An inexperienced newbie here!

Britshark · 07-10-2021, 03:45 PM

Hello everybody,

I am on the verge of collecting a travel trailer & going full time, with no experience at all. I have been watching so many Youtube videos that my eyes are square & I thought it would be helpful if I joined your forum.

My motorcycle, car & house are sold. The house sale was closed on two weeks ago & so I am basically homeless! I had already made a decision as to which trailer I was going to purchase & I put down a deposit on a Wildwood Heritage Glen 270FKS back in the middle of May. Since then I have been trying to get information from the dealer as to what equipment I need and what else I can get added to the trailer to help make my life a little easier full timing on my own. It has been the worst experience of my life! I cannot believe that I am having so much trouble trying to give my hard earned money to a company while having to do the salesman's job for him?

From my very first visit to the dealer I explained that I am intending to live 50/50 camp & boondock. Today I find out, from my own research, that the WHG270FKS has a residential refrigerator & that means I cannot use it while boondocking.

Are there options to resolve this with solar, or anything else, or should I just pick a different trailer? I really like & want this floor plan, with it's abundant storage, but I am frustrated to the point that I feel like telling the dealer to 'take a hike' but I only have a couple of weeks before I have to get out of the house!

Thank you in anticipation for any assistance.

"Cheers!"

**wmtire** · 07-10-2021, 03:51 PM

It's always best to gain some experience and/or work out any kinks in a new RV before hitting the road. This is referred to as driveway camping...as in camping in your driveway at your house. That way any problems that rear their ugly head won't leave you stranded or unprepared.

This doesn't sound feasible though in your situation.

You can still boondock with a residential fridge if you have inverter.

Please read this thread which is aimed at new RV owners to gain some understanding of your systems. I would definitely read the 'converter/inverter they are different' thread.

https://www.forestriverforums.com/fo...ts-157524.html

The good thing is you will have a great support system here in the forums. Ask questions and you will get help.

U.S.ArmyVeteran · 07-10-2021, 03:54 PM

Welcome aboard.

My first question would be what tow vehicle are you planning on towing with. The refrigerator can be swapped out or other power changes made. Lets leave that for later.

Nice floor plan.

Britshark · 07-10-2021, 06:52 PM

Hi Army Vet & "thank you for your service" Sir!

My towing vehicle is a Ford Expedition & I have been through the GCWR - towing vehicle exercise. I am only left with a 1,000 lb deficit so not much wiggle room.

But I am more concerned about the fact that wherever I go & ask I cannot get a firm answer on how much power I need from solar to be able to boondock in the chosen RV? Until I get that answer I am unable to decide if the GCWR will be compromised or if I can even afford the solar set up?

Appreciate the response.

Regards,

Britshark · 07-10-2021, 07:07 PM

Thank you for the response Sir,

and you are correct. Driveway camping is not an option for me.

I'm trying to avoid taking the trailer from the dealership before I have them install everything I may need. But it's getting them to advise me on what I need that's the problem!

My initial frustration is that not even the dealership can give me a straight answer as to what set up options are available to work with the chosen travel trailer, a residential fridge & 2 12v batteries? How much solar power do I need to run that? Unfortunately, I have no confidence remaining in their competence.
They can't even tell me if it has an inverter although it does have a simple 100W solar panel already installed?
Hence my looking for others whom may have experienced the same issue within this forum.

I think I am on the correct page regarding converter/inverter but I shall read the provided link anyway.

Thanks again Sir.

Regards,

WanderMore · 07-10-2021, 07:16 PM

Not to put too fine a point on it but you will need a power alternate to solar for those times it remains overcast and dank for a week (or two). Don’t forget to calculate enough battery to store all those electrons for the days of bleakness.

boondocking · 07-10-2021, 07:37 PM

From the trailer specs it looks like that is a 12 volt fridge.
Here is a good discussion on boondocking with a 12v fridge.

Homebrew · 07-10-2021, 07:37 PM

Start by purchasing a generator and a few gas cans.

