Advanced electrical question

[fella10]

Originally Posted by CedarCreekWoody

This is crazy, and crazy dangerous. You have the right idea on how to gain that extra 15 amps by using an extension cord. I do that to power my water heater element. There are several posts on the forum about how readers have done similar things.

X2 .... CCWoody is right, and after you get the extension cord to the inside of your unit, there are any number of ways those extra amps can be used to assist the 30A system, ... water heater, small electric heaters in winter(we do that), and can even be used to power the ac in summer(but that's a whole different discussion and much more complicated), ... the goal being to safely remove some amps from the 30A system, ... if you've ever tripped the 30A breaker on the cg power pole at 10 o'clock at night, during a rain storm, you'll appreciate the idea of using an extension cord for a few extra amps ...

[rockfordroo]

It sounds to me like he is simply feeding his normal 30 amp TT circuits using one side of the 50 amp connector (say, L1), which is no different than using a 30-to-50 amp adapter, and he is then using the other side (L2) to supply his added 15 amp circuit. So essentially, his 15 amp circuit is "replacing" the 2nd 50 amp circuit in a "real" 50 amp TT.

I only see two issues:

1. His normal 30 amp circuit is only protected at the pedestal by the pedestals 50 amp circuit breaker. However, this is no different than a 30 amp TT using a 30-to-50 amp adapter, so I don't really see it as an issue. (Of course, it opens us to the debate we've seen here on the forum concerning any kind of short in the power cord that somehow causes a current flow of >30 amps but < 50 amps between the pedestal and the TT.)

2. His 15 amp circuit is only protected by the 50 amp breaker at the pedestal UNLESS he's added his own 15 amp breaker, which I did not see discussed (unless I missed it).

[5picker]

Originally Posted by llr

TranseX2, The OP is not talking about upgrading to 50A but combining lines to get more then 30A into a 30A RV.

Agreed.
While the information in TranseX2's post was somewhat informative (and a bit condescending) it really isn't what the OP eluded to.

Converting a 30a shore power service to a 50a shore power service has been discussed in detail in other posts.

[tlspencer]

Originally Posted by CedarCreekWoody

This is crazy, and crazy dangerous. You have the right idea on how to gain that extra 15 amps by using an extension cord. I do that to power my water heater element. There are several posts on the forum about how readers have done similar things.

When I had a canvas sided popup, we used the campers 30amp cord so we could run the AC or space heater (we never used the stupid tiny useless fridge) and then would run a heavy duty extension cord from the 15 to a 6 outlet surge protector for little stuff like a small TV and DVD player, and two LED lights run to each end of the bunks. Also used it for phone/tablet charging.
It only took one time fumbling around blind in the pitch darkness after tripping a circuit to realize we couldn't have TWO space heaters running at the same time, even if they weren't on a high setting. Electric blankets took the place of one of the space heaters and we use them now in our A Frame, along with that same ONE space heater. Yes, I am one of those people who will insist on using the electricity I am paying for rather than propane for heating.

[tlspencer]

Originally Posted by fella10

X2 .... CCWoody is right, and after you get the extension cord to the inside of your unit, there are any number of ways those extra amps can be used to assist the 30A system, ... water heater, small electric heaters in winter(we do that), and can even be used to power the ac in summer(but that's a whole different discussion and much more complicated), ... the goal being to safely remove some amps from the 30A system, ... if you've ever tripped the 30A breaker on the cg power pole at 10 o'clock at night, during a rain storm, you'll appreciate the idea of using an extension cord for a few extra amps ...

THANK you for that first pic of the mod for the extension cord! I have been telling my husband I want to do EXACTLY this so we can more easily connect while the camper is at home. Currently I run it through the storage door and into the interior through an access door inside which leaves the access door hanging open. We don't need it extremely often but when I do, I worry about the fact that it's left the welcome mat out with an open door for critters.

[5picker]

Originally Posted by jsj248

A friend of mine who owns a similar RV (28 RKS) which is equipped with a 30 amp service and a power management system "Claims" he upgraded his cord to a 50 amp and added a standard 110V-15 amp plug in-line with the 30 amp service plug. When camping, he plugs both the 30amp plug and the 110v- 15amp plug into the pedestal. He indicated he can then bring 45 amps into the rig with no problems? I do basic electricity but this is above my head. Would this not effect the power management device? Is there an additional 15 amps available at the pedestal? I can see how this can be considered fraudulent when only paying for 30 amp and I do not intend to do this, however, I wondered if this is possible? The other consideration I though would be "back feeding" 30 amps into a 15amp outlet? Thank you as always for your input.

