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Old 02-06-2022, 04:05 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by bikendan View Post
If there's an EMP burst, we may have more to worry about, than the nuclear reactor.
True, majority of us wont have any need for electricity since all our stuff not in a Faraday cage will be fried. Provided of course the stuff in a Faraday cage is completely isolated from any outside power source since its the power lines that carry the EMP beyond the originating source.
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Old 02-06-2022, 04:06 PM   #102
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Fukishima was flooded by the Tsunami. The plant itself was damaged by the flooding. Up TO that point, when the earthquake triggered the scram, the generators were running properly and the pumps were all at 100%.

This is one incident that you can't blanket on all reactors because majority of them aren't near a coast that will get hit like it did. Yes there are a few near the oceans, but are usually much higher and far less likely to be hit by a Tsunami.

You make good points though, an EMP/Solar flare could theoretically knock out power and could damage the generators as well preventing them from running the pumps. I would think they have contingency plans in that event. Heck if you thought of it, I would assume the brainiacs who built and designed these would have thought of it as well. I would at least HOPE they did.
Diesel driven pumps.
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Old 02-06-2022, 07:00 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Bhrava
Fukishima was flooded by the Tsunami. The plant itself was damaged by the flooding. Up TO that point, when the earthquake triggered the scram, the generators were running properly and the pumps were all at 100%.
Sure, because stuff works until it doesn't. Just like in RV's.

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This is one incident that you can't blanket on all reactors because majority of them aren't near a coast that will get hit like it did. Yes there are a few near the oceans, but are usually much higher and far less likely to be hit by a Tsunami.
You may be focusing on the failure mode rather than the failure effect.

I know a tsunami will not hit Lake Erie (absent a meteorite strike) yet Davis Besse near Toledo, OH came extremely close to a failure. Whether it would have stayed contained is something no one knows for certain. The presumption is that the corrosion in the reactor cap would have been detected and corrected well before it got serious and even the NRC admitted the part that held was not designed to do so.

6.63" of carbon steel corroded away and the only thing holding was a very thin layer of stainless steel. This was found during a reactor shutdown:

The licensee discovered a cavity with a surface area of approximately 20-30 square inches. Upon further examination, the licensee identified that the cavity extended completely through the 6.63 inch thick carbon steel RPV head down to a thin internal liner of stainless steel cladding. In this case, the cladding withstood the primary system pressure over the cavity region during operation. However, the cladding is not designed to perform this function.

https://www.nrc.gov/reactors/operati...l022760172.pdf

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You make good points though, an EMP/Solar flare could theoretically knock out power and could damage the generators as well preventing them from running the pumps. I would think they have contingency plans in that event. Heck if you thought of it, I would assume the brainiacs who built and designed these would have thought of it as well. I would at least HOPE they did.
The brainiacs are not the problem. It's the people making cost-benefit decisions. It was well known that in the ancient past tsunamis had gone higher than where the Fukushima reactors were located and someone decided the probability was low enough.

If this is a topic that interests you, get a copy of the book "We almost lost Detroit". It details how a sodium-cooled reactor near Detroit had a contained meltdown in the 1960's and also discusses the history of other notable nuclear reactor disasters. (Sodium reacts explosively with water.)

https://www.amazon.com/Almost-Lost-D.../dp/0425067009

And then go read how Bill Gates' is funding a sodium-cooled reactor right now. Sure, we've learned a lot technically in the past fifty years but when dealing with technologies with waste lifetimes of thousands of years, do we know enough? I don't think so.

https://thehill.com/changing-america...-nuclear-power

"The plant will feature a sodium-cooled fast reactor with a molten salt-based energy storage system capable of producing 345 megawatts of power, which is enough to serve about 250,000 homes."

The age-old saying of "Just because you can does not mean you should" is ignored way too often by man.

Ray
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Old 02-06-2022, 07:13 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Bhrava
True, majority of us wont have any need for electricity since all our stuff not in a Faraday cage will be fried. Provided of course the stuff in a Faraday cage is completely isolated from any outside power source since its the power lines that carry the EMP beyond the originating source.
Interestingly, an EMP event is not as bad as certain fiction (so far) books and others have made it out to be. I was in some groups focusing on resiliency and EMP is one of the areas addressed. There are a lot of "It depends" in the Real World (tm).