Hclarkx · 07-10-2021, 11:17 PM

If the fridge is 12V and has a Danfoss/Secor compressor, you are in good shape. IMHO, this and your 50/50 camp boondock goal is all you need to know. As a starting point, I'll assume you have an 8-10 cubic foot 12V Danfoss compressor based fridge and it uses inside air for the condenser. Such a fridge will draw 5.2 amps when running. The maker will probably tell you it will run a 50% duty cycle in a 70F ambient. And it will run a 100% duty cycle in a 100F ambient. Since you will do a lot of boondocking (no A/C) you will see some warm inside temps. Probably not 100F very often but high. So, going worst case (camping in 100F and having 100F inside), you will need about 5.2 times 24 or about 120 Amperehours for the fridge. So, overnight the fridge will need around 80 Ah from the battery and during the day it will need 40 Ah from the solar. And the solar will need added capacity to re-charge the battery. I.e., all of the 120 Ah will come from solar .... or more depending on battery type. Add 10-15 Ah if you will have lead acid batteries.

So if you go lithium battery, you will need something over 80 Ah usable. Because my assumptions are fairly optimistic, I'd say 100 Ah of lithium capacity allotted to the fridge is about right. About 300W of solar will provide the 120 Ah when the sun is good and you are not in shade (a generator will be needed for inclement weather and shade).

If you go lead-acid (AGM), you will need more battery (to stay around 50% SOC by morning) and another 100W of solar for battery losses during charge and discharge).

If you are going solar in any event, you will be increasing the solar by about 300W and adding about 100 Ah (lithium) to your battery system for the fridge.

Do note my assumptions. They are based on my system and my experience. Some larger 12V fridges now exist I think, two-door side by side and such. If the fridge is more than a basic two-door 8-10 cu ft one, you will need to scale up my numbers. If you camp where it always cools off at night, you will need less battery to cover the fridge. If the fridge is a dual-compressor model and you will keep the freezer below 15-20F, that will add a bit to the battery and solar needed to cover the fridge.

BTW, the dealer is the last place you want to shop for a solar system. DIY is best, but an independent will be much more likely to give you an adequate system.

U.S.ArmyVeteran · 07-11-2021, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Britshark

Hi Army Vet & "thank you for your service" Sir!

My towing vehicle is a Ford Expedition & I have been through the GCWR - towing vehicle exercise. I am only left with a 1,000 lb deficit so not much wiggle room.

But I am more concerned about the fact that wherever I go & ask I cannot get a firm answer on how much power I need from solar to be able to boondock in the chosen RV? Until I get that answer I am unable to decide if the GCWR will be compromised or if I can even afford the solar set up?

Appreciate the response.

Regards,

You are quite welcome. Appreciate it.

There is a power calculator for solar based on approximate power requirements. I will find it and post it asap. Getting a generator is a probably a requirement.

Be back. But I'm sure someone will beat me to it

U.S.ArmyVeteran · 07-11-2021, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Britshark

Hi Army Vet & "thank you for your service" Sir!

My towing vehicle is a Ford Expedition & I have been through the GCWR - towing vehicle exercise. I am only left with a 1,000 lb deficit so not much wiggle room.

But I am more concerned about the fact that wherever I go & ask I cannot get a firm answer on how much power I need from solar to be able to boondock in the chosen RV? Until I get that answer I am unable to decide if the GCWR will be compromised or if I can even afford the solar set up?

Appreciate the response.

Regards,

This is a pretty good source of info to get you pointed in the right direction.

https://www.boondockersbible.com/kno...v-boondocking/

https://www.boondockersbible.com/kno...-run-my-rv-ac/

Good Luck!

Guspech750 · 07-11-2021, 12:53 AM

What year Expedition?

Hclarkx · 07-11-2021, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hclarkx

If the fridge is 12V and has a Danfoss/Secor compressor, you are in good shape. IMHO, this and your 50/50 camp boondock goal is all you need to know. As a starting point, I'll assume you have an 8-10 cubic foot 12V Danfoss compressor based fridge and it uses inside air for the condenser. Such a fridge will draw 5.2 amps when running. The maker will probably tell you it will run a 50% duty cycle in a 70F ambient. And it will run a 100% duty cycle in a 100F ambient. Since you will do a lot of boondocking (no A/C) you will see some warm inside temps. Probably not 100F very often but high. So, going worst case (camping in 100F and having 100F inside), you will need about 5.2 times 24 or about 120 Amperehours for the fridge. So, overnight the fridge will need around 80 Ah from the battery and during the day it will need 40 Ah from the solar. And the solar will need added capacity to re-charge the battery. I.e., all of the 120 Ah will come from solar .... or more depending on battery type. Add 10-15 Ah if you will have lead acid batteries.