Again everyone... we really don't know the whole story here.
I'm reading the OP totally different than many of you and until we know EXACTLY what is/was done we are all making guesses... but since we are guessing... here is mine... theories in colors...

he upgraded his cord to a 50 amp

This means to me he added a cord capable of carrying 50 amps. We don't know if it is a 50a R/V cord (4 wire) or just a heavier 3 wire cord than the original 30a shore power cord capable of 50a. (such as # 4 SOW cord)

and added a standard 110V-15 amp plug in-line with the 30 amp service plug

Notice the word "in-line".. to me this means the 15a hot leg/neutral is connected to the 30a hot leg/neutral.

When camping, he plugs both the 30amp plug and the 110v- 15amp plug into the pedestal. He indicated he can then bring 45 amps into the rig with no problems?

I take this to mean that both the 30 amp plug and the 15a plug (connected to the SAME wires within the cord) when plugged in together, presumably provide 45a of current to the R/V.
I'm speculating they did NOTHING to the factory breaker box. They are merely 'trying' to feed 45a of power to the 30a box. Oh boy!

Whether this is correct or not is anyone's guess and that is just what we are doing.

[cavie]

Originally Posted by formerFR

I may be in agreement with you, but explain further why you would think that "it will light up like the 4th of July".... as the question I have would be 'why' would you think they are not on the same 'phase'?
Any typical adapter that uses two different power outlets has to assume the same...

In a typical properly wired campground pedestal, the 50 amp outlet is in fact 240 volts L1 to L2. They are not on the same phase. If you plug in a 50/30 dogbone you will get only 1 hot leg. Typically L1. L2 is not used. L1/50 amps is connected to the hot leg of the 30 amp cord. You still get only 30 amps because of the 30 amp 120-volt main breaker in your rig.

If you used a 30/50 amp dogbone you would get Two 30 amp legs to your panel both on the same phase. typicly L1 120 volts. Both on the same 30 amp breaker from the panel.

[formerFR]

[QUOTE=rockfordroo;1953698]It sounds to me like he is simply feeding his normal 30 amp TT circuits using one side of the 50 amp connector (say, L1)...QUOTE]

no, he certainly is not. The OP explained that he is PLUGGING INTO a 30amp and 15/20amp outlet, NOT a 50amp double-pole two-phase RV service outlet.
He simply 'adapted' the 50amp male end into TWO different male ends.

[formerFR]

it looks like we're all having a lot of fun 'assuming' we know what he did, and conversing and disagreeing about it... but, yes, I doubt it's actually the way it was portrayed. : )

[cavie]

[QUOTE=formerFR;1953739]

Originally Posted by rockfordroo

It sounds to me like he is simply feeding his normal 30 amp TT circuits using one side of the 50 amp connector (say, L1)...QUOTE]

no, he certainly is not. The OP explained that he is PLUGGING INTO a 30amp and 15/20amp outlet, NOT a 50amp double-pole two-phase RV service outlet.
He simply 'adapted' the 50amp male end into TWO different male ends.

and in doing so if plugged into a 20 amp GFI it won't work

[formerFR]

while that's the common understanding for 'off the shelf' adapters, in this case, the owner or op did not say that it was a GFCI type....we are only 'assuming' that...

crazy, as I've seen many campground and rv parks with standard outlets....

maybe the owner will actually come online and let us know 'exactly' how this all is working for him, and what he actually changed.

[fella10]

Originally Posted by tlspencer

THANK you for that first pic of the mod for the extension cord! .......

that is an RV Power Cord Hatch Cover(Amazon link below), identical to the one on the other side of the trailer used to store the propane hose, which is used to connect the propane grill, ... can be mounted most anywhere, but mounting it in the storage compartment door has proven to be the ideal place for us, ... ...

https://www.amazon.com/BRAND-CAMPER-...h%2Bcover&th=1

[tlspencer]

Originally Posted by fella10

that is an RV Power Cord Hatch Cover(Amazon link below), identical to the one on the other side of the trailer used to store the propane hose, which is used to connect the propane grill, ... can be mounted most anywhere, but mounting it in the storage compartment door has proven to be the ideal place for us, ... ...

https://www.amazon.com/BRAND-CAMPER-...h%2Bcover&th=1

Yep that's the one I've looked at. I think I'll just order it and do it while he's at work one day and see how long it takes him to notice.

