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Old 02-04-2021, 02:58 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by hobienick View Post
Tom, before you get upset with the responses, remember what you are asking the forum to do. Give you an answer to a problem with many variables that were not shared. These thread killers are trying to gather enough information to give you a good answer.

From this additional information you shared I still wonder why you need to run the fridge in the winter and once your batteries are topped off you should not need to draw much current at all from your converter. So, the only significant load is your electric heater which can easily run on 15A.

When you say marginal, what do you mean? Is the breaker tripping? Is the household wiring getting hot? Are you pulling almost 15 A and not feeling comfortable?

There were several legitimate questions being asked to help you solve your problem free of charge.
The question I asked is strait forward. NONE of the variables you mention above needs to be addressed to answer the question.
I will be installing 30 amp service as soon as supplies arrive. I Obiviously have done the math on amps needed to power my Super C and 20 amps is marginal.

Thanks for everyones Direct awnser to the question in the original post. What I choose to run or why is not the issue.
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Old 02-04-2021, 04:48 PM   #22
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The question I asked is strait forward. NONE of the variables you mention above needs to be addressed to answer the question.

I will be installing 30 amp service as soon as supplies arrive. I Obiviously have done the math on amps needed to power my Super C and 20 amps is marginal.



Thanks for everyones Direct awnser to the question in the original post. What I choose to run or why is not the issue.
Just make one. Buy the 50a connector for $20 on amazon, and run two 15a cables in to it (cut up extension cords if you must) and plug in to two 15a outlets verified to be on opposite legs of your home panel box.
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Old 02-06-2021, 11:22 AM   #23
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It's important to consider that you also have to keep your 2 15 amp fused outlets on the same power leg otherwise you're effectively creating a 220 volt power differential. If I were in this situation I would try to live within the 15 amp limit as others have suggested.
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Old 02-06-2021, 11:38 AM   #24
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Nothing wrong with that!

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It's important to consider that you also have to keep your 2 15 amp fused outlets on the same power leg otherwise you're effectively creating a 220 volt power differential. If I were in this situation I would try to live within the 15 amp limit as others have suggested.
There's nothing wrong with that.

In the usual situation, using a properly-wired campground 50 amp outlet, there is indeed a 240 VAC differential between the L1 and L2 terminals.

In fact, there must be. It's dangerous otherwise.

The reason is that the "50 amp" cord uses a shared neutral. There are only three conductors (besides ground) in the cord: L1, L2, and the shared neutral.

Suppose you have a lot of appliances on: Both A/Cs, microwave, water heater, etc. and are drawing 40 amps through each of L1 and L2. If L1 and L2 were on the same phase (leg), you would have 80 amps (!!) on the shared neutral return.

But because L1 and L2 are opposite phases (legs), they cancel each other out and there is no current in the neutral return. With opposite phases (legs), the maximum current that can flow in the neutral occurs when one leg has 0 current--no cancelling of the other leg's current.

(In the situation under discussion here, it makes no difference because L1 and L2 are limited to 15 amps each. If they were on the same phase (leg), the additive current would only be 30 amps, well within the 50 amp cord rating. If they were on opposite phases (legs), the current could never be more than 15 amps.)
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Old 02-06-2021, 01:22 PM   #25
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There's nothing wrong with that.

In the usual situation, using a properly-wired campground 50 amp outlet, there is indeed a 240 VAC differential between the L1 and L2 terminals.

In fact, there must be. It's dangerous otherwise.

The reason is that the "50 amp" cord uses a shared neutral. There are only three conductors (besides ground) in the cord: L1, L2, and the shared neutral.

Suppose you have a lot of appliances on: Both A/Cs, microwave, water heater, etc. and are drawing 40 amps through each of L1 and L2. If L1 and L2 were on the same phase (leg), you would have 80 amps (!!) on the shared neutral return.

But because L1 and L2 are opposite phases (legs), they cancel each other out and there is no current in the neutral return. With opposite phases (legs), the maximum current that can flow in the neutral occurs when one leg has 0 current--no cancelling of the other leg's current.

(In the situation under discussion here, it makes no difference because L1 and L2 are limited to 15 amps each. If they were on the same phase (leg), the additive current would only be 30 amps, well within the 50 amp cord rating. If they were on opposite phases (legs), the current could never be more than 15 amps.)
Thanks so much for your excellent response. That does make sense.
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Old 02-06-2021, 02:10 PM   #26
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we've traveled MANY miles(over 110,000) all across this great country, including Alaska, and many provinces across the whole of Canada, and have seen many instances where having access to TWO different 120v outlets is a very nice option.
Now, whether the original post is about someone who would like it while their RV is parked at home, or whether it's us on a 'venture' during a camping experience, either is logical if it's what the owner feels is needed.