So if you go lithium battery, you will need something over 80 Ah usable. Because my assumptions are fairly optimistic, I'd say 100 Ah of lithium capacity allotted to the fridge is about right. About 300W of solar will provide the 120 Ah when the sun is good and you are not in shade (a generator will be needed for inclement weather and shade).

If you go lead-acid (AGM), you will need more battery (to stay around 50% SOC by morning) and another 100W of solar for battery losses during charge and discharge).

If you are going solar in any event, you will be increasing the solar by about 300W and adding about 100 Ah (lithium) to your battery system for the fridge.

Do note my assumptions. They are based on my system and my experience. Some larger 12V fridges now exist I think, two-door side by side and such. If the fridge is more than a basic two-door 8-10 cu ft one, you will need to scale up my numbers. If you camp where it always cools off at night, you will need less battery to cover the fridge. If the fridge is a dual-compressor model and you will keep the freezer below 15-20F, that will add a bit to the battery and solar needed to cover the fridge.

BTW, the dealer is the last place you want to shop for a solar system. DIY is best, but an independent will be much more likely to give you an adequate system.

CORRECTION .......... In the second paragraph I said "optimistic" .... I meant to say "pessimistic." It won't be often that you will camp in 100F conditions with 100F inside the RV and need the compressor to run 24 hours. However, that's not a bad design goal since as is often said, you can't have too much battery or solar.

Hclarkx · 07-11-2021, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Britshark

But I am more concerned about the fact that wherever I go & ask I cannot get a firm answer on how much power I need from solar to be able to boondock in the chosen RV? Until I get that answer I am unable to decide if the GCWR will be compromised or if I can even afford the solar set up?

This indeed is challenging. There are a whole lot of variables to consider. There are very few experts out there beyond those of us here on the forums that have lived through the process of building and expanding a system. I.e., we can offer experience.

I started with 200W and a pair of 6V 232 Ah batteries. A year later I had 400W and a 300 Ah lithium battery. A year after that I added 200W of solar. That 600W of solar and 300 Ah of LiFePO4 did well for the next three years. My generator has not been used since I went to 400W (though there were close calls with 400W).

Then I got a 12V fridge (9.1 cu ft Nova Kool RFU-9000) a year ago. I knew from experience that I had 100 Ah unused in the 300 Ah battery so added 400W of solar. With one year on the Nova Kool, experience tells me I could have gotten away with 200W of added solar because my 600 had some margin. Though having 1000W is comforting. I rarely engage more than 600W of it. And I now leave the generator home on most outings (typically 5 week excursions).

I avoid summer heat so have never had the fridge in 24 hour near-100F conditions. I've seen 100F but only for a couple of hours in the afternoon. Any warmer conditions and that extra solar would get used.

My 12V fridge uses indoor air for the condenser so indoor ambient is more important than outdoor ambient. However, I do not have A/C so our indoor temps do get up to the outdoor temps later in the afternoon (I only boondock and dry-camp). I.e., in my particular situation a 12V fridge using indoor air would behave about the same as one using outdoor air for condenser cooling.

So, one option I suggest is to start modest and add battery and solar as necessary to limit generator use to what you are comfortable with. Arrange the panels on the roof so that there is maximum room for expansion. The battery is a trickier decision. If you expect to use a lot of electricity and want to largely avoid generator use, maybe 200 Ah LiFePO4 and adding more 200's later if you find a need for more.

To plan a more robust system at the outset, as others have mentioned, start with estimating your loads. First add up night loads since they dictate battery capacity. Then add day loads and battery charging to determine the solar requirement.