[rockfordroo]

[QUOTE=formerFR;1953739]

Originally Posted by rockfordroo

It sounds to me like he is simply feeding his normal 30 amp TT circuits using one side of the 50 amp connector (say, L1)...QUOTE]

no, he certainly is not. The OP explained that he is PLUGGING INTO a 30amp and 15/20amp outlet, NOT a 50amp double-pole two-phase RV service outlet.
He simply 'adapted' the 50amp male end into TWO different male ends.

You're right, still not sure exactly what he did. jsj's color coding helped. Almost sounds now like he wired his 30 amp sevice to one line of the 50 amp cord (and not using the 2nd line), and is using the 30 amp cord for his 15 amp circuit instead of the usual "extension cord" that most others have used for their additional 15 amp circuit.

[Flybob]

Way to many things can go wrong with this idea. You are assuming how the two outlets are wired up in the pedestal. In addition many parks have series breakers where for example three 30A pedestals are protected upstream with a 100 A breaker. These modifications make it possible to trip the upstream breaker which is usually in a locked area requiring park staff to reset. I was at a park this summer where this happened. the two adjacent sites were without power for quite a few hours before the upstream breaker was reset. Needless to say the folks in the site with the non standard connection were not very popular.

[formerFR]

even if this is the case, how would anyone be able to aid in 'tripping' the Main 100amp breaker, which is well north of the 90amps of the 'downstream' outlet breakers?

What you might be saying is that the 100amp Main breaker provide protection for not only the 30amp outlets at each site, but also the 15/20amp outlets at each... that seems more plausible if someone was using both the 30amp and a 15/20 together, AND the other two sites were using close to their 30amp max...

most campgrounds and rv parks will tell you that more and more 'campers' are wanting more and more electricity for their needs... more and more of what we want to use is electrically powered, especially new 'All Electric' coaches. The more we move away from propane as a secondary power source, the more we will lean on the power Pedestals for all of our power needs.
And, while solar can help us when off-grid, it really doesn't impact the needs for power when we are plugged in - at least until more manufacturers see the need and start adding 'Hybrid' Inverters into our coaches, which can use both solar and electricity, at the same time.

[jsj248]

Talk about great information, you guys are amazing!!! As per my original post; he upgraded his cord (I don't know if its 4 strand 50 amp or just and increase in wire diameter). He does NOT have a power management system and as the most recent post said; he simply (maybe a bad choice of words) plugs the 110 15amp hot into the 110 30amp line and runs that to his panel.

I can see it is highly debated and also clearly risky on many plains. My takeaway from all the comments is to run a heavy duty extension to what ever may need more amps or reconfigure the whole system for 50 amp (2 incoming hots).

I don't need more than 30 right now but should I in the future; the pictures that were added to the post were perfect for an additional 15-20amps via "Heavy Duty" (10-12 gauge) extension.

THANK YOU for your comments. As always, this board is a wealth of good information and thankfully, kindly debate. Now, if we can only get those politicians to follow your example....... Stay safe.....

[Bama Rambler]

[QUOTE=cavie;1953747]

Originally Posted by formerFR

and in doing so if plugged into a 20 amp GFI it won't work

Keep in mind that this is not true for every GFCI. My Sis & BIL have a camp and when we take the RV over there, we plug into a outside 20 amp GFCI receptacle they have, and it works just fine. Basically we got lucky because I fully expected it to trip, either that one or one in the RV, but it never has. Granted that a good many GFCI's will trip when connected in series with another GFCI.

[CedarCreekWoody]

[QUOTE=Bama Rambler;1954009]

Originally Posted by cavie

Keep in mind that this is not true for every GFCI. My Sis & BIL have a camp and when we take the RV over there, we plug into a outside 20 amp GFCI receptacle they have, and it works just fine. Basically we got lucky because I fully expected it to trip, either that one or one in the RV, but it never has. Granted that a good many GFCI's will trip when connected in series with another GFCI.

The GFCI in my travel trailer gets along fine with the GFCI in my outdoor outlet at home, so I agree with Bama that the blanket statement is not always accurate. They work fine together but I know this is not always the case.