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Old 08-09-2022, 11:34 AM   #1
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Black Tank Sensors - puzzle

I know this subject has been beaten to death, but I couldn't find the answer I'm seeking, so here I am. I'm trying to understand more than fix in this case. I'm not sure the problem can be fixed.

We boondock exclusively, and we often stretch our black tank to at least 7 full days. If available, I'll use a nearby vault toilet for the truly nasty stuff, and that helps extend the stay.

My challenge:
I clean the hell out of my black tank when dumping...at home with a macerator pump. Full on pressure from a garden hose down the toilet while dumping...for about 5 minutes, the about 3 to 5 minutes using the black tank flush. When I'm done, the tank is "sparkling" clean...

When I start, the tank reads empty, and for the first day or two, the sensors read that it's filling progressively. No problem. By about the 4th day, it's reading about 2/3 full, then, suddenly, it reads full.

I'm fortunate that my toilet has a straight drop into the black tank, so I can shut off the pump, open the flush valve, and use a flashlight to get an accurate reading of where things actually stand. This works well, and I'm happly to continue monitoring this way.

The catch with the sensors is, however, that the empty tank shows about (guessing) 8" from the bottom of the flange into the tank to the bottom of the empty tank. At the end of the last trip, I still had about 1 1/2" to 2" of headroom above effluent to the bottom of the toilet flange into the tank. Yet the tank sensors were reading full for at least 3 days.

Note that, since we are dry camping, we don't flush much water into the tank, but MOST of what goes into the tank is urine and/or flush water. My wife doesn't use the vaults, but I ALWAYS do for pooping. So the amount of solids in the tank are relatively limited.

Assuming my sensors are clean and functioning as they should, is there any reason why this would be happening? Is it possible that the uppermost sensor is contaminated but doesn't trigger a full reading until the others are submerged?

Given that I can monitor effectively with a flashlight, I don't plan to fix this, but it sure would be nice to understand why this sensor system only kinda sorta works.
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Old 08-09-2022, 02:12 PM   #2
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Depends on where the "full" sensor is located on the tank, my experience it's down a couple inches from the top. Sure it's so there liability for causing a over flowing tank is limited.
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Old 08-09-2022, 02:18 PM   #3
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I'm not sure that this will answer your question but it may provide some clarity, On my RV, the black tank has 3 sensors. So in reality they're telling me when I'm approx 1/3 full, 2/3 full and 3/3 full. But keep in mind that between each sensor is 1/3 so when the sensor first reads full, in reality it just surpassed the 2/3 full mark and is trending towards full. When the full sensor first comes on, the tank is not truly full. Each sensor covers a range of approx 1/3 tank. At best they are an approximate.

Hope this helps some.
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Old 08-09-2022, 02:57 PM   #4
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If you boondock, this should be fairly easy.
You know how much is in your fresh water tanks. That water is going into one of two places, your grey water tank or your black water tank. Unless you have a huge fresh water tank it's going to be pretty unlikely that you're going to fill that black water tank. (Unless you have a rig like mine where the bathroom sink drains into the black water tank.)
We have a friend who prefers to use his fresh water tank rather than hooking up to water because the water going into the black and grey water tanks is limited by the amount of water in his fresh water tank.

You probably need to get some tank sensor cleaner. If something like toilet paper or poo gets on that sensor, it's going to read full. We've had a tt and now a small mh and the tanks sensors have never worked properly on either of them.
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Old 08-09-2022, 03:10 PM   #5
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My two Zincs.

Tank capacity is greatly affected by camper levelness and sensor location. Here is a photo taken of my freshwater tank sensors while parked in my driveway.

As you can see, if the tank (with the same quantity of water) is angled one way, the tank can no longer accept more water (full) but the "full" sensor is well above the water line.

In the other direction, the tank sensor is under water (full) but the inlet would be able to accept lots more water. Moving the camper to a more level attitude would result in water venting overboard.