The efficacy of a given solar array depends on where you camp. I spend a lot of time on the California coast in the late fall and early spring (sun doesn't get all that high and there are some daily clouds) so I design for that. When I am in sunnier areas in late spring or early fall, I get twice the solar I need.

I'm talking the 11 Western States here. In some parts of the Country clouds make solar almost useless. So where and when you camp are important. There is an on-line app called PVWatts that will tell you what to expect from a given amount of solar panel anywhere in the Country at any time of the year. It's supported by the National Renewable Energy Lab in Denver and is well developed by 25 years of testing and updates. It is very accurate and provides statistically representative weather patterns so you can plan enough battery to ride through typical inclement weather where you camp.

The spreadsheets referenced by others will help with the load estimate. My own load includes CPAP, microwave, toaster, espresso machine, 120V fans, 12V fans, a modest home theater, two laptop computers, cell phone amp, 12V fridge, propane space heater fan, lights (all LED), two ceiling exhaust fans (lots of use) and ubiquitous USB chargers, and an inverter that runs 24/7 (the inverter alone uses about 15 Ah ... some use more). With all of this and just two adults, I rarely use 100 Ah from dusk to dawn. I am careful to camp in full sun when possible.

If you are into spreadsheets, PM me and I'll send you one that predicts your generator run events month by month given 1) your day and night loads; 2) amount of solar; 3) amount of battery capacity; 4) where you camp; 5) a handful of other parameters. It uses hour by hour sun data from PVWatts to simulate representative weather patterns where you plan to camp. It includes a page where you enter load data. You can adjust solar and battery parameters to see how they affect your generator run events. I personally design for 0 generator run events. This spreadsheet has done very well for me on my last two solar upgrades. It's not for the feint of heart!! It's well documented, but does require a lot of data. The spreadsheet is based on use of a LiFePO4 battery. However, you can increase the projected solar need by 35% to cover AGM battery losses. PM me if you'd like to give it a try. It requires Excel or similar.

Grapehound · 07-11-2021, 01:50 PM

Britshark, your experience with dealer staff is pretty normal. People who used to work in a supermarket now sell campers. They've never owned one or camped in one. (There are exceptions.) Don't expect them to provide you with detailed information about your camper's systems. In fairness there are many dfferent sizes and styles of refrigerators, and they should (but may not) know what type of power it uses (12v., 110v., or propane), but they may not.

When you say a residential refrigerator, there are units which use 110 v. only; then there are units that use propane or electric (110v). There may be purely 12 v. electric fridges but I have not owned any. Refrigerators which run off propane (which may not be an option in your trailer) do use some 12v electric. I think propane would be a better option than solely using electric when boondocking. (Trailer needs to be level.)

The best way to learn aout the appliances in your RV is to gp inside the trailer and identify the brand and model number and research that brand and model online. Many manufacturers put the manual for your appliance online, even if the RV does not come with a manual.

You are very wise to get all this settled before you buy. Once you drive off the lot with your RV and some appliance fails, many dealers say "Who are you? Get in line for the next available appointment in three months."

Dealers are looking for the next sale; they want to move units and get paid. Your options or outfitting your RV for boondocking or your experiences camping are not of any moment to your dealer.

You are very smart to do your homework in all that you do. It will pay off for you and there any many knowledgeable people on this forum who are more than willing to help you. We were all newbies once.

The good news is there is no initiation here.

Welcome aboard!

Britshark · 07-11-2021, 02:08 PM

Hound,

thank you very much for your reply & assistance. I obviously was expecting way too much from my dealer?

The 'residential' fridge is apparently 12v only, which I recently found out 2 weeks before I pick up the trailer, hence my new source of frustration & need to find a solution.

Lots of people giving me lots of information that I am trying to process. What I really need is someone to tell me how minimum watts of solar power, how many AH battery life & what size generator I need because I am starting to panic with my time restraints!

Give me pile of rocks & a shovel & can build you a beautiful water feature but all of this is outside of my comfort zone.

Thanks again for your help.

