Water leaking at shower hose to fixture and into basement

[nomad297]

Originally Posted by Dwilcox

Was on a service call in a hospital a few years ago. They used the pan method with vinyl tubing with a silicone seal ran through the ceiling to a sink in a utility closet.
Finaly one leak got so bad the drain tube would not take it and pan overflowed. Offered to fix all at the same time but the engineers only wanted the ones on the same system fixed so one was left that I fixed 3 months later.
Pay me now or pay me later.

The “developers” of the rigs you found used a similar, but more effective drainage method than what I see a lot. Some people will discover a small leak on a drain or a pin hole leak on a water line and, instead of fixing it properly, will tie a piece of string around the pipe at the leak, then route the string downwards to a sink or a bucket (usually a funnel is involved somewhere to complete the appearance of a Rube Goldberg device) so the drip will travel down the string via gravity to its destination. I was in a basement about a year ago that had so many pin hole leaks with this “repair” and buckets all over the place that, at first glance, I thought I was walking into a haunted house with fake spider webs everywhere. The customer wanted me to fix only the leaks that had become too large for the “string trick” to handle. I haven’t been back there since — who know what it looks like now?

Bruce

[Larry-NC]

Originally Posted by nomad297

The “developers” of the rigs you found used a similar, but more effective drainage method than what I see a lot. Some people will discover a small leak on a drain or a pin hole leak on a water line and, instead of fixing it properly, will tie a piece of string around the pipe at the leak, then route the string downwards to a sink or a bucket (usually a funnel is involved somewhere to complete the appearance of a Rube Goldberg device) so the drip will travel down the string via gravity to its destination. I was in a basement about a year ago that had so many pin hole leaks with this “repair” and buckets all over the place that, at first glance, I thought I was walking into a haunted house with fake spider webs everywhere. The customer wanted me to fix only the leaks that had become too large for the “string trick” to handle. I haven’t been back there since — who know what it looks like now?

Bruce

How could you have so many leaks? A really bad job of sweating copper pipe? (When I switched to lead-free solder, I had to learn how to do it all over again, but a bad joint was immediately evident.

Or was it PB tubing with the time-bomb plastic elbows and tees? They might weep for a bit, but they soon opened enough to require immediate repair.

Iron pipe drain lines? You wouldn't use the pan-and-towel or string tricks on those.

I just can't envision what sort of plumbing would leak so badly.

[nomad297]

Originally Posted by Larry-NC

How could you have so many leaks?

Pin holes in copper water pipe — most commonly with Type “M” copper at the lowest point of a plumbing system, and almost always on horizontal sections. It is very rare to find them above the basement or crawl space and even more rare to find them on a vertical section of pipe, but I have found them on vertical sections several levels up, so it does happen. They just show up after several years and there’s nothing you can do to prevent them.

Millions of dollars and years of research have been spent to find the cause of pin holes in copper water pipe, but nobody has ever been able to work out why they occur. Google the WSSC study to see what I am talking about.

I repair dozens of these things every week. I replace any copper I cut out with Type “L” copper.

Bruce

[Larry-NC]

Originally Posted by nomad297

Pin holes in copper water pipe — most commonly with Type “M” copper at the lowest point of a plumbing system, and almost always on horizontal sections. It is very rare to find them above the basement or crawl space and even more rare to find them on a vertical section of pipe, but I have found them on vertical sections several levels up, so it does happen. They just show up after several years and there’s nothing you can do to prevent them.

Millions of dollars and years of research have been spent to find the cause of pin holes in copper water pipe, but nobody has ever been able to work out why they occur. Google the WSSC study to see what I am talking about.

I repair dozens of these things every week. I replace any copper I cut out with Type “L” copper.

Bruce

Today I learned about corrosion in copper. I read the long White Paper and three or four of the other reports. I've never seen anything like this and I've lived in two houses, both built in1965 and plumbed with copper--I would guess Type L.