Had this been the black tank (see photos), and in my case out of level left to right, the overflow could be a real mess.
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Old 08-09-2022, 03:35 PM   #6
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if you have a black tank flush and an inexpensive flowmeter (like $18.xx from Amazon), you can measure how much fluid your black tank takes, and how that corresponds with each tank indicator.

I found my Roo's black tank - specced as 30 gallons - had the 'full' indicator come on at 19.1 gallons.

BLACK (specced as 30 Gal):
1/3 - 5.7 Gal
2/3 - 12.3 Gal
Full - 19.1 Gal
Top - 25.4 Gal - need to double check this, Wife reported that she could see liquid, but it wasn't coming up to the toilet valve yet.

so, at INDICATED FULL (19.1 gal), I was only at 64% full of specced capacity (or 75% of observed capacity, though this number needs to be verified).

Interestingly enough, the freshwater tank measurement was much more accurate.

FRESHWATER (specced as 54 Gal):
1/3 - 13.8 Gal
2/3 - 30.0 Gal
Full - 42.3 Gal
Top - 54.3 Gal (when water was coming to/out the overflow vent built into the input area)


Initial Takeaways:
1. The FRESHWATER tank really is 54 gallons, as specs indicate (without the 6 additional gallons of water heater counted)
2. I likely had more room in my BLACK tank (underreported by 4.6 gallons).
3. This will likely be different for my GRAY tank*
3. This will likely be different for YOUR tanks**

*As the tanks are FLAT, the relative height difference for sensor position makes a big difference in how much the tank sensor reports that any given tank is holding at that particular level.

**depending on where the factory installed YOUR sensors.


Biggest benefit/knowledge/takeaway for me:

1. SO LONG AS I START WITH AN EMPTY FRESHWATER TANK, I can throw my digital flow meter on my freshwater tank when filling up, and add near as makes no difference 54 gallons to my system, going well past the 'FULL' mark on the control panel. So long as the tank starts empty, I can use my flowmeter as a rough fill gauge (freeing us up from one person being on the control panel and one person being at the fresh tank fill). Not that this really matters, I can also just fill 'till water starts to be heard/comes out the overflow vent and yield the same result (the fill gauge just gives me a target for how long I'll be at the fill station and be ready to shut off/disconnect).

2. I've got a LOT of flushes left in the system even after my black tank reads FULL. I won't panic about getting to the dump station, or hold off on using the head in the rig when we get close to the F mark.

To validate, I am going to repeat these tests, adding the gray tank to the cycle, and then print and add capacity stickers to the control panel as a reminder. I'll circle back and will report to this thread.

I hope you find this useful. Just my .02. Your mileage may vary.
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Old 08-10-2022, 06:56 AM   #7
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Tank sensors can be really frustrating. First time I winterized my rig noticed after I drained the fresh water tank the sensor still read 1/3 full, drove me nuts.



In spring when I filled the tank realized on my rig when the water sensor was at 1/3 I was indeed empty. I took note of how many gallons separated each light and now know how many gallons are needed between fill-ups.
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Old 08-10-2022, 05:09 PM   #8
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Why spend $18.00

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhumblefish View Post
if you have a black tank flush and an inexpensive flowmeter (like $18.xx from Amazon), you can measure how much fluid your black tank takes, and how that corresponds with each tank indicator.

I found my Roo's black tank - specced as 30 gallons - had the 'full' indicator come on at 19.1 gallons.

BLACK (specced as 30 Gal):
1/3 - 5.7 Gal
2/3 - 12.3 Gal
Full - 19.1 Gal
Top - 25.4 Gal - need to double check this, Wife reported that she could see liquid, but it wasn't coming up to the toilet valve yet.

so, at INDICATED FULL (19.1 gal), I was only at 64% full of specced capacity (or 75% of observed capacity, though this number needs to be verified).

Interestingly enough, the freshwater tank measurement was much more accurate.