Regards,

jkoenig24 · 07-11-2021, 02:11 PM

Although it CAN be done, it WILL be difficult and expensive. You'd need a LARGE LiIon battery bank, multiple solar panels (with the needed accessories) and an inverter / generator (for when the sun DON'T shine for days & days). Since you're a "newbie", I would NOT recommend this as a "starting strategy".

I recommend the people new to RVing START SMALL and learn first hand what you NEED, what you would LIKE, what you DON'T like and what you absolutely DON'T want. I also advise newbies to find and attend an RV Boot Camp. The weekend (or week) you spend at RVBC will answer most of your questions, give you the opportunity to see LOTS of rigs and speak with RV owners. RVBC will demystify arcane (but important topices) like RATINGS, electrical, water, propane systems and so much more. I believe the Escapees RV Club started this important educational tool and since then, RVBC has been copied by other providers. GOOD LUCK!

DrLewie · 07-11-2021, 02:11 PM

A lot of folks here, me included, would have recommended trying before buying. Also trying before deciding to full-time. There are a lot of issues and decisions to make before selling hearth and home and hitting the road full-time. Too late there, but I would certainly rent an RV or two before purchasing just to determine if this is something you really want to do. If its too late for that, as already suggested, before hitting the road on a long-term adventure, it would be a good idea to go to a nearby campground for a few days or a week and test everything because there are almost always issues with a new rig. You may need to call the dealer with questions or even make a check list with items in need of warranty work, even with a brand new rig. A test camping trip will also give you a better handle on what you need to bring with you, what you need to leave behind, and what you need to buy. In any case, welcome to the RV world. Its a lot of fun, though sometimes challenging, and it will definitely be an adventure.

Grapehound · 07-11-2021, 02:27 PM

Another challenge you have is changing environmental conditions. The power a refrigerator needs and the power supplied by solar changes according to where you are boondocking.

As others have suggested, all the refrigerator's power requirements and amount of power available changes if you are parked in a sunny hot location. If you park in a sunny spot in the Arizona desert, you get more power from solar but you need a lot more power due to the ambient heat load inside your RV (with no a/c).

If you park in a cool foggy spot along lake Lake Superior, you don't need as much power to cool the fridge but you get a lot less power from solar to provide that minimal need.

It seems to me from what the experts are telling you is that you'd be better off sizing the batteries and the collector capacity as large as you can and then see how your system performs where you camp. I frankly think that while calculations will help a lot, you will find the power requirements vary from place to place according to weather and temperature and the power demands of what you have. There is likely no one clear answer to your power requirement question, in my mind, but that bigger batteries, better batteries, and bigger collectors are probably better for your boondocking needs.

Either way a small generator is probably a necessity for darker solar periods, a larger one for using a/c too.

JKoenig 24 and DrLewie are so smart to say to start small and try out your camper close to home, close to your dealer, before you make any big investments. You may be asking the wrong question here. It may not be about your refrigerator's power demands but about how you like the camping lifestyle.

Hell, you may find you don't even like camping!

Britshark · 07-11-2021, 02:39 PM

So much useful information, for which I am extremely, grateful but having a little difficulty processing in the short amount of time I have to resolve this issue.
Along with move furniture, have a yard sale, fill up a storage unit, go to work & start back therapy tomorrow, before I have to be out of the house in approx' 2 weeks, this is the last thing I needed to have to worry about!

Not a spread sheet guy but If you give me a pile of boulders & a shovel I will build you a beautiful water feature. Unfortunately, all of this is way out of my comfort zone.

I understand that there are many variables but if I may try to dumb it down to my level. I cannot claim that money is no object & I am not going to be earning any money while on the road. However, I would like to think that, on my planned budget, that I can be on the road for a couple of years at least. So, what would be the minimum that you would suggest I start out with? For example 400W of solar, 200AH lithium battery power & what size generator?

As hitting as many NParks as possible is a goal It may be that I end up not doing as much boondocking as would like & I haven't ruled out purchasing a different trailer to make things easier just yet?

My main concern is that I end up with the wrong trailer & my 'adventure' is sorely disappointing & troublesome after waiting 26 years to do this. For various reasons this is my only shot at this.

Thanks so much for all of your time & advice, it is so greatly appreciated.

Regards,

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