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Old 01-29-2020, 12:42 PM   #1
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Advice on Deep-Cycle Battery

We dry camp about 10 weekends a year in the spring. Previously, I have been purchasing marine batteries from Walmart and they usually last a couple of years or so. I read on "The 12volt Side of Life" web page that marine batteries are not necessarily deep cycle batteries. We are getting ready to start our spring dry camping and need to get another battery. My 2008 Surveyor fifth wheel's battery compartment will only hold one 12 volt battery, otherwise I would be looking at installing two 6 volt golf cart batteries. What deep cycle battery brands have you used (and liked) and about how much should I expect to pay for one?
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Old 01-29-2020, 12:46 PM   #2
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Myself I have two actual deep cycle interstate batteries on my rig and have gotten very good service out of them. The true deep cycle battery has a much larger sediment chamber the the starting type batteries.
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Old 01-29-2020, 12:53 PM   #3
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If you can only get one in there, consider a 12V Trojan golf cart battery or an AGM.



We used one of these on our slide in camper where you could only fit one battery.
https://www.amazon.com/Vmaxtanks-Vma...0320362&sr=8-1
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Old 01-29-2020, 02:37 PM   #4
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I bought 2 6 volt AGM CG batteries. We dry camp for two weeks and run off a 2000 watt Yamaha inverter to recharge.

The best part of the AGM is that I can leave them in the trailer all during the camping season as I have a 100 watt solar panel just to recharge during storage (outdoors). No checking for water level. I,m also not too cool with having my head that close to the battery while trying to top up the water.

The second best thing about AGM batteries is that it can take a higher charge current so charging is also faster. I use a car charger and disconnect the RV charger. This seems to work best as the RV charge unit is at the opposite end of the trailer and takes forever to charge the batteries.

Trojan makes good batteries but I bought ones made in China. One Chinese plant seems to brand product for several distributors here. I surmised this as the data sheets were almost identical. I charge at 25 amps for the series pair. The max charge rate is 55 amps.

I used the set up all last year and it worked the way I wanted.

Just as an aside the AGM batteries charge to 14.1 volts which is higher than the 13.8 on the flooded dual purpose. I will never go back to flooded. I also fond that lithium is too expensive for my needs. I hope this helps.

Not subscribed so message if you want more info.
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Old 01-29-2020, 03:44 PM   #5
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If you do not get 3-5 years out of a battery then likely the issue is the lack of a battery monitor, or doing routine maintenance, or a faulty converter.

Most of which would be resolved with a battery monitor.

Discharging a battery too much is bad for them.

I would try measuring the space very carefully to see if there is a way to install 2 6 volt batteries with a new box perhaps.

Another alternative is a lithium battery. One 100 amp one would do it. $1000 vs $200 for two sixes.

Six volt batteries are made with the same materials however have larger cells with thicker plates. That translates into more abuse tolerance.
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Old 01-29-2020, 05:29 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by tomkatb View Post
If you do not get 3-5 years out of a battery then likely the issue is the lack of a battery monitor, or doing routine maintenance, or a faulty converter.

Most of which would be resolved with a battery monitor.

Discharging a battery too much is bad for them.

I would try measuring the space very carefully to see if there is a way to install 2 6 volt batteries with a new box perhaps.

Another alternative is a lithium battery. One 100 amp one would do it. $1000 vs $200 for two sixes.

Six volt batteries are made with the same materials however have larger cells with thicker plates. That translates into more abuse tolerance.
And get a monitor that measures the amount of current in and out of the battery. A monitor that just measures voltage is essentially worthless.