FRESHWATER (specced as 54 Gal):
1/3 - 13.8 Gal
2/3 - 30.0 Gal
Full - 42.3 Gal
Top - 54.3 Gal (when water was coming to/out the overflow vent built into the input area)


Initial Takeaways:
1. The FRESHWATER tank really is 54 gallons, as specs indicate (without the 6 additional gallons of water heater counted)
2. I likely had more room in my BLACK tank (underreported by 4.6 gallons).
3. This will likely be different for my GRAY tank*
3. This will likely be different for YOUR tanks**

*As the tanks are FLAT, the relative height difference for sensor position makes a big difference in how much the tank sensor reports that any given tank is holding at that particular level.

**depending on where the factory installed YOUR sensors.


Biggest benefit/knowledge/takeaway for me:

1. SO LONG AS I START WITH AN EMPTY FRESHWATER TANK, I can throw my digital flow meter on my freshwater tank when filling up, and add near as makes no difference 54 gallons to my system, going well past the 'FULL' mark on the control panel. So long as the tank starts empty, I can use my flowmeter as a rough fill gauge (freeing us up from one person being on the control panel and one person being at the fresh tank fill). Not that this really matters, I can also just fill 'till water starts to be heard/comes out the overflow vent and yield the same result (the fill gauge just gives me a target for how long I'll be at the fill station and be ready to shut off/disconnect).

2. I've got a LOT of flushes left in the system even after my black tank reads FULL. I won't panic about getting to the dump station, or hold off on using the head in the rig when we get close to the F mark.

To validate, I am going to repeat these tests, adding the gray tank to the cycle, and then print and add capacity stickers to the control panel as a reminder. I'll circle back and will report to this thread.

I hope you find this useful. Just my .02. Your mileage may vary.
Why spend #18.00? Just pour 1-gallon buckets (and count them) in while someone else watches the indicator.
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Old 08-10-2022, 06:08 PM   #9
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All VERY helpful...especially the parts that indicate that the "full" sensor is mounted well below actual full. I also like the reassurance that my fresh tank does set an upper limit on what can go into either the grey or black tanks. I do, however, defeat this by carrying 28 additional gallons of fresh in jugs and adding during my stay. But, the the principle is sound.

Thanks again everyone for helping me wrap my head around this. I will continue to use the "BEST" sensor...a flashlight pointed down the dump pipe from the toilet.
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Old 08-10-2022, 07:00 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry-NC View Post
Why spend #18.00? Just pour 1-gallon buckets (and count them) in while someone else watches the indicator.
Cuz I (1) wanted to do the freshwater tank, too, without sucking water out of buckets; and (2) now I have a digital flow meter that I can hook up to the hose when I'm filling (and don't have to stand at the fill point like a doofus waiting around doing nothing)?

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Old 08-28-2022, 11:28 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmoore13 View Post
I know this subject has been beaten to death, but I couldn't find the answer I'm seeking, so here I am. I'm trying to understand more than fix in this case. I'm not sure the problem can be fixed.

We boondock exclusively, and we often stretch our black tank to at least 7 full days. If available, I'll use a nearby vault toilet for the truly nasty stuff, and that helps extend the stay.

My challenge:
I clean the hell out of my black tank when dumping...at home with a macerator pump. Full on pressure from a garden hose down the toilet while dumping...for about 5 minutes, the about 3 to 5 minutes using the black tank flush. When I'm done, the tank is "sparkling" clean...

When I start, the tank reads empty, and for the first day or two, the sensors read that it's filling progressively. No problem. By about the 4th day, it's reading about 2/3 full, then, suddenly, it reads full.

I'm fortunate that my toilet has a straight drop into the black tank, so I can shut off the pump, open the flush valve, and use a flashlight to get an accurate reading of where things actually stand. This works well, and I'm happly to continue monitoring this way.

The catch with the sensors is, however, that the empty tank shows about (guessing) 8" from the bottom of the flange into the tank to the bottom of the empty tank. At the end of the last trip, I still had about 1 1/2" to 2" of headroom above effluent to the bottom of the toilet flange into the tank. Yet the tank sensors were reading full for at least 3 days.

