An Electrical Challenge

[Blaster 84]

Last fall I had to replace our converter. An overheated circuit breaker melted the plastic casing.
So I ordered and installed a new one identical to the old.
Since that time whenever I plug into shore power, after a few moments the contacts on my Progressive EMS will chatter and then throws the circuit breakers on my shore panel.
If I have only the Progressive unit wired in, nothing happens. If I have just the converter wired in, nothing happens. Only when both of them are wired in together.
I have even disconnected all the circuit breakers on the converter, it still throws the breakers.
I have talked to tech reps from both companies and they claim it's not their equipment that is causing the problem.
Does anyone have any ideas what the problem may be?

[SeaDog]

Well the only common item you have mentioned is the circuit breaker you changed. I think I would replace it and at the same time check and tighten all the wiring. good luck let the forum know what you find and correct.

[CHICKDOE]

i'm only guessing and much more info is needed. go back to the original problem. a circuit breaker overheated. you replaced it. what did you do to correct the situation that was causing the overheating?


the progressive ems only monitors the input side leads. if it sees an error condition on the input leads it is designed to open its contact and cut off power from going through it. the fact that you say the contact chatter seems to imply it is seeing something wrong in the input leads (or it could be defective). the fact that the shore power panel breakers trip seem to imply that somehow they are seeing an overload. now with the converter turned off the ems does not chatter and the panel breakers do not trip. probably because there is minimal amperage flowing. put the converter inline and things start to happen. what bothers me is that the converter would be on a branch circuit off of the main distribution panel. this branch circuit would have its own circuit breaker in it and it would be of a lower amperage rating than the breaker in the shore power panel. if the converter were overdrawing I would expect this branch circuit breaker to trip before the panel breaker. unless there is a bad breaker on the panel.


I think I would double check everything on the shore power panel first. then i'd look at the converter and the 12 lines that it powers. something originally caused that circuit breaker to overheat. you replaced it, but did you find and correct whatever caused it to overheat?

[wmtire]

Originally Posted by Blaster 84

Last fall I had to replace our converter. An overheated circuit breaker melted the plastic casing.
So I ordered and installed a new one identical to the old.
Since that time whenever I plug into shore power, after a few moments the contacts on my Progressive EMS will chatter and then throws the circuit breakers on my shore panel.
If I have only the Progressive unit wired in, nothing happens. If I have just the converter wired in, nothing happens. Only when both of them are wired in together.
I have even disconnected all the circuit breakers on the converter, it still throws the breakers.
I have talked to tech reps from both companies and they claim it's not their equipment that is causing the problem.
Does anyone have any ideas what the problem may be?

As in most troubleshooting problems, especially electrical, we are going to need to figure out some terminology you are using. Pics would help out so much.

We will start at what I emboldened in green. What do you mean exactly that an overheated circuit breaker melted the converter? What brand/type converter did you replace?

Now on orange, what circuit breakers specifically is the EMS tripping. "Breakers" is just a plural term and doesn't narrow anything down. You stated shore panel, but what breakers are on the shore panel. Is it just to the outlet you are connected to with your shore power cord, or every breaker on the panel?

Now in blue, what do you mean by "wired in"? Your converter is always connected unless you unplug or disconnect it. Your EMS, is it the hardwired kind, or the portable kind. What brand/model EMS are you discussing?

For red, and this is the most confusing of all, what circuit breakers are you talking about that are 'ON" the converter?

It may be you are calling something one thing, but may possible be something else (I'm thinking maybe electrical distribution panel/power center and converter are getting mixed up). Again, pics would help out so much.

[cavie]

Originally Posted by Blaster 84

Last fall I had to replace our converter. An overheated circuit breaker melted the plastic casing.
So I ordered and installed a new one identical to the old.
Since that time whenever I plug into shore power, after a few moments the contacts on my Progressive EMS will chatter and then throws the circuit breakers on my shore panel.
If I have only the Progressive unit wired in, nothing happens. If I have just the converter wired in, nothing happens. Only when both of them are wired in together.
I have even disconnected all the circuit breakers on the converter, it still throws the breakers.
I have talked to tech reps from both companies and they claim it's not their equipment that is causing the problem.
Does anyone have any ideas what the problem may be?

What do you mean by this? ems wired in only in only? All by it'self?

If I have just the converter wired in, nothing happens. Does this mean the converter is working?

Are you plug in to a campground pedistal or a home wired outlet?

[Blaster 84]

Originally Posted by SeaDog

Well the only common item you have mentioned is the circuit breaker you changed. I think I would replace it and at the same time check and tighten all the wiring. good luck let the forum know what you find and correct.