So, yes, you can easily access two different household outlets with the correct adapter, or set of adapters, for the situation. Likely, in this situation, the outlets are not going to be close enough for a single adapter to reach both, so you'll still need to use an extension cord, as well. Regardless, it's easily doable....

BUT, yes, these outlets HAVE to be on different circuits, but do NOT have to be on different phases(which you would probably not be able to readily know anyway)... yes, it's likely that if you know one is a 20amp outlet and the other is a 15amp outlet, they are certainly on different circuits. Why is being on different circuits important? Well, it's because if the two outlets are on the SAME circuit, the breaker is still going to trip if you use more than 15amps, with a 15amp breaker, or 20amps, with a 20amp breaker.
The adapter combines the two different circuits and provides you the ability to access up to either 30amps or 35amps, or 40amps, in these situations. Most campground outlets are 20amp, but most home outlets are 15amps.

Now, the OTHER question, or concern, is about GFCI outlets: these adapters do not have the capacity to provide a 'combined' power if one or both of the outlets you are accessing are GFCI outlets, or have GFCI breakers - either one will defeat the adapter and you will have no power. It's aggravating that they are built this way, but it's simply the nature of the fact that generally any 50amp or 30amp RV outlets do NOT use or have any GFCI protection, since they don't need any, and code does not require any.
Since many household outlets, especially those outside, will either be a GFCI outlet, or be on a GFCI breaker circuit, you may run into issues trying to combine either circuit which an adapter.
Also, since most campground outlets are now GFCI protected, and even though they are 20amp sized, you can't use one of these adapters with those, either.

These adapters are great, WHEN you have no GFCI outlets or breakers in play, but if so, you'll still have no ability to combine those power options.

Believe me, we've tried, in many situations, but it doesn't work. We have a 50amp to 30a/15a adapter, and a 50amp to 30a/30a adapter, and have even used our additional adapter 'pucks' to try to access two outlets, but, inevitably, one is GFCI - so, no joy.

The times we HAVE had success, we access two 30amp RV outlets to our 50amp shore cord, or a 30amp RV outlet AND a 15amp 'household' outlet from a nearby bath house or building, etc. In those situations it's generally because it's either the HOT summer, for air conditioning, or the COLD winter, for additional electric heat. In many situations, though, even a simple 30amp RV outlet is already plenty for even the largest of motorhomes, even with the microwave, elec water heater, tv and receiver, and even a floor elec heater going at the same time, like we enjoy right now.
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Old 02-08-2021, 08:18 PM   #27
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I've done similar things and it works as long as the receptacles are not protected by GFCIs. The GFCIs will trip as soon as both plugs are plugged in. Doing this ties the neutrals from the two circuits together and is probably against electrical codes.

If the two circuits are of different length, more current will flow in one neutral than the other. Since twice the rated current for one breaker is available, the current in the lower resistance connection could be significantly above the wire's rating. (If there was only one neutral, it would carry twice the rated current.)

If the two receptacles are on opposite legs, the current in the neutral will be LESS and things are better.

If you have any 240 volt appliances, unplugging one of the plugs could energize it's hot prong from the other leg creating a shock hazard.

If you are having a 30-amp 120 volt receptacle installed, spend the additional money and have a 50-amp 120/240volt receptacle installed.
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Old 02-08-2021, 08:35 PM   #28
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I've done similar things and it works as long as the receptacles are not protected by GFCIs. The GFCIs will trip as soon as both plugs are plugged in. Doing this ties the neutrals from the two circuits together and is probably against electrical codes.

If the two circuits are of different length, more current will flow in one neutral than the other. Since twice the rated current for one breaker is available, the current in the lower resistance connection could be significantly above the wire's rating. (If there was only one neutral, it would carry twice the rated current.)

If the two receptacles are on opposite legs, the current in the neutral will be LESS and things are better.

If you have any 240 volt appliances, unplugging one of the plugs could energize it's hot prong from the other leg creating a shock hazard.

If you are having a 30-amp 120 volt receptacle installed, spend the additional money and have a 50-amp 120/240volt receptacle installed.

My understanding is The GFCI will never work in these situations due to the imbalance between the hot leg and current carrying neutral. A GFCI is looking for anything more than a 5 milliamp difference in current between the hot leg and return neutral.