I do have experience with failure in cast iron 4" sanitary risers and the elbows used at toilets, and in galvanized 2" pipe horizontal runs, both at the lowest level. I have never been able to visualize why the riser failed, since water contact is only periodic. The horizontal part was easier. Failure always occurred at the joint, where the tapered thread enters the joint and is thinnest. Water is always trapped in the joint because of the "step" up into the pipe.

[Dwilcox]

Originally Posted by Larry-NC

Today I learned about corrosion in copper. I read the long White Paper and three or four of the other reports. I've never seen anything like this and I've lived in two houses, both built in1965 and plumbed with copper--I would guess Type L.

I do have experience with failure in cast iron 4" sanitary risers and the elbows used at toilets, and in galvanized 2" pipe horizontal runs, both at the lowest level. I have never been able to visualize why the riser failed, since water contact is only periodic. The horizontal part was easier. Failure always occurred at the joint, where the tapered thread enters the joint and is thinnest. Water is always trapped in the joint because of the "step" up into the pipe.

Most pin holes I have delt with through the years have been on the hot side, not to far down a change of direction in the direction of flow. Usually on the return line of a circ. To high of velocity in the tube. The CDA (Copper Development Association)calls it erosion corrosion. That's why the UPC limits the velocity in copper tube systems to 8 feet per second in cold and 5 on the hot side.
Just my experience.

[Larry-NC]

Originally Posted by Dwilcox

Most pin holes I have delt with through the years have been on the hot side, not to far down a change of direction in the direction of flow. Usually on the return line of a circ. To high of velocity in the tube. The CDA (Copper Development Association)calls it erosion corrosion. That's why the UPC limits the velocity in copper tube systems to 8 feet per second in cold and 5 on the hot side.
Just my experience.

I'm sure most folks don't realize there is so much science to your field. The electrical analogue is pushing 30 amps through AWG 14 wire. Yes, you can probably get away with it in open air, but there will be a lot of voltage drop.

The attached image which teaches Ohm's Law relates to electricity but has a direct analog in fluidics. The situation we were originally discussing, pressure on both sides of an orifice with zero flow corresponds to the voltage across a resistance with zero current flow.

[nomad297]

Originally Posted by Larry-NC

I'm sure most folks don't realize there is so much science to your field.

No, they don’t. We’re just plumbers — just a group of uneducated tradesman who will take advantage of every customer we deal with — especially women and the elderly — and always, always charge too much.

I have to go now — my limo driver is waiting to take me to my next call.

Bruce

[nomad297]

Originally Posted by Larry-NC

I do have experience with failure in cast iron 4" sanitary risers and the elbows used at toilets, and in galvanized 2" pipe horizontal runs, both at the lowest level. I have never been able to visualize why the riser failed, since water contact is only periodic. The horizontal part was easier. Failure always occurred at the joint, where the tapered thread enters the joint and is thinnest. Water is always trapped in the joint because of the "step" up into the pipe.

I could explain all of this to you. Maybe one day in a PM.

One thing you didn’t mention, though, is DWV copper drain lines — especially the 2” and 1-1/2” horizontal portions of kitchen drains — usually in the wall behind the kitchen cabinets where they go unnoticed. In my experience, these have caused more serious damage to homes than any of the other types of drains you mentioned. Over time, the bottom of these drains erode and corrode and people usually don’t realize there is a problem until the water damage is so bad that mold abatement companies need to be called in and the customer needs to make a call to their insurance company. I have seen dozens of homes ripped apart due to this.

Bruce

[Skip12]

Originally Posted by Larry-NC

I have learned the hard way (twice, slow learner) that if you tighten those plastic shower hose ends too tight, you crack the plastic. After it's tight, if you continue twisting (even bare hands), the fitting bottoms out and the threaded portion pulls away from it. At first this crack will be too small to see. As it travels around, the gap opens and it's time to get another one.

This is also what I would be most concerned about. I would try to reuse the original hose that came with the camper to see if that addresses the leak. Of you don't have the original hose, swap ends to see if the leak moves from the wall fixture to the nozzle.

[kramocker]

Wow! I guess that’s one way to do it. Love the Rube Goldberg reference!

Cheers,

SK