I assume you are referring to the circuit breaker that keeps tripping. I didn't change it, however I plugged into different receptacles which are on different breakers with the same results.
I don't know that it would make any difference, but I am plugging into a commercial building and nothing else was being used at the time because this was after business hours.

[Blaster 84]

Originally Posted by CHICKDOE

i'm only guessing and much more info is needed. go back to the original problem. a circuit breaker overheated. you replaced it. what did you do to correct the situation that was causing the overheating?


the progressive ems only monitors the input side leads. if it sees an error condition on the input leads it is designed to open its contact and cut off power from going through it. the fact that you say the contact chatter seems to imply it is seeing something wrong in the input leads (or it could be defective). the fact that the shore power panel breakers trip seem to imply that somehow they are seeing an overload. now with the converter turned off the ems does not chatter and the panel breakers do not trip. probably because there is minimal amperage flowing. put the converter inline and things start to happen. what bothers me is that the converter would be on a branch circuit off of the main distribution panel. this branch circuit would have its own circuit breaker in it and it would be of a lower amperage rating than the breaker in the shore power panel. if the converter were overdrawing I would expect this branch circuit breaker to trip before the panel breaker. unless there is a bad breaker on the panel.


I think I would double check everything on the shore power panel first. then i'd look at the converter and the 12 lines that it powers. something originally caused that circuit breaker to overheat. you replaced it, but did you find and correct whatever caused it to overheat?

I contributed the original overheating to a breaker in the converter arcing internally as their is evidence of high heat on the breaker where it connects to the buss bar. The buss bar transferred the heat to the mounting screw that holds the buss to the plastic cabinet. That's where it melted. This is the main 30/15 AMP breaker for the converter panel.
However with all of these breakers disconnected the shore power still trips.
According to the converter techs there is still power to the circuit board that controls the DC current, but if a problem exist here it should have blown a fuse on the panel.
I will have to disgust your reply some more to see if I understand it completely.

[fonzie]

Is the shore power receptacle on a GFCI breaker from the main building?

[cavie]

Originally Posted by Blaster 84

I contributed the original overheating to a breaker in the converter arcing internally as their is evidence of high heat on the breaker where it connects to the buss bar. The buss bar transferred the heat to the mounting screw that holds the buss to the plastic cabinet. That's where it melted. This is the main 30/15 AMP breaker for the converter panel.
However with all of these breakers disconnected the shore power still trips.
According to the converter techs there is still power to the circuit board that controls the DC current, but if a problem exist here it should have blown a fuse on the panel.
I will have to disgust your reply some more to see if I understand it completely.

1st change the breaker that overheated. Are you plugged into a 20 amp 120 volt outlet on the comercial building? If so there may be a GFI breaker involved.

There is no main 30/15 breaker. The 30 is the main breaker. the 15 next to it is for something else. Can you provide a picture of your panel? If your EMS is connected to a GFI breaker then it will not work because there is a GFI circuit in tour trailer. 2 gfi's do not play nice.

[Blaster 84]

Originally Posted by wmtire

As in most troubleshooting problems, especially electrical, we are going to need to figure out some terminology you are using. Pics would help out so much.

We will start at what I emboldened in green. What do you mean exactly that an overheated circuit breaker melted the converter? What brand/type converter did you replace?

Now on orange, what circuit breakers specifically is the EMS tripping. "Breakers" is just a plural term and doesn't narrow anything down. You stated shore panel, but what breakers are on the shore panel. Is it just to the outlet you are connected to with your shore power cord, or every breaker on the panel?

Now in blue, what do you mean by "wired in"? Your converter is always connected unless you unplug or disconnect it. Your EMS, is it the hardwired kind, or the portable kind. What brand/model EMS are you discussing?

For red, and this is the most confusing of all, what circuit breakers are you talking about that are 'ON" the converter?

It may be you are calling something one thing, but may possible be something else (I'm thinking maybe electrical distribution panel/power center and converter are getting mixed up). Again, pics would help out so much.

Thanks for your questions WMTIRE. I hope this will help clarify for everyone, including me.
I have a WFCO converter with distribution panel. Model WF-8955PEC.
The main 30/15 AMP was arcing or overheating somehow internally as evidence of burnt marks on the plastic where the clip marks of the breaker attach to the buss bar. The buss bar transferred the heat to the nearby mounting screw and melted the plastic.

I will work on getting pictures. I have not done that before, but I will try.

The tripped breaker, singular, is in the electrical panel box of the shore power building. Irregardless which circuit I plug into, it'll trip the breaker associated with that receptacle.

When I installed the EMS several years ago I Installed a plug on a short cord on one side a receptacle on a short cord on the other side of the EMS. So if necessary I could unplug the EMS and immediately plug in the converter.