The issue, as usual, is whether precautions were taken, precautions that cost real money and may never be needed.

Some interesting reading: https://www.cisa.gov/sites/default/f...Guidelines.pdf

Page 13 and later have nice graphics depicting why an EMP is not an "all" situation unless the country is blanketed, as it may well be.

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Old 02-07-2022, 09:54 AM   #105
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Interestingly, an EMP event is not as bad as certain fiction (so far) books and others have made it out to be. I was in some groups focusing on resiliency and EMP is one of the areas addressed. There are a lot of "It depends" in the Real World (tm).

The issue, as usual, is whether precautions were taken, precautions that cost real money and may never be needed.

Some interesting reading: https://www.cisa.gov/sites/default/f...Guidelines.pdf

Page 13 and later have nice graphics depicting why an EMP is not an "all" situation unless the country is blanketed, as it may well be.

Ray
Yes. EMP would have to happen across the country to have any real impact. From what I read, only the general area targeted would have full impact, outlying areas would only be impacted by what travels down the electric wires, for up to 30 miles or so, and then only devices plugged in at the time would be impacted. Basically EMP is a massive power surge at that point, so if your stuff is protected by really good surge protectors, they might survive.

Solar flares though, different story, If one is large enough to have an impact, it will be large enough to impact a very large section of the planet. Those are the ones that can take down the power grid, but wouldn't cause enough damage to affect the backup systems, provided they were offline at the time.

EMP would only affect electronics though, with the micro circuits, the excess current jumps the connections essentially frying everything, but non electronics will survive, such as solenoids, motors, etc. While none of my cars would run, my Kubota tractor has NO electronics other than the PCB for the instrument cluster for lighting and the Tach. It would run just fine since it is all mechanical injection.

Oh, one other thought, a Solar Flare is more of a disruption than a disabler. Majority of stuff would just need to be unplugged or powered down and rebooted. Really sensitive stuff could be damaged, but most would survive.
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Old 02-07-2022, 11:19 AM   #106
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There's much talk of EMP and its effects but very little of "hardening" (protecting) methods.

It's as simple as shielding electrical systems with metal shields cinnected to an earth ground.

Military and government facilities have been doing this for decades. Foreign countries like South Korea and Israel have put lots of effort into hardening their power grids.

Here in the US, not so much as it has a high cost associated with it. Power utilities here are profit driven and in some cases don't even maintain systems to withstand wind storms. Look at the fires caused in California by lines blown down.

A nuclear power plant with backup generators has no doubt included EMP protection.

FWIW a close friend who is a journeyman electrician (ret) worked on a FEMA facility nearby and described to me all the extra work they performed to harden the facility's electrical system.

There are protections against EMP. Your car may stop dead but I seriously doubt that a Nuclear power plant will.
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Old 02-07-2022, 12:41 PM   #107
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Basically EMP is a massive power surge at that point, so if your stuff is protected by really good surge protectors, they might survive.
The difference between a "regular" power surge and an EMP pulse is the rise time of the waveform. The rise time of an EMP pulse is far faster than a regular power surge and the MOV devices do not react anywhere near fast enough. Yes, there are EMP "surge protectors" but you're not buying them at Best Buy.

EDIT: But apparently you can buy them from Amazon, of course.

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=emp+prote...ref=nb_sb_noss

I find the lack of shielding on the connecting wires interesting. But they do offer insurance and even moneyback guarantees! Of course, how would you file a claim with all of your stuff fried by an EMP? That's the perfect business model for sure.

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Old 02-07-2022, 12:45 PM   #108
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FWIW a close friend who is a journeyman electrician (ret) worked on a FEMA facility nearby and described to me all the extra work they performed to harden the facility's electrical system.

There are protections against EMP. Your car may stop dead but I seriously doubt that a Nuclear power plant will.
All you need to do is look at the Davis Besse PDF. The whole thing falls apart when people take shortcuts to save money or do not maintain the equipment after it's installed. In the last year I read of the conviction of a person who sold EMP certified chips to the US Military and it turned out they were cheap Chinese knock-offs with no EMP protection. But they are already installed in a lot of equipment.

Then you have the issue of the different requirements in other countries. I have no doubt some are better than the US and some are worse. And that people in all countries take money-saving shortcuts.