A 6V golf cart battery has the exact same cycle vs discharge life as a 12V golf cart battery. Look up the Trojan specs and you will see that. Nothing magical about 6V vs 12V if they are from the same manufacturer, same chemistry and same construction.
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Old 01-30-2020, 11:45 AM   #7
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Get an Interstate SRM Marine/RV Deep Cycle battery in the biggest series size that will fit in your compartment.
They last me about 5 years, cost $100 each, and I abuse the hell out of them as we primarily boondock and I don't baby them. But I do pay attention to water levels, recharge them daily when boondocking, and keep them clean.
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Old 01-30-2020, 03:00 PM   #8
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Short Lifespan

Echoing others...
The short lifespan on your marine battery suggests a systems problem or abuse.

If you have a systems problem, you'll ruin new batteries just as quickly as the old. Get the right tools to check it and verify that it's not ruining your batteries. Others touched on this well, so I won't repeat.

My hunch? Let's assume "abuse", because that's most likely.

Abuse comes generally in two forms.
1) Most common is discharging too deeply. The typical deep cycle battery can deliver about half of its rated amp hours before needing to be recharged. So a group 24, the most basic that comes with most RVs, is rated around 75 amp hours at a certain rate of discharge (see below). You get to use only 35 to 40 amp hours without harming the battery. Bigger batteries hold more, but the rules are the same...you get half. The battery keeps half.

2) Poor maintenance - failure to keep it charged (sitting around dead is bad); failure to keep it full of distilled water. A heavily exercised battery goes through LOTS of charge and discharge cycles during a camping season. All that activity can (I didn't say will, I said CAN) "boil" off the electrolyte (boil is a deliberate exaggeration). And evaporation is a factor in vented batteries 24/7. I top off my battery bank about 4 times a summer...at minimum. As you know, if the plates on the battery are exposed to any degree for any significant amount of time, you run the risk of ruining the battery.

So there it is. If you manage the battery properly, even a Walmart marine battery will give good service for 5 years or more. Your experience suggests "abuse."

Now, a fiver with a single 12 volt battery? WHAT? That is a recipe for disaster. Ludicrous! A fiver needs lots of power. Even a single 12 volt golf cart battery will be taxed to its limits trying to keep up with the draws from fiver-sized loads. Furnace, water pump, ignition for the fridge and hot water heater, lights, entertainment (?), exhaust fans (at the stove, bathroom, fantastic fan), parasitic draws, and who knows what else. But the furnace alone is a real load--even in a small fiver - 5 to 10 amps or more when running. You're stuffing 10 pounds of loads into a 5 pound battery!

So, assuming your rig isn't ruining your battery, you need to do some math. Get out your manuals and determine your draws. Use this calculator tool.
https://www.rapidtables.com/calc/ele...alculator.html
Also understand that voltage is ALWAYS 12 volts even if you are running a 120 volt appliance through an inverter, because when you're boondocking on battery, the ultimate power source is always 12 volts.

Quick illustration. I use a small inverter to run a 120 volt, 360 watt electric blanket for 15 to 20 minutes to take the chill off the bed. This is a HUGE load on the battery. Plug in 12 volts and 360 watts into the calculator and you get 30 amps!! Run that blanket for just over an hour and the entire usable capacity of a group 24 battery is gone! 15 minutes at that rate = about 8 amp hours (allowing for inefficiencies in the inverter, etc.

Do your math and recognize that your poor, solo little battery is outmatched by the rig. Even a Trojan AGM Group 31 12 volt is only rated at 100 amp hours at the 20 hour rate (the normal rate used for this calculation), and that means you get to use about 50 of those amp hours. Period, end of story.
https://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/da...ata_Sheets.pdf

As you know, I'm "accusing you of abuse of battery"...a common practice and certainly likely when a fiver is sucking off a single 12 volt teat. This is a very common mistake, and I'm not really accusing.

The good news is that "Golf Cart" batteries CAN be (not necessarily are) more tolerant of deeper discharges. Some as much as 80% instead of 50%. LiFePo batteries (think megabucks) most definitely are more tolerant, but they typically require upgrades to your charging system, because they tend not to like the garden variety junk supplied for flooded cell batteries.
https://www.google.com/search?q=life...hrome&ie=UTF-8

Again, assuming your fiver's charging system isn't the culprit, the "right answer" is to find a way to cram 2 x 6 volt golf cart batteries somewhere in the rig. Wire's cheap, and you could, for example, put the batteries into the storage compartment up under the overhang, between the landing legs. You'd need to vent the space, but it might be worth the effort. 2 x 6 volt golf cart batteries combined will have a rated capacity around 230 AH, and you get to use about 115 of those.