[Blaster 84]

Originally Posted by cavie

What do you mean by this? ems wired in only in only? All by it'self?

If I have just the converter wired in, nothing happens. Does this mean the converter is working?

Are you plug in to a campground pedistal or a home wired outlet?

What I meant, by nothing happening, it's not blowing any breakers in the shore power building. This is with the circuit breakers on the control panel disconnected. However if I reconnect the EMS without changing conditions in the converter it trips the breaker in the shore power, which is a building.

[Bluepill]

It would be very helpful if you can connect an AC voltmeter to the output of the EMS to see if there is a voltage drop when the chatter takes place.

[Blaster 84]

Originally Posted by cavie

1st change the breaker that overheated. Are you plugged into a 20 amp 120 volt outlet on the comercial building? If so there may be a GFI breaker involved.

There is no main 30/15 breaker. The 30 is the main breaker. the 15 next to it is for something else. Can you provide a picture of your panel? If your EMS is connected to a GFI breaker then it will not work because there is a GFI circuit in tour trailer. 2 gfi's do not play nice.

You are correct, it's not a main. It might be better described as a 30 AMP breaker and a 15 AMP breaker connected together with 1 clip to the buss bar. I am sure there is a technical term for these, but I don't know what it is.

There is no GFI on either circuit I tried. i have plugged into these circuits before with no problem.

[TitanMike]

Originally Posted by Blaster 84

The tripped breaker, singular, is in the electrical panel box of the shore power building. Irregardless which circuit I plug into, it'll trip the breaker associated with that receptacle.

I suspect that the receptacle you are plugging into is only a 20 amp circuit at max. (unless specifically wired for 30 amp and uses an RV type receptacle). If you had enough current draw to burn the 30 amp Circuit Breakers connection to the bus you certainly appear to have more than enough current draw to pop a 20 amp breaker.

Going back to the original issue of the burned bus, have you used an clamp type AC ammeter to check the current both ahead of, and behind, the EMS? I'd go searching for the high current draw in your system. From what I read it appears you have something that draws enough current to overheat your 30 amp main breaker in the Power Center. Find that culprit or you will be forever fighting this problem.

[cavie]

Has the ems ever worked? Did it start acting up after you altered something?

If you can work off just the converter and you trip it with the EMS, I suspect you have not wired the ems correctly.

[Blaster 84]

Originally Posted by Bluepill

It would be very helpful if you can connect an AC voltmeter to the output of the EMS to see if there is a voltage drop when the chatter takes place.

I have not done that. However I have watched the remote readout. On one occasion just prior to the breaker tripping the code indicated an open ground.
However using a continuity tester I did not find anything open. I did mention this to the Progressive Tech, but he wasn't too concerned about it.

[Blaster 84]

Originally Posted by TitanMike

I suspect that the receptacle you are plugging into is only a 20 amp circuit at max. (unless specifically wired for 30 amp and uses an RV type receptacle). If you had enough current draw to burn the 30 amp Circuit Breakers connection to the bus you certainly appear to have more than enough current draw to pop a 20 amp breaker.

Going back to the original issue of the burned bus, have you used an clamp type AC ammeter to check the current both ahead of, and behind, the EMS? I'd go searching for the high current draw in your system. From what I read it appears you have something that draws enough current to overheat your 30 amp main breaker in the Power Center. Find that culprit or you will be forever fighting this problem.

I will try that this week. Although theoretically it shouldn't be drawing anything because I had all the circuit breakers pulled off the buss bar.

[Blaster 84]

Originally Posted by cavie

Has the ems ever worked? Did it start acting up after you altered something?

If you can work off just the converter and you trip it with the EMS, I suspect you have not wired the ems correctly.

The EMS has worked fine in past years, i.e. If there is low voltage at a campground it'll shut down for awhile until the voltage picks back up.
This problem only started with the new converter and no wired was changed in the EMS.

[cavie]

Originally Posted by Blaster 84

The EMS has worked fine in past years, i.e. If there is low voltage at a campground it'll shut down for awhile until the voltage picks back up.
This problem only started with the new converter and no wired was changed in the EMS.

OK. the trailer works on Converter alone right? If plugged into the EMS, it trips the building 20 amp breaker right? The ems doesn't shut off, it trips the breaker right?

[Scrapper]

Since this problem started when you changed the converter I will say you mis-wired it. Did you label the wires or make a drawing of how the original converter was connected before you started removing it? Taking pictures of the wiring before starting would help, too. Check all the wires to make sure you didn't leave one or more loose/not connected. If you don't have any way to refer as to how the original was wired it's going to be hard to check for a mis-wire.

But, it still doesn't address the problem of high amp draw which caused the original breakers to melt.

Maybe these documents will help you.