Then there is this 2019 article: https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/w...r-power-plants

Tucked into the back of a new report from the Electromagnetic Defense Task Force compiled to highlight the EMP threat to U.S. infrastructure and military installations, the nation’s nuclear regulators admitted that the electric generating plants are not prepared for an attack.

The report: https://www.airuniversity.af.edu/Por...RCE_2_2019.PDF

See Appendix 1, which contains this statement from 2018:

In 2018, the Electromagnetic Defense Task Force (EDTF) identified potentially major concerns relating to the safety of US nuclear power stations in the event of an EMP. In particular, two primary issues were raised: The first was the sparsity of literature addressing the topic of how an EMP may interact with nuclear power stations, and the second was the total absence of any physical testing data to validate the assumptions made by the few studies on the subject.

From 2018? How many new nuclear plants have been designed and built in the USA in the last three years? Zero.

Of course, if the Big One drops nearby I won't have to worry about a nuclear plant going into an uncontained meltdown. That's my prepper plan.

Ray
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Old 02-07-2022, 01:15 PM   #109
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The difference between a "regular" power surge and an EMP pulse is the rise time of the waveform. The rise time of an EMP pulse is far faster than a regular power surge and the MOV devices do not react anywhere near fast enough. Yes, there are EMP "surge protectors" but you're not buying them at Best Buy.

EDIT: But apparently you can buy them from Amazon, of course.

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=emp+prote...ref=nb_sb_noss

I find the lack of shielding on the connecting wires interesting. But they do offer insurance and even moneyback guarantees! Of course, how would you file a claim with all of your stuff fried by an EMP? That's the perfect business model for sure.

Ray
Like I said, a really good one.
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Old 02-08-2022, 06:15 AM   #110
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All you need to do is look at the Davis Besse PDF. The whole thing falls apart when people take shortcuts to save money or do not maintain the equipment after it's installed. In the last year I read of the conviction of a person who sold EMP certified chips to the US Military and it turned out they were cheap Chinese knock-offs with no EMP protection. But they are already installed in a lot of equipment.

Then you have the issue of the different requirements in other countries. I have no doubt some are better than the US and some are worse. And that people in all countries take money-saving shortcuts.

Then there is this 2019 article: https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/w...r-power-plants

Tucked into the back of a new report from the Electromagnetic Defense Task Force compiled to highlight the EMP threat to U.S. infrastructure and military installations, the nation’s nuclear regulators admitted that the electric generating plants are not prepared for an attack.

The report: https://www.airuniversity.af.edu/Por...RCE_2_2019.PDF

See Appendix 1, which contains this statement from 2018:

In 2018, the Electromagnetic Defense Task Force (EDTF) identified potentially major concerns relating to the safety of US nuclear power stations in the event of an EMP. In particular, two primary issues were raised: The first was the sparsity of literature addressing the topic of how an EMP may interact with nuclear power stations, and the second was the total absence of any physical testing data to validate the assumptions made by the few studies on the subject.

From 2018? How many new nuclear plants have been designed and built in the USA in the last three years? Zero.

Of course, if the Big One drops nearby I won't have to worry about a nuclear plant going into an uncontained meltdown. That's my prepper plan.

Ray
Not sure when construction began but Southern Electric is about to finish up the Voltire (if spelling is correct) nuclear plant...pretty good company for investors too!
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Old 02-08-2022, 06:30 AM   #111
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Electric works for me, but I live in SC and we might see the Teens or the 20's several times during the winter, rest of the time, 30s, 40s, etc.
Yea heat pumps pretty much suck when it reaches the 20s, they seem to run a lot!
I temper the cost of that by using solar panels. Since Im on one of the highest cost power grids in the Southeast, I would get raped each month in the winter if I didnt have them.



Gas heat is a LOT LOT LOT more warmer, a heat pump just gives you mediocre warmth and gets the job done in my region but its like the whole gas vs Diesel towing argument...in which on definitely gets the job done while the other just gets the job done.


If folks went all electric in northern climates, it would work but I would hate to see their electric bills, even when the threshold for "cheap power" is 10 cents a KW, So each home would need something like 20-30 200 watt panels or better to cost average everything down throughout the year
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Old 02-08-2022, 08:42 AM   #112
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Electric works for me, but I live in SC and we might see the Teens or the 20's several times during the winter, rest of the time, 30s, 40s, etc.
Yea heat pumps pretty much suck when it reaches the 20s, they seem to run a lot!
I temper the cost of that by using solar panels. Since Im on one of the highest cost power grids in the Southeast, I would get raped each month in the winter if I didnt have them.