Next, spend $600 and put 400 watts of solar on the roof so you don't need to listen to the generator for hours on end. https://www.amazon.com/Renogy-Monocr...0411342&sr=8-2
Windy Nation makes good stuff, too.

Next, if your rig has incandescent bulbs, change them for LEDs on all interior and exterior "camping" lights (don't worry about the road lights).
Next, if you're serious about boondocking, install a "kill switch" into the power feeds to the stereo/DVD player, TV, and so on. If you MUST be entertained, get a bluetooth speaker, or turn on the stereo briefly while listening. But these devices add significant parasitic loads that are on 24/7...so much so that homeowners are encourage to disconnect these things with power strips when not in use.
Finally, don't run ANYTHING requiring 120 volts through an inverter unless you want to watch your battery's capacity evaporate in minutes (see electric blanket example above.)

Here's the fact. Batteries SUCK as energy storage devices. The facts of life if you will.
~ The gold standard - 4 x 6 volt golf cart batteries - has a usable capacity of 230 amp hours.
~ 230 amp hours equals an energy equivalent of 2.76 kilowatt hours: https://www.inchcalculator.com/ah-to-kwh-calculator/
~ Propane contains 91,000 BTU per gallon. So a 5 gallon tank (about 4.5 actual gallons) contains 409,500 BTU. https://www.google.com/search?q=prop...hrome&ie=UTF-8
~ Your 5 gallon propane tank contains the energy equivalent of 120 KWH. https://www.google.com/search?q=conv...hrome&ie=UTF-8
~ One puny 5 gallon tank of propane contains 43 times the energy of the gold standard battery bank.
~ And that's true of a $2000 pair of LiFePos, too.
BATTERIES SUCK as energy storage devices. If you're into boondocking, you're well advised to know your loads and manage your batteries (plural intentional) carefully.

One last tip. If you're boondocking, SETUP AND RUN THE GENERATOR to power the landing legs, slides, and other large 12 volt loads when setting up. Leave the genny running as you finish setup. Listen to the "converter" inside. If the fan is running, it's charging at a high rate. Don't turn off the genny at least until the fan shuts off on the converter...a sign that the charge rate has stepped down. If you have that nice solar kit on the roof, it will take over from there. BUT, 400 WATTS OF SOLAR WILL ONLY PROVIDE ABOUT 120 AMP HOURS OF CHARGE PER DAY under ideal conditions (e.g. Sunny Colorado). Clouds, shade, spring and fall days with lower sun angle, and so on will reduce that output. And every amp hour counts, whether consumed during the day or night...the panels put out 120 amp hours, that's it, that's all. So power the jacks and slides with your genny.

End of rant. Oh yeah, who in hell designed a fiver with room for only one battery?? It's time to call in the firing squad.
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Old 01-30-2020, 03:14 PM   #9
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I doubt if you can find a higher build quality than Lifeline. They are used by the military. Two years after buying my MH (new), I replaced the factory ones with Lifeline and they FAR outperformed the ones that came from FR. They last longer between charges, and recharge faster. That was three years ago and they still perform like they did on day one.

