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Old 03-04-2017, 11:11 AM   #1
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Chassis alternator charging deep cycle house batteries

What are your thoughts on the impact on deep cycle batteries when charged by the chassis alternator? When you plug in to shore power or use a generator, your house batteries are charged by your convertor which has some form of intelligence that monitors the battery charging needs and then applies the appropriate charging current/voltage.

My understanding of the alternator connection is that it is a direct connection without any special charge controls to be suited for deep cycle batteries.

What is the impact on the house batteries over the life span of the batteries?
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Old 03-04-2017, 12:52 PM   #2
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Unless you install a separate alternator to charge the house batteries (done on some boats), the alternator regulator is going to "see" the combination of the starting battery and the house batteries. Regulator programming is going to determine what actually happens, but most likely the alternator will be set at about 13.7V and hold there. Eventually all batteries will be fully charged.

The alternator may kick in higher (14.4V) when you first start up.

Remember that the batteries will equalize the voltage when they are connected together at the alternator.

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Old 03-04-2017, 01:26 PM   #3
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Unless you install a separate alternator to charge the house batteries (done on some boats), the alternator regulator is going to "see" the combination of the starting battery and the house batteries. Regulator programming is going to determine what actually happens, but most likely the alternator will be set at about 13.7V and hold there. Eventually all batteries will be fully charged.

The alternator may kick in higher (14.4V) when you first start up.

Remember that the batteries will equalize the voltage when they are connected together at the alternator.

Fred W
I agree with your assessment. Deep cycle batteries require different charging parameters for maximum life and efficiency than cranking batteries. The chassis alternator and regulator are set up to charge cranking batteries. When ever you hook up deep cycle batteries to solar or a convertor they will be charged per deep cycle requirements. I wonder if it's good for 2 6 volt golf cart, deep cycle batteries that are at close to 50% discharge to then be rapidly charged by a chassis alternator which does not know they are deep cycle batteries?

You also always hear that battery types should not be mixed while charging, so what impact does the fact that the cranking batteries are connected to the house batteries during charge have on either battery type?
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Old 03-04-2017, 01:55 PM   #4
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I charge 3 deep cycles off my truck alternator along with the 2 factory batteries for the truck. Have zero problems in 4 years. Also use the truck batteries as addition trailer batteries when dry camping. Once again never a problem. Biggest thing with vehicles is clean, tight connections at the batteries and alternator
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Old 03-04-2017, 02:35 PM   #5
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I charge 3 deep cycles off my truck alternator along with the 2 factory batteries for the truck. Have zero problems in 4 years. Also use the truck batteries as addition trailer batteries when dry camping. Once again never a problem. Biggest thing with vehicles is clean, tight connections at the batteries and alternator
I too have charged deep cycle batteries off the alternator for years in several different RV's without known issue. I just feel there has to be some kind of impact charging mixed battery types on an alternator, or why do convertors and solar charge controller's specify battery type and charging profiles specific for deep cycle batteries?
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Old 03-04-2017, 04:27 PM   #6
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I too have charged deep cycle batteries off the alternator for years in several different RV's without known issue. I just feel there has to be some kind of impact charging mixed battery types on an alternator, or why do convertors and solar charge controller's specify battery type and charging profiles specific for deep cycle batteries?
You are expecting something that's not there.

Vehicle alternators have 2 tasks - recharging the battery while the vehicle is running, AND supplying the 12V power being used by the vehicle (which can be considerable these days).

In the old days of vehicle generators, you could actually tune the output voltage to match your battery usage. You'd want a slightly higher voltage if you did short haul driving, and a lower voltage if you did long haul. The higher voltage would be to recharge the battery faster, the lower voltage would be to prevent boiling away your battery water through over-charging.

Modern vehicle alternators generally charge at 2 voltages - 14.4V initially to quickly recharge the starting battery, and 13.7V to carry the loads and to top off the battery charge. You can measure voltage at your car or truck battery to verify. 14.4V is about as high as you can safely go without burning out light bulbs or frying more sensitive electronics that are operating while driving. 14.4V is barely enough for bulk mode charging of batteries - the actual current going into the battery will be limited by the battery to less than 20 amps.