When the neutral is shared between two lines/legs, the current on the neutral will be out of imbalance with either hot leg. This will trip a GFCI (either one--- or two if both are using GFCI's)


This is why these cheater adapters that you can purchase, state that they will not work if any outlet is on a GFCI, as link below


50Amp PowerGrip Power Maximizer Adapter
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Old 02-08-2021, 09:01 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Tom in Ohio View Post
Has anyone ever seen a 2 15 amp Male to a 50 amp female adapter? I would like to use this in my home RV garage to increase the power available to my RV during storage.
I have 2 separate 15 amp circuits wired in and respective outlets available.
I have a 15 amp male pigtail to a 50 amp female. I think I got it at FredMeyer (Oregon). I have seen them at Walmart, should be available at an RV store or Amazon. There are ones with surge protectors or some type of electronics that are pricy.
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Old 02-08-2021, 09:04 PM   #30
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Sorry, I misunderstood the OPs post, ignore my prior pos
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Old 02-08-2021, 09:08 PM   #31
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Two 15 amp circuits means two 15 amp on two separate breakers in a home which equals 30 amp not 50 amp. 50 amp would be 4 -15 amp seperate home breakers. That would require a 2- 30 amp male to 50 amp female to plug into your trailer cable then two 15 amp male to 30 amp female. All 15 amp would have to be on seperate breakers in the home with 2 15 amp on each leg coming into the breaker panel.
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Old 02-08-2021, 09:14 PM   #32
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Don’t do it!

Are the loads (Fridge-heater-converter) on the same leg? Mine are, when I plug in at home to 30 amp trailer plug with (50 to 30) adapter, everything works. The extra leg is for second a/c. All your loads will still only be served by a 15 amp circuit. 50 amp trailer is really 2 - 25 amp circuits sharing neutral and ground that are tied together. When one leg trips, it trips both. 30 amp and higher circuits are never GFI or ARC fault protected. Using 12 Gauge 3 wire (2 hot -1 neutral -1 ground) is common for dishwasher/ garbage disposal under a sink, 2 circuits sharing neutral and ground- breakers need to be handle tied together at panel (next to each other and mechanically tied together). A extra neutral and ground could back feed if something goes wrong and both legs don’t trip. Don’t do it!
By the way I am a building inspector. FYI many things sold online and at big box home improvement stores are not code compliant- “ I bought it at hxxx dxxxx” I see it all the time.
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Old 02-08-2021, 10:29 PM   #33
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50 amp trailer is really 2 - 25 amp circuits sharing neutral and ground that are tied together. When one leg trips, it trips both. 30 amp and higher circuits are never GFI or ARC fault protected.
FYI: A 30A trailer feed is 30A @ 120V and generally should not be GFCI. A 50A trailer feed is really 50A@240V and is also not GFCI. Since most trailers do not have 240V appliances one may consider it to be two separate 50A 120V circuits inside the trailer. A 50A 240V breaker will share two adjacent spots, share a neutral and ground wire, and should trip if either leg goes over 50A.

As a side note, I believe that things like hot tubs which can be 50A require GFCI breakers.

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Old 02-08-2021, 11:01 PM   #34
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if it's really that important to you, just add two of these to the adapter mentioned in post #2, ... it doesn't look like there's a one piece unit designed to do what you are asking for,

https://www.amazon.com/Leisure-Cords...2842772&sr=8-7

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Old 02-08-2021, 11:07 PM   #35
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Do you already have (or are willing to install) TWO COMPLETELY SEPARATE 15A (or better still 20A) circuits that are close together? Don't think you'll SAFELY get away with plugging BOTH 15A males into the same Standard Duplex "Edison" outlet. If you do that, you'll be lucky if you "only" trip circuit breaker(s). If your jury rigged set up starts a fire, don't be surprised if your homeowners Insurance is cancelled (and, your insurer may have grounds to deny your claim). Tread VERY CAREFULLY here.

