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Old 12-25-2020, 12:04 PM   #21
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The lack of common sense is what makes me crazy. Like gutters that rise from the center to the end. Although they do make a nice lake on my roof! A light switch where you walk in would be pretty techno as well.
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Old 12-25-2020, 12:16 PM   #22
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The RV industry does not use quality-enhancing processes - and isn't about to start. Publishing standards and training to standards isn't something either side is interested in.

If the RV industry was interested in changing, the obvious low hanging fruit is documenting wiring and plumbing, making up plug-in wiring harnesses and installation kits and rigorously using drilling and cutting templates. Instead, the industry follows the stick-built house methods of custom building every installation - which requires trained and knowledgeable workforce.

Fred W

I certainly agree that the RV manufacturers do not have a quality process.

My Vibe came with all of the GFCI outlets not working I traced it back to the main bathroom outlet that was wired backwards. Did it save time to wire it backwards? Might have taken longer because the assembler may have debated which wire went where. Maybe not? Maybe they just didn’t care? You would think that something safety related like a GFCI would get tested either at the factory or the dealer, but not in this case.

As Sunseeker16 says the openings for wiring were 3x the required size and looked like they were punched out. That takes time, involves more scrap that has to be dealt with, that costs money. They don’t appear to want to change and I believe they are short sighted.

Custom building certainly does require a trained and knowledgeable workforce and it seems they are lacking that as well.
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Old 12-25-2020, 12:49 PM   #23
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A couple points with every thread on quality

1. Would you pay for made in USA as opposed to China for part? 50% increase in cost for parts
2. Would you pay a living wage for better Quality? 25% increase
3. Would you be willing to buy local from a local dealer to look after the issues you might have 20% increase.
4. Would you pay for ISO certification for manufacturers priceless!!

So your $100 k Class C would cost $150 k. Would you pay more?
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Old 12-25-2020, 12:53 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by U.S.ArmyVeteran
Apparently most of the installation/construction people are paid by the "piece".

I CORRECTLY install 12 valves per hour I get more money.

I INCORRECTLYinstall 6 valves per hour I get less money.
AND AM TOLD TO DO IT RIGHT OR GET ON DOWN THE HIGHWAY.
Job security and raises should be on performance.
What's my incentive to do it correctly or by any known convention? My boss wants quantity not quality. And this shows up in out units.
And this is the BS part.
Now it is up to luck if that component is critical to the operation of our RV. Or is just an inconvenience I have to fix with some glue!

RV There yet:-)



Its a shame but what you said is true. Trust me when I say, If just one manufacture would raise it standards it could corner the market.


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Old 12-25-2020, 01:36 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by B and B View Post
A couple points with every thread on quality

1. Would you pay for made in USA as opposed to China for part? 50% increase in cost for parts
2. Would you pay a living wage for better Quality? 25% increase
3. Would you be willing to buy local from a local dealer to look after the issues you might have 20% increase.
4. Would you pay for ISO certification for manufacturers priceless!!

So your $100 k Class C would cost $150 k. Would you pay more?
First RVs are Made in the USA. Perhaps the furnaces, stoves, refrigerators, inverters, and other subcomponents are not but the Frames (FL, Ford & Spartan), the motors (Cummins, Ford, etc.), Lippert leveling systems heck who knows probably Volvo engines might be as well now. IDK that most Foreign cars (toyota, Kia, Hyundai etc.) have been being built in the US for many years now and though they have foreign parts, the assembly work is USA. The wiring, actual building/assembly of the RVs including walls, floors, plumbing, which IMHO seem to be the crutch of the issues, are all USA. Assembly is the problem and yes I agree that they are either working for piece part or pressure from management to push them out as quickly as possible or they'll be replaced. QA is an after thought with the RV industries and though there's improvements, we're still got a long way to go. Are these houses on wheels, yes but the problems found that I read about has nothing to do with that, it's more workmanship, wiring wrong, poor slide assembly, plumbing not completed right or at all, missing hardware, etc. etc. IMHO I could live with problems if you go back to the dealer where you bought them and they fix them right the first time. But again that's not true either, though my recent experience with Winnebago on my DP has me becoming a believer once again. Anytime I bought it back for warranty work, it was fixed right the first time and with a quick turnaround. Is it luck with this particular dealer, I don't know but I'm happier even with it in a few times over the last year. I'm sure they are many with few issues and that's good too. Folks forget that the forum is a place most come to talk about their issues looking for advice, experience and insight, also many looking for modification advice through experience also. I've heard plenty of times people have chimed in about how few there issues had and that's good to hear as well but in the end Quality starts at the top of the management chain. They need to be believers and slow things down to make the goal continuous improvements, track them, hold accountability, set goals and reward good behavior . Of course the crush for profits is on due to covid for the RV industry, as they know this will be short lived. Sorry to sound off but I don't buy cost is the issue, I have no clue what workers in the RV industry make but service folks like at MacDonald's, Burger King, etc. make very little and work hard but I bet you would not accept your order being wrong or food tasting like crap and that's for a $5-10 meal... why would you accept that for what RVs cost ? Food for thought!
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Old 12-25-2020, 01:38 PM   #26
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Why would you have to make changes to the chassis? These are standard factory chassis cabs. If the chassis is underrated for the builder, that's a safety issue and the DOT (feds) could get involved in that.

