byproduct of the refining of crude oil and processed natural gas. It contains nearly 100% Propane (C3H8) and contains nearly three times the carbon of natural gas by volume.

https://www.propanetankstore.com/blo...n-of-propane-/

Burning hydrocarbons (anything with carbon and hydrogen in the formula) ALWAYS produces Carbon Dioxide and water vapor; not Methane (sorry).

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Old 02-04-2022, 09:16 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Reverse_snowbird View Post
Since burning propane doesn't produce methane like natural gas does, a ban on propane appliances wouldn't make much sense.

They seem to be concerned about the level of methane in houses from natural gas stoves, but I'm not sure I buy that.
Think about this for a moment what you wrote here.

Burning natural gas produces methane, another flammable gas.

Right track, wrong reason. Natural gas IS methane. Its the processing of getting it out of the ground and to delivery that is the issue because some of it leaks out between the fracking process and final stage of putting it in pipes.

When burned under optimal conditions, natural gas typically emits between 50 and 60 percent less CO2 than coal does, and as an automobile fuel, between 15 and 20 percent less of the greenhouse gases than gasoline. Natural gas also generates far less in the way of harmful pollutants like mercury and nitrogen oxide than do coal, gasoline, and diesel.

Banning it's use after it has been put in the delivery system is the DUMBEST idea yet. Do they think, oh they banned it, lets stop extracting it will work? Nope, as long as there is any need for it, they will continue extracting it. They can compress it into a liquid and ship it overseas instead.
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Old 02-04-2022, 09:18 AM   #69
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France excells in two things that I know of. Cooking, and Nuclear power. The new designs of nuclear plants are way better than those built 50 years ago.

Lots of folks believe there isn't any global warming. Some folks believe that CO2 doesn't contribute to greenhouse gases. Personally, I'd like some global warming.

What we are doing by increasing energy costs is giving China a huge advantage. They are not our friends.
Don't they have a method of reusing pellets from one reactor into another?
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Old 02-04-2022, 09:36 AM   #70
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heat

I remember at some collage the students wanted them to stop using fossil fuels, so the Dean shut off the steam to heat the dorms with in one day they withdrew their petition. I always said that all the people that want to stop using fossil fuels their meters should be pulled they should have to walk everywhere no public transportation. With that said as soon as it effects enough people the laws will be overturned. In California the lawn people will just go to Nevada, or another State buy their mowers and weed eaters and life will carry on.
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Old 02-04-2022, 09:45 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Reverse_snowbird View Post
Since burning propane doesn't produce methane like natural gas does, a ban on propane appliances wouldn't make much sense.

They seem to be concerned about the level of methane in houses from natural gas stoves, but I'm not sure I buy that.
You need to rethink that since propane is a byproduct of natural gas and oil
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Old 02-04-2022, 11:38 AM   #72
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Heat pump north ohio

I live north of Grand Rapids Michigan and have had a heat pump for 15 years. average 200/mo yearly for electricity. It handles Heating to 72/65 Cooling 78/75 year round. I also have a workshop. So heat pumps can do the work. 4200 sq foot home
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Old 02-04-2022, 11:43 AM   #73
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I live north of Grand Rapids Michigan and have had a heat pump for 15 years. average 200/mo yearly for electricity. It handles Heating to 72/65 Cooling 78/75 year round. I also have a workshop. So heat pumps can do the work. 4200 sq foot home
My heat pump only works to about 35,
What is your backup?
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Old 02-04-2022, 11:52 AM   #74
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no backup

I put electrical coils in the plenum for backup but leave the breaker off. So really no backup
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Old 02-04-2022, 11:53 AM   #75
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You know I do fine this funny in a sad way. With most of the west coast states having lost all common sense when it comes to consumer needs/goods. As an example, Calf wants you to go to all electrical power for your needs. But the CALF infrastructure will not support this requirement so, what does the state government do? Mandate rolling blackouts in high power consumption usage.

There is also a proposal and or new law in Calf. banning all gas/propane grills do to the out-put of particulates when grilling. It is also being considered to ban all campfires in the future for several reason.