Gas heat is a LOT LOT LOT more warmer, a heat pump just gives you mediocre warmth and gets the job done in my region but its like the whole gas vs Diesel towing argument...in which on definitely gets the job done while the other just gets the job done.


If folks went all electric in northern climates, it would work but I would hate to see their electric bills, even when the threshold for "cheap power" is 10 cents a KW, So each home would need something like 20-30 200 watt panels or better to cost average everything down throughout the year
Since March 2020 when we went to work from home, my "office" is in the basement, in my workshop. During the winter I have a 1500 watt heater under my desk I use maybe once a day to warm up with. Last 2 years we used a 1500 watt heater to warm up a converted garage next to the kitchen. This year I installed a Pellet stove in that room. Already seeing a $100 a month reduction in electrical use. In addition also saw a nearly 300 gallon drop in LP use over the same period the past few years.

Electric AND gas use for heating is expensive. It costs us so far this year $2900 to fill the LP tank, 1200 gallons. I used one ton of pellets so far, $250 a ton. I plan to install a pellet stove in the basement and vent it through the existing fireplace. If it does what I expect it to, it should reduce LP use by 80%, and cost us ~ $1000 a season to heat the house instead of $3400 as usual. I keep the house at 68*.
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Old 02-08-2022, 09:58 AM   #113
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As was already stated, if EMP were a factor in our lifetime, we have bigger factors to worry about.
On a side note, and not really related because it is fiction, check out a book called “The Second After”, which does give (imho) a great prediction on how quickly society devolves after an EMP strike.
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Old 02-08-2022, 12:13 PM   #114
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Will this thread has gone to the LEFT FIELD in a HURRY!
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Old 02-08-2022, 01:11 PM   #115
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I guess I'll need to stop eating beans or maybe I'll "can" my farts for future use....now just need to figure out a way to compress all that "gas" without letting it out of the can lest I be fined for illegal methane emissions.


There! Back to the root of this thread!
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Old 02-08-2022, 01:24 PM   #116
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As was already stated, if EMP were a factor in our lifetime, we have bigger factors to worry about.
The point I apparently failed to make was that it does not matter how the power goes out for a long time. The effects matter.

I just read an article on how scientists found the Earth got blasted by a Coronal Mass Ejection, essentially a natural EMP but with different waveforms, in the distant past. Not the Carrington Event, though. This one apparently occurred during a Solar Minimum when CMEs were thought to be impossible.

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On a side note, and not really related because it is fiction, check out a book called “The Second After”, which does give (imho) a great prediction on how quickly society devolves after an EMP strike.
I read it. It's kind of a rip-off of "Alas, Babylon!" but yes, both focus on how fast things go bad when the power goes off for a long time.

The initial scary issue was the loss of electricity meant that insulin could no longer be refrigerated if it could even be found.

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Old 02-08-2022, 01:27 PM   #117
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I guess I'll need to stop eating beans or maybe I'll "can" my farts for future use....now just need to figure out a way to compress all that "gas" without letting it out of the can lest I be fined for illegal methane emissions.
Too late. Someone already did it but apparently she suffered significant health problems because of what she was eating: https://www.insider.com/reality-star...as-nfts-2022-1

Made enough for a good down payment on a DP, though.

Learn from her mistakes.

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Old 02-08-2022, 01:45 PM   #118
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Too late. Someone already did it but apparently she suffered significant health problems because of what she was eating: https://www.insider.com/reality-star...as-nfts-2022-1

Made enough for a good down payment on a DP, though.

Learn from her mistakes.

Ray

BTW, my DW loves that show but, I digress...

I'm old and wouldn't have to work that hard at it, it just comes naturally.....get it....natural...gas?
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Old 02-08-2022, 02:14 PM   #119
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Man I had a Extinction event release this morning. Don't know WHAT I ate last night, but the cat's scattered, the dog whined, and my wife ran screaming from the room.

Anyone remember that TV show REvolution where nanites sucked up all the power? I guess people were too stupid to figure out how to get a diesel engine to run. LOL It wasn't until about the 3rd season where steam power was back.
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Old 02-08-2022, 08:25 PM   #120
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So...gas cooking appliances are the least of our worries then?
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