Well if you read the forums long enough you will see where it looks like most buyers are ok with the upgrades. I don't get it.


Can I afford to do this stupid move, Hell Yea. Will I do it, Hell No! So I will stick to my TT that I don't have to rebuild the chassis and spend more money on traveling.
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Old 12-25-2020, 02:06 PM   #27
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[QUOTE=B and B;2470225]A couple points with every thread on quality

1. Would you pay for made in USA as opposed to China for part? 50% increase in cost for parts


Currently most items are not made in the USA and they are charging as if they were.



2. Would you pay a living wage for better Quality? 25% increase


No that is for the manufacture to do with the already inflated prices. I mean come on now, pressed paper for counter tops are you f-ing kidding me. Paneling that is 1/16 of an inch thick with cheap paper on it. Really?
Do I need to go on.



3. Would you be willing to buy local from a local dealer to look after the issues you might have 20% increase.


This is a yes if they have the stock and if they actually care and do quality work. By the same token if their work is substandard, ie: multiple trips, extended turnaround times, many excuses and if they ever say once, "Thats how they make them now a days"

HECK NO! SPELLED WITH TWO LL'S


4. Would you pay for ISO certification for manufacturers priceless!!


ISO certification certifies that a management system, manufacturing process, service, or documentation procedure has all the requirements for standardization and quality assurance. ... ISO standards are in place to ensure consistency. Each certification has separate standards and criteria and is classified numerically.



This cert avg cost is about 10 to 15,000.00 if I read it correctly. So no I would not be willing to accept a cost increase based on this ISO standard. If you read about it it is a guideline set by the company itself and then summited from approval.

Here are the four essential steps to becoming an ISO-certified business.
  1. Develop your management system. Identify your core or business processes. ...
  2. Implement your system. Ensure procedures are being performed as they are described in your documentation. ...
  3. Verify that your system is effective. ...
  4. Register your system.




So your $100 k Class C would cost $150 k. Would you pay more?
I cant agree to a blanket cost increase but I would be willing to pay more for better everything. Basically when spending 100,000.00 whats another 50 if the quality is there?

The problem now is that the same crap is in every model and brand. The current standard in the industry is just enough to get by.
Vinyl that turns pink, couches and seats that peel and crack, slide outs that leak, slide outs that will not extend or retract, awning motors that stop working on the first trip, tires known as CHINA BOMBS ARE STILL BEING USED THIS VERY DAY. Water and electric lines that go through wall that looks like they made the hole with a chainsaw.



With this being the policy for so long now, its probably not going to change.

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Old 12-26-2020, 10:23 PM   #28
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Its a shame but what you said is true. Trust me when I say, If just one manufacture would raise it standards it could corner the market.
Not likely to corner the market. Go broke - perhaps.