They are not cheap, be sure to shop around! I think I saved $100 each by shopping. No matter what you get, buy the largest AH capacity that will physically fit in your space. And as others say all the time on this forum, get something like the Victron BMS-712 that many of use and are very happy with.

https://lifelinebatteries.com/
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Old 01-30-2020, 03:25 PM   #10
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Old 01-30-2020, 06:22 PM   #11
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Keep in mind that you cannot "monitor" the charge level in a lithium battery like you can a standard. Everything I found said that it can show full power and 2 minutes later it is dead. That might be changeable if you have an actual "use rate" monitoring system similar to a cell phone or tablet.
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Old 01-30-2020, 09:32 PM   #12
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You CAN monitor the state of charge on a lithium...with a shunt based monitor that knows the capacity in amp hours of your battery then monitors amphours in and amphours out to determine your NET state of charge. Monitoring VOLTAGE does no good as you state. It does little good in a wet cell battery too!
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Old 01-31-2020, 12:16 AM   #13
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Battery

I tried the AGM battery prior and did not feel I got any longer life out of it than I did my Interstate group 31 deep cycle.The group 31 fits in the same space but, gives you about 10% more amps. The deep cycles have thicker plates to withstand more discharge cycles vs starter batteries. In my experience it did not prove worth the additional double the price for the AGM. The key is not pulling them below 50%. We have a V-front and carry an extra battery and exchange batteries and use a portable 100 watt solar to recharge. For 3 day weekends, the 100 watt solar and one group 31 worked for us.
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Old 01-31-2020, 12:31 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Phil 179 View Post
Keep in mind that you cannot "monitor" the charge level in a lithium battery like you can a standard. Everything I found said that it can show full power and 2 minutes later it is dead. That might be changeable if you have an actual "use rate" monitoring system similar to a cell phone or tablet.
You obviously have never owned a LiFePO4 battery.
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Old 01-31-2020, 12:59 AM   #15
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Ask a person who says their RV Marine battery lasts 5 years how much capacity they still have. Unless you know how much capacity you have left, there is no way you know if your battery is ready to be replaced or not. Some people will just run their generators all day and say their batteries are still good!
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Old 01-31-2020, 09:51 AM   #16
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I like the pair of golf cart batts I got from Lowe's, they are Deka Pro Master GC15. The Lowe's site has specs that are off. Here they are directly from East Penn, who makes this battery. Each battery is 64 lbs, heavy buggers.
https://www.eastpennmanufacturing.co...Flyer-0248.pdf
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Old 01-31-2020, 10:20 AM   #17
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I have a pair of Group 31 AGMs that I bought at Sam's Club. They have lasted 4 years and over 750 camping days. I keep a "smart charger" on them when we are camped and at home. The only time the charger is not on is while we are towing. I have the batteries isolated from the camper when hooked to shore power.
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Old 01-31-2020, 10:41 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by jimmoore13 View Post
Echoing others...
End of rant. Oh yeah, who in hell designed a fiver with room for only one battery?? It's time to call in the firing squad.
Well said! Good information.
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Old 01-31-2020, 10:49 AM   #19
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I replace my cheap lead acids when either they won't run my heater fan all night or the battery tester says they are bad. These two criteria usually happen about the same time; 4.5 to 5 years. We average about 5 hours a day of generator time when boondocking. This is usually the amount of time we need 110 for coffee pots, blow dryer, microwave and TV watching. Just happens to charge the batteries at the same time.
You can spend as much or as little as you like on batteries and charging systems and get the same end result, which is running what you need, when you need it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by babock View Post
Ask a person who says their RV Marine battery lasts 5 years how much capacity they still have. Unless you know how much capacity you have left, there is no way you know if your battery is ready to be replaced or not. Some people will just run their generators all day and say their batteries are still good!
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Old 01-31-2020, 12:04 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by NJKris View Post
I like the pair of golf cart batts I got from Lowe's, they are Deka Pro Master GC15. The Lowe's site has specs that are off. Here they are directly from East Penn, who makes this battery. Each battery is 64 lbs, heavy buggers.
https://www.eastpennmanufacturing.co...Flyer-0248.pdf

x2 on East Penn batteries. Running an AGM in one Jeep, damn thing can sit for 2 months, and still plenty of power to start. Had a great customer service experience with them several years ago, too. Replaced a battery for free, didn't even ask for a receipt or anything.
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