Your RV converter is very similar. The 3 stage converters add a trickle charge mode which drops voltage to 13.2V after 40+ hours at the higher voltage to avoid long-term boiling of battery water (not needed in a vehicle alternator). The 4th stage (if the converter has one) is just a short burst of 14.4V to "stir up" the battery when in trickle mode. The 4th stage creates bubbles for a few minutes to cause the electrolyte in the cell to circulate.

Both RV converters and vehicle alternators are specifically limited to prevent them from destroying batteries through over-charging or excess voltages. The limitations do make recharge times a little (or a lot) longer than they have to be. It doesn't really matter the battery type - the alternator or converter operating correctly is not going to over-charge - even if it means a longer time to fully recharge.

A solar regulator attempts to maximize the recharging done by the solar panels. Charge voltages are generally higher (if the panel is providing that much) to take maximum advantage of the solar energy. The solar regulator will push much closer to the charging limit of the particular battery if there is energy enough to do so. Hence, the battery construction becomes important to the solar regulator. Internal battery temperature also plays a role in determining maximum charge rates - the most sophisticated solar regulators also use battery temperature as a parameter.

I use 2 Interstate GC-2 232AH batteries on my A-frame. I switched to a Progressive Dynamics converter when my OEM WFCO converter never went into trickle mode (measured voltages to find out). The PD converter and the alternator in my Hyundai do a fine job of maintaining the batteries. The batteries are sized to carry my A-frame for 4 consecutive 30 degree nights with 50% run time on the heater. By the end of 4 nights dry camping at one site, we are ready to move on. No solar or generator needed.

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Old 03-05-2017, 05:06 PM   #7
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Chargers

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You are expecting something that's not there.

Vehicle alternators have 2 tasks - recharging the battery while the vehicle is running, AND supplying the 12V power being used by the vehicle (which can be considerable these days).

In the old days of vehicle generators, you could actually tune the output voltage to match your battery usage. You'd want a slightly higher voltage if you did short haul driving, and a lower voltage if you did long haul. The higher voltage would be to recharge the battery faster, the lower voltage would be to prevent boiling away your battery water through over-charging.

Modern vehicle alternators generally charge at 2 voltages - 14.4V initially to quickly recharge the starting battery, and 13.7V to carry the loads and to top off the battery charge. You can measure voltage at your car or truck battery to verify. 14.4V is about as high as you can safely go without burning out light bulbs or frying more sensitive electronics that are operating while driving. 14.4V is barely enough for bulk mode charging of batteries - the actual current going into the battery will be limited by the battery to less than 20 amps.


Your RV converter is very similar. The 3 stage converters add a trickle charge mode which drops voltage to 13.2V after 40+ hours at the higher voltage to avoid long-term boiling of battery water (not needed in a vehicle alternator). The 4th stage (if the converter has one) is just a short burst of 14.4V to "stir up" the battery when in trickle mode. The 4th stage creates bubbles for a few minutes to cause the electrolyte in the cell to circulate.

Both RV converters and vehicle alternators are specifically limited to prevent them from destroying batteries through over-charging or excess voltages. The limitations do make recharge times a little (or a lot) longer than they have to be. It doesn't really matter the battery type - the alternator or converter operating correctly is not going to over-charge - even if it means a longer time to fully recharge.

A solar regulator attempts to maximize the recharging done by the solar panels. Charge voltages are generally higher (if the panel is providing that much) to take maximum advantage of the solar energy. The solar regulator will push much closer to the charging limit of the particular battery if there is energy enough to do so. Hence, the battery construction becomes important to the solar regulator. Internal battery temperature also plays a role in determining maximum charge rates - the most sophisticated solar regulators also use battery temperature as a parameter.

I use 2 Interstate GC-2 232AH batteries on my A-frame. I switched to a Progressive Dynamics converter when my OEM WFCO converter never went into trickle mode (measured voltages to find out). The PD converter and the alternator in my Hyundai do a fine job of maintaining the batteries. The batteries are sized to carry my A-frame for 4 consecutive 30 degree nights with 50% run time on the heater. By the end of 4 nights dry camping at one site, we are ready to move on. No solar or generator needed.