NOTE: there is (or was) a "Cheater Cord" available. It had a 15A male plug (or was it 20A?) AND, a 30A male which were "merged" into a standard 50A RV female outlet. When plugged into the "appropriate" outlets, in theory, you got 45A delivered. HOWEVER, when the GFCI (which was generally "required" by code) was present, it would shut down the protected line. Get Mike Sokol's EXCELLENT book (printed or ebook) "No Shock Zone"
LINK: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=No+Shock+Zone&t=osx&ia=web
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Old 02-08-2021, 11:08 PM   #36
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You are correct

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Originally Posted by jimmarako View Post
FYI: A 30A trailer feed is 30A @ 120V and generally should not be GFCI. A 50A trailer feed is really 50A@240V and is also not GFCI. Since most trailers do not have 240V appliances one may consider it to be two separate 50A 120V circuits inside the trailer. A 50A 240V breaker will share two adjacent spots, share a neutral and ground wire, and should trip if either leg goes over 50A.

As a side note, I believe that things like hot tubs which can be 50A require GFCI breakers.

Jim M.
I was suggesting normal higher amperage circuits in a panel (oven/dryer/air conditioner/ev charger) like most things in the code there is always a exception to the rule.
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Old 02-08-2021, 11:18 PM   #37
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I was suggesting normal higher amperage circuits in a panel (oven/dryer/air conditioner/ev charger) like most things in the code there is always a exception to the rule.
Interesting... EV's don't require GFCI? The other items you mentioned are all hardwired or inside. Would a plug in EV charger (outside or in garage) be OK with no GFCI?

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Old 02-09-2021, 12:25 AM   #38
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50 amp trailer is really 2 - 25 amp circuits sharing neutral and ground that are tied together.

In actuality, a 50 amp RV uses a 120/240 volt split phase service as 2-50 amp circuits (12,000 watts), not 2-25 amp circuits.


This link may explain it better.


https://www.rvtechmag.com/electrical/chapter3.php


as well as this graphic:


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Old 05-25-2023, 10:16 AM   #39
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There's nothing wrong with that.

In the usual situation, using a properly-wired campground 50 amp outlet, there is indeed a 240 VAC differential between the L1 and L2 terminals.

In fact, there must be. It's dangerous otherwise.

The reason is that the "50 amp" cord uses a shared neutral. There are only three conductors (besides ground) in the cord: L1, L2, and the shared neutral.

Suppose you have a lot of appliances on: Both A/Cs, microwave, water heater, etc. and are drawing 40 amps through each of L1 and L2. If L1 and L2 were on the same phase (leg), you would have 80 amps (!!) on the shared neutral return.

But because L1 and L2 are opposite phases (legs), they cancel each other out and there is no current in the neutral return. With opposite phases (legs), the maximum current that can flow in the neutral occurs when one leg has 0 current--no cancelling of the other leg's current.

(In the situation under discussion here, it makes no difference because L1 and L2 are limited to 15 amps each. If they were on the same phase (leg), the additive current would only be 30 amps, well within the 50 amp cord rating. If they were on opposite phases (legs), the current could never be more than 15 amps.)
Larry,

This is an old post of yours.

I want to do something similar while moochdocking where I only have access to 115V 15 amp outlets. I read posts after yours and they were mentioning the adapters bought on Amazon/On-line will not work on GFCI outlets. I'm thinking that's because they are combining the neutral from the two different 115V plugs and the GFCI outlets don't like that.

If I create my own box and not connect the neutral from one of the two 115V 15 amp plugs, then plug them in two different phased outlets I would share the same neutral and not trip one of the GFCI? Will this overload the shared neutral?

Thanks,
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Old 05-25-2023, 11:02 AM   #40
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Larry,

This is an old post of yours.

I want to do something similar while moochdocking where I only have access to 115V 15 amp outlets. I read posts after yours and they were mentioning the adapters bought on Amazon/On-line will not work on GFCI outlets. I'm thinking that's because they are combining the neutral from the two different 115V plugs and the GFCI outlets don't like that.

If I create my own box and not connect the neutral from one of the two 115V 15 amp plugs, then plug them in two different phased outlets I would share the same neutral and not trip one of the GFCI? Will this overload the shared neutral?

Thanks,
A GFCI measures the current on the hot leg and the returning neutral. If these are not very close to the same (around 5 milliamps), then the GFCI trips as it means current is going somewhere else (like a human body)

If you will read what Larry wrote above, in a 240 volt split phase scenario, the neutral only carries the imbalance between the L1 and L2 so there could be for example 15 amps on the hot leg but no amps on the neutral since it was equal to the 15 amps on the L2 hot leg.

Because the GFCI is looking for there to be 15 amps on the hot leg and also 15 amps on the neutral (which there is not), it trips.

This is why you cannot use cheater adapters on GFCI outlets.

See this favorite link of mine, which may help:

https://www.rvtechmag.com/electrical/chapter3.php
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