The capital and human cost in changing to a quality culture is tremendous, and usually vastly underestimated by those advocating change. Having been involved in several failed transitions, as well as several successful ones, the following are the common sticking points:
  • new leadership is usually required. Current leadership got to where they are by doing things the way they are doing them. For the most part, current leadership is competent and confident and successful with current processes. Changing processes and culture is an unknown. Leadership usually has no confidence that the changed processes will actually be successful.
  • a significant minority of the workforce will actively work to sabotage the change. I have seen this in software engineering and in aircraft engine repair, both of which had actual sabotage of product by disgruntled workers. Changing everything is that frightening to a significant part of the population.
  • not only your company, but supply chain must buy into the new processes/culture. We already complain about the quality of various components in our RVs. It does little good to have the best RV assembly line in the world unless the Lipperts, Dexters, Dometics, Furrion, etc agree to up the quality of their components.
  • 80% of the population truly believes in doing the same thing over and over again, but somehow the next time the result will be different.
Usually, successful transitions occur away from the spotlight. A company sets up a subsidiary or "skunk works" where normal rules don't apply, and change-minded leadership installed that is left alone. It's kept very quiet until well after success has been achieved with the new processes and culture. The transformation of the company is eventually achieved by shifting new business to the skunk works, and letting the old business wither on the vine.

just my experiences
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Old 12-26-2020, 11:24 PM   #29
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Only 2 things will get the attention of the RV Industry.
1. Government intervention. Which I don't condone except for safety issues.

2. Successful Competition.

In 1970 I sat in a Datsun at the New York Car Show. I pinched the door at the open window and it made the sound of a beer can being squeezed. As I sat there the rear of the car went into the air. My 2 buddies picked it up by the rear bumper. Little did we know that 50 years later. Nissan would be number 5 in US Sales. The japanese car industry did the US Industry a huge favor.

I thank them. I personally have never owned a ricer. But that's my thing.

Back to the car show. We moved on to see the Ford Pantera.

RV industry needs competition. Otherwise status quo.
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Old 12-26-2020, 11:38 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by U.S.ArmyVeteran View Post
Only 2 things will get the attention of the RV Industry.
1. Government intervention. Which I don't condone except for safety issues.

2. Successful Competition.

In 1970 I sat in a Datsun at the New York Car Show. I pinched the door at the open window and it made the sound of a beer can being squeezed. As I sat there the rear of the car went into the air. My 2 buddies picked it up by the rear bumper. Little did we know that 50 years later. Nissan would be number 5 in US Sales. The japanese car industry did the US Industry a huge favor.

I thank them. I personally have never owned a ricer. But that's my thing.

Back to the car show. We moved on to see the Ford Pantera.

RV industry needs competition. Otherwise status quo.
The challenge with "competition as a solution" in this market is that the disruptive competitor has two options:

* Make a better product at a comparable price, so that consumers are getting better quality for the same or lower price.

* Make a demonstrably, obviously, significantly better product at a very slightly higher price.

The problem with the first solution is that the competitor will likely incur additional cost, but will only make up any shortfall on volume (if at all).

The problem with the second solution is that there will still be a big market for the status quo, with people who will always buy cheaper because it's cheaper.
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Old 12-27-2020, 12:12 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by U.S.ArmyVeteran View Post
Only 2 things will get the attention of the RV Industry.

2. Successful Competition.

In 1970 I sat in a Datsun at the New York Car Show. I pinched the door at the open window and it made the sound of a beer can being squeezed. As I sat there the rear of the car went into the air. My 2 buddies picked it up by the rear bumper. Little did we know that 50 years later. Nissan would be number 5 in US Sales. The japanese car industry did the US Industry a huge favor.

I thank them.

RV industry needs competition. Otherwise status quo.
Exactly how do you envision this happening?

Forget RV competition from Asia since virtually hardly anyone RV's there. Plus there wouldn't be enough profit to manufacture them and then ship them to North America since shipping costs would be higher dur to the sizes of RVs.
Maybe if an Asian company purchased a US RV manufacturer but is also unlikely. Look at what happened to Roadtrek when Hymer bought them out. Hymer is a German RV manufacturer and ended up closing down Roadtrek and laying off the employees and sold to Thor Industries. Now a French RV manufacturer has taken over the Roadtrek brand and attempting to make a go of it. But that is strictly limited Class B motorhomes and they are very costly.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see this kind of competition happen. But RVing is a truly North American pastime and barely seen in the rest of the world. Sure some in Australia, New Zealand and Europe but nowhere near the numbers in North America. And only small class c motorhomes and small sparse TTs.
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