Fred W
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Thank you for a very good explanation. You make it sound simple. Now I understand the difference. I have a 1992 Coachman 37' Diesel pusher that thenpn board charger will cook the batteries. I also have a 2013 TT with the new style onboard charger that I leave on all the time with no pronlem. Now I underdtand the fifference. Thanks.
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Old 03-05-2017, 08:38 PM   #8
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BCC

It was my understanding that in the Sunseeker, there is a Battery Control Center (BCC) That monitors the state of charge in the various batteries and the available current from the various systems, alternator or line from the converter, that would charge both the house batteries and the vehicle battery as needed. I dry camp often and the recharge the deep cycle house batteries when we drive to the next location. Seems to be working fine.
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Old 03-05-2017, 09:53 PM   #9
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It was my understanding that in the Sunseeker, there is a Battery Control Center (BCC) That monitors the state of charge in the various batteries and the available current from the various systems, alternator or line from the converter, that would charge both the house batteries and the vehicle battery as needed. I dry camp often and the recharge the deep cycle house batteries when we drive to the next location. Seems to be working fine.
You are correct the BCC or Bird is nothing more than a voltage sensitive switch. It determines whether the chassis or house batteries need to be charged based on voltage. It then sends a voltage to a solenoid to connect the chassis batteries to the house batteries. The same result is at play, you have a cranking battery connected in parallel to house deep cycle batteries and I still contend that deep cycle batteries require different charging parameters from cranking batteries. The alternator is set up to maximize charging of cranking batteries not deep cycle batteries. It works out, but I'm convinced there is some kind of impact on the house batteries, possibly minimal.
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Old 03-05-2017, 10:09 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by BendOrLarry View Post
I too have charged deep cycle batteries off the alternator for years in several different RV's without known issue. I just feel there has to be some kind of impact charging mixed battery types on an alternator, or why do convertors and solar charge controller's specify battery type and charging profiles specific for deep cycle batteries?
I believe your doing it now with your Sunseeker. My 2012 Leprechaun has a solenoid by Coach Batteries that energizes when engine runs connecting the coach batteries to the Chassis battery to charge them. Those batteries are now (April 2012 to March 2017) approaching 5 years old with no problems and very minimal water added to coach deep cycle batteries.
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Old 03-06-2017, 12:02 AM   #11
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I believe your doing it now with your Sunseeker. My 2012 Leprechaun has a solenoid by Coach Batteries that energizes when engine runs connecting the coach batteries to the Chassis battery to charge them. Those batteries are now (April 2012 to March 2017) approaching 5 years old with no problems and very minimal water added to coach deep cycle batteries.
Of course I am, I know that, that's not the question!!! Please read the posts before stating the obvious.......
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Old 03-06-2017, 12:32 AM   #12
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Of course I am, I know that, that's not the question!!! Please read the posts before stating the obvious.......
OUCH. Only the OP question is being addressed.

QUOTE OP = "What are your thoughts on the impact on deep cycle batteries when charged by the chassis alternator?"
I MEANT NO DISRESPECT.
I believe I did answer it. Using the example of a popular RV doing what the question asked.
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Old 03-06-2017, 06:46 AM   #13
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You are correct the BCC or Bird is nothing more than a voltage sensitive switch. It determines whether the chassis or house batteries need to be charged based on voltage...
Not quite, actually it determines that the first bank is not tremendously undercharged and if so, it brings on the second bank. When the source is the alternator, it first makes sure that the chassis and alternator is above a threshold and then parallels the house. When the source is the converter,it does the reverse.

It is never a good thing to change anything but perfectly matched batteries in parallel...however, the BCC is not exactly doing that. It is dynamic and only parallels when certain voltage parameters have been reached. In recent years that threshold voltage has gotten lower and lower and today, most will bring on the other bank when the voltage is over 13 or so.

Deep cycle batteries are still lead acid and the charging parameters for 6 cells in series (one 12 or 2 6's) are the same. Now mixing AGM and flooded cell batteries is more problematic and the charging parameters for each type is somewhat different.

All in all, a single flooded cell chassis and 2 or 4 6 volt deep cycles can generally be charged in this way and achieve long life.
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Old 03-06-2017, 04:41 PM   #14
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As an electrical engineer and past RV dealer and long time user, FWIW I have some experience and opinions on this question.


1) While, sure, the engines alternator can indeed provide a degree of charge to flooded lead acid deep cycle house batteries (I have four Trojan T-105's) its my experience and opinion IT WILL NEVER BE THE QUALITY AND ACCURACY OF CHARGE AS MY SMART FOUR STAGE CHARGER PROVIDES (Bulk 14.4+, Absorption 13.6, Float 13.2, Equalize).