Note that, since we are dry camping, we don't flush much water into the tank, but MOST of what goes into the tank is urine and/or flush water. My wife doesn't use the vaults, but I ALWAYS do for pooping. So the amount of solids in the tank are relatively limited.

Assuming my sensors are clean and functioning as they should, is there any reason why this would be happening? Is it possible that the uppermost sensor is contaminated but doesn't trigger a full reading until the others are submerged?

Given that I can monitor effectively with a flashlight, I don't plan to fix this, but it sure would be nice to understand why this sensor system only kinda sorta works.
The response I got is TP on sensor but I don't flush my TP it goes in a trash bag. What's up with that?
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Old 08-28-2022, 12:39 PM   #12
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Crawl under?

You could crawl under and see where the sensors are actually located on the side of the tank, to figure out what they are telling you? The assembler at the factory might have been measuring by eyeball that day.

You should take note of which side the sensors are on, too. Many RVs have long, skinny tanks located transverse (crossways) to the vehicle. Setting the RV with one side just a little bit high makes a huge difference in the measurement. Tilt also is a factor in the view from the toilet unless the toilet outlet is located EXACTLY in the center of the tank in both directions and a factor in whether an air bubble forms (that cannot be displaced) above the bottom of the toilet inlet.

Unless the RV is stationary for all the trials, you can't draw conclusions.
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Old 08-29-2022, 11:22 AM   #13
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UPDATE:

I appreciate the suggestion to crawl under and observe the location of the sensors on the tank. Since my rig is diapered in coroplast, that's more effort than it's worth.

Curious observation. The rig was idle for two weekends after dumping and thorough cleaning of the black tank. But thorough may be an overstatement.

I should have (but didn't) observe the tank sensors after cleaning. So that control measure didn't happen. But we did go out again last weekend, and after one day the tank sensors were reading full. A flashlight check down the dump valve in the toilet confirmed the obvious. There was barely anything in the tank, so the sensors were wrong.

My latest hunch. The black tank flush is not thoroughly cleaning the sensors, despite the fact that I run it for three or four minutes...until the water comes out crystal clear. My hunch is that the sensors are out of the line of fire of the black tank flush. And my second hunch is that the two-week hiatus allowed any film on the sensors, however small, to dry on and cloud the sensor's ability to measure accurately.

With all that said, since I can "read" the tank with a flashlight pointed down the toilet (with the water pump off), I'm going to ignore the black tank sensor and use the eyeball method. It's 100% reliable.
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Old 08-29-2022, 11:48 AM   #14
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I highly recommend changing your sensors from the OEM button style to the Teflon shielded stainless steel wire type.

I am on my phone but tonight I will upload some links to what used to be called the Horst Miracle Probe.

They are now sold by a different company.
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Old 08-29-2022, 11:56 AM   #15
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Before you do any sensor switching (which sounds a lot like a good idea), I'd measure how much ACTUAL tankage you see, calibrating your sensor with a flowmeter, a watersource and hose, and the DW.

In an effort to learn where MY 2022 235S tanks and fill levels were at, I used a digital flowmeter ($18.xx from Amazon), filled my freshwater and black tanks, and measured when the corresponding idiot lights came up SOLID on the general control panel. I kept the water heater CLOSED/BYPASSED. Note: I didn't do my gray tank, simply because (1) it involved a hose running in through the trailer and (2) I ran out of time ... but I will followup up with that at a later date.

FRESHWATER (specced as 54 Gal):
1/3 - 13.8 Gal <- Idiot light solid
2/3 - 30.0 Gal <- Idiot light solid
Full - 42.3 Gal <- Idiot light solid
Top - 54.3 Gal (when water was coming to the overflow vent built into the input area)

BLACK (specced as 30 Gal):
1/3 - 5.7 Gal <- Idiot light solid
2/3 - 12.3 Gal <- Idiot light solid
Full - 19.1 Gal <- Idiot light solid
Top - 25.4 Gal (when wastewater was visible coming up the waste pipe but well below the valving mechanism)


Initial Takeaways:
1. The FRESHWATER tank really is 54 gallons, as specs indicate (without the 6 gallons of water heater counted, as many on this board had advised)
2. I likely had MORE room in my BLACK tank (underreported by 4.6 gallons). This could be a safety measure (I'd rather have my black tank full light come on SOONER/BEFORE than completely full, rather than LATER/AFTER)
3. This will likely be different for my GRAY tank*
3. This will likely be different for (ALL) YOUR tanks**

*As the tanks are FLAT, the relative height difference for sensor position makes a big difference in how much the tank sensor reports that any given tank is holding at that particular level.