For all of you who have stated that the west coast states use HYDRO-Power. What happens when the electrical generating dams are being removed so, fish can migrate up the river? Such as this article has stated to happen by 2023. Where are you going to get the electrical energy for your needs?

https://www.weatherbug.com/news/West...p-Water-Debate

I am just asking where is the commonsense these days.
You have some good points there.
We are lacking in the management department, meaning governing of the state. With the governor we have this state will be full socialist in a short time.

We live less than 30 miles of the Snake River, Lower Granite Dam, and Pacific Power delivers us coal fired power from Wyoming, makes sense, right.
If this country was managed it would be wonderful, instead of politically motivated.

A good share of our hydro power is sent to California. There was a push several years ago to divert part of the Columbia River to LA, that didn't work out either.
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Old 02-04-2022, 12:23 PM   #76
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Don't they have a method of reusing pellets from one reactor into another?
As I understand spent fuel is reprocessed into usable fuel for reactors as much as possible but there is still a lot of hazardous material remaining. Some is also potentially weapon material which is extremely problematic if falling into wrong hands.

There is a large waste processing plant in WA State that has been under construction for 18+ years but so far all it's "processed" is money.

I recall reading an article several years ago that explained France's success with nuclear power. Two things that stood out was first, they utilized the same "plans" for each plant with just site adaptation rather than trying to reinvent the wheel for each new plant. Less cost that way. Second, they store spent fuel on site at each reactor rather than moving it around the country.

There may have been changes to this model since I read the article but their model should work here if we had the will to follow it.

Unfortunately politics, not science, rule when it comes to sensible power generation in this country.
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Old 02-04-2022, 12:26 PM   #77
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I live north of Grand Rapids Michigan and have had a heat pump for 15 years. average 200/mo yearly for electricity. It handles Heating to 72/65 Cooling 78/75 year round. I also have a workshop. So heat pumps can do the work. 4200 sq foot home
https://compareelectricity.com/locat...Grand%20Rapids

Coal is the main source of electricity generation with half of Grand Rapids residents using it as their main source of electricity

3 nuclear power plants supply nearly 30% of the electricity generation

This would make for lower electricity rates. However, my research has found that Michigan rates are higher than the regional average. Michigan does have a fair amount of solar and wind generation but without government subsidies they can't really compete nor generate enough electricity to serve Michigan's needs.
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Old 02-04-2022, 01:52 PM   #78
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Unfortunately politics, not science, rule when it comes to sensible power generation in this country.
DING DING DING Winner Winner, Chicken Dinner. It takes 20 year to build a nuke plant in the states, majority of this has to do with inspections, regulations, more inspections, more planning, more inspections, and by the time they are done, they have exceeded the budget by 3 times the original plan.

I agree, they should take one plan that works and use it all around. Saves time, saves money. President Trump was trying to get all this trimmed down to speed up the processes behind building plants, to get it from 20 years down to 5 by eliminating a lot of the red tape, but from what I heard, not confirmed yet, that all got eliminated Jan 20/2021.

The most obvious answer to the climate agenda is the one tossed on the floor. I wouldn't put it past all those Poli's that they have hands deep in the solar and wind cookie jars and why they push those over tried and true.
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Old 02-04-2022, 04:30 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Reverse_snowbird View Post
Since burning propane doesn't produce methane like natural gas does, a ban on propane appliances wouldn't make much sense.

They seem to be concerned about the level of methane in houses from natural gas stoves, but I'm not sure I buy that.
. . . that's a problem with the Internet and believing every bit of gossip/opinion as fact . . .

Natural Gas IS methane. Methane is a serious Greenhouse gas. When you burn methane (or propane) it produces CO2 which is a also a Greenhouse Gas, but about 1/80 th of the "effect" of CO2. From a Greenhouse gas standpoint burning Methane and making C02 makes sense rather than letting Methane loose in the atmosphere.

Now if we can find an efficient way of capturing the CO2 and getting it permanently sequestered . . .
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Old 02-04-2022, 04:38 PM   #80
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...President Trump was trying to get all this trimmed down to speed up the processes behind building plants, to get it from 20 years down to 5 by eliminating a lot of the red tape, but from what I heard, not confirmed yet, that all got eliminated Jan 20/2021.
Yeah, let's cut corners when we build nukes. I'm sure that will end well.
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