**depending on where the factory installed YOUR sensors, and it seems like at least one isn't in an ideal spot.


Biggest benefit/knowledge/takeaway for me:

1. SO LONG AS I START WITH AN EMPTY FRESHWATER TANK, I can throw my digital flow meter on my freshwater tank when filling up, and add near as makes no difference 54 gallons to my system, going well past the 'FULL' mark on the control panel. So long as the tank starts empty, I can use my flowmeter as a rough fill gauge (freeing us up from one person being on the control panel and one person being at the fresh tank fill). Not that this really matters, I can also just fill 'till water starts to be heard/comes out the overflow vent and yield the same result (the fill gauge just gives me a target for how long I'll be at the fill station and be ready to shut off/disconnect).

2. I've got a LOT of flushes left in the system even after my black tank reads FULL. I won't panic about getting to the dump station, or hold off on using the head in the rig when we get close to the F mark.

To validate, I am going to repeat these tests, adding the gray tank to the cycle, and then print and add capacity stickers to the control panel as a reminder. I'll circle back and will report to this thread.

You might watch your fill levels against your stated black tank size, ID where they align with the idiot lights, and then VISUALLY VALIDATE when your tanks are TRULY full (of crystal clear water, that is) using a flashlight and a straight view down the Toilet hole.

3. posting a FULL light BEFORE THE TANK IS ACTUALLY COMPLETELY FULL isn't a bad idea. It gives you time (and some emergency room) to deal with (1) slope on sight causing tanks to report differently and (2) time to get that waste taken care of.

I hope you find this useful. Just my .02. Your mileage may vary.
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Old 08-30-2022, 12:41 PM   #16
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The water tracking method makes sense if one can't directly view the tank condition. Since I can just turn off the pump (or shut off city water...which we never use because we boondock), step on the flush pedal, and peer down into the tank with a flashlight, this water-measurement method would be more effort than it's worth for me.

One note on liquids, however. My flush adds very little water. Most of the liquid in my tank is urine. And that's not measured going in. We run a very "dry" black tank...I'll often turn off the pump before flushing urine to stretch the tank's capacity. I pay for this method when dumping, but my "hose down the toilet" method of cleaning moves any solids out of the tank. Again, using a flashlight, I can confirm that the bottom of the tank is sparkling clean.

Anyway, I'm impressed by the ways others manage this challenge. I'm aware that many fivers have their black tank down in the "basement," but the master bath is up over the hitch, so the dump pipe does not allow viewing the condition of the black tank. The tactics you describe sound very useful under those circumstances.
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Old 08-31-2022, 01:28 PM   #17
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OK, sorry it took so long before I got back to this thread.

Here is some useful (I found) tank indicator information I have accumulated over the years.

Video on why tank indicators are unreliable and why it is NEVER "toilet paper on the sensor".



Typical install:



Horst Dynamics sold their patent to Valterra and you can buy them at Amazon.
https://smile.amazon.com/Full-Spectr...NsaWNrPXRydWU=

I found out you should pay the extra and put black tank style probes in your gray tank instead of the gray tank ones because if you have a spouse or guest with long hair, it will foul the gray tank (coil type) probe.

I also attached the troubleshooting manual and the wiring diagram for the system. NOTE! Your "display" has nothing to do with the actual system. The system has been in use since the dawn of time and even if you have "bars", LEDs, or flat screen analog dial, it's still only indicating 4 level states (Empty, 1/3, 2/3, and FULL) because there are only 3 indicating sensors and a ground sensor.
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