2) If you take a look at SmartGauges research and data you will see just how important different wiring configurations affect the balance of charge when charging multiple batteries. SmartGauge Electronics - Interconnecting multiple batteries to form one larger bank


3) The thing is how much of the alternators charge gets to the engine versus house batteries can depend on the cables and their size and length and overall resistance of cables and connections and relays.


4) Contrary to how my Smart Charger uses the 3/4 stages to achieve a correct accurate quality charge in my house batteries, when hooked to the alternator it may start at 14+ volts and then stay at maybe 13.6 EVEN AFTER EIGHT HOURS OF DRIVING.


5) Even after a days driving when I pull into an RV park and let my Smart Charger go to work, it initially indicates my house batteries ARE NOT 100% CHARGED and may go to its Absorption 13.6 volt charge rate for some time before detecting a full charge and settling in at 13.2 volt float


SUMMARY sure the alternator can pump some charge into the house batteries and Ive done it for years and never had a problem HOWEVER it depends on cables, wiring configuration (see Smart Guage) and size, length and resistance and in my opinion ITS NOT THE QUALITY ACCURACY AND FULL CHARGE A SMART 3/4 STAGE CHARGER CAN PROVIDE.


That's my opinion, my experience and my story and Ima stickin to it lol


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Old 03-06-2017, 05:50 PM   #15
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Not much to disagree with there. i didn't mean to say that you don't need a good 4 stage converter as it is essential. Besides, you generally don't drive for more than 8 hours and then hook up to shore power and the converter works for days or even months.
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Old 03-06-2017, 05:51 PM   #16
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As an electrical engineer and past RV dealer and long time user, FWIW I have some experience and opinions on this question.


1) While, sure, the engines alternator can indeed provide a degree of charge to flooded lead acid deep cycle house batteries (I have four Trojan T-105's) its my experience and opinion IT WILL NEVER BE THE QUALITY AND ACCURACY OF CHARGE AS MY SMART FOUR STAGE CHARGER PROVIDES (Bulk 14.4+, Absorption 13.6, Float 13.2, Equalize).


2) If you take a look at SmartGauges research and data you will see just how important different wiring configurations affect the balance of charge when charging multiple batteries. SmartGauge Electronics - Interconnecting multiple batteries to form one larger bank


3) The thing is how much of the alternators charge gets to the engine versus house batteries can depend on the cables and their size and length and overall resistance of cables and connections and relays.


4) Contrary to how my Smart Charger uses the 3/4 stages to achieve a correct accurate quality charge in my house batteries, when hooked to the alternator it may start at 14+ volts and then stay at maybe 13.6 EVEN AFTER EIGHT HOURS OF DRIVING.


5) Even after a days driving when I pull into an RV park and let my Smart Charger go to work, it initially indicates my house batteries ARE NOT 100% CHARGED and may go to its Absorption 13.6 volt charge rate for some time before detecting a full charge and settling in at 13.2 volt float


SUMMARY sure the alternator can pump some charge into the house batteries and Ive done it for years and never had a problem HOWEVER it depends on cables, wiring configuration (see Smart Guage) and size, length and resistance and in my opinion ITS NOT THE QUALITY ACCURACY AND FULL CHARGE A SMART 3/4 STAGE CHARGER CAN PROVIDE.


That's my opinion, my experience and my story and Ima stickin to it lol


John T
Thanks for the input. Your experience is similar to mine. I have always felt that the alternator is a secondary source of charge and not the preferred way to charge deep cycle house batteries. If the alternator was isolated from the chassis battery it might be a better approach to charging deep cycle batteries, but the charge requirements are simply different between the two different battery types.

The reason this issue is on my mind is, we boondock a lot and will go several days without connecting to shore power. Unless I charge the house batteries with a generator the house batteries are close to a 50% discharge when we move to the next location. This scenario happens often, so you start the engine, the chassis battery is close to it's rated surface charge and the house batteries are close to their dangerous discharge limit. Then the alternator pumps in a high current flow, based on what the chassis voltage regulator deems needed. This is not the way I think deeply discharged deep cycle batteries should be brought back to full or even close to full charge. I know we all have been operating RV's for years with systems like this but I thought it might be a good discussion to have to see what impact this might have on the expensive deep cycle batteries we all depend on.
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Old 03-06-2017, 05:58 PM   #17
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One other point. The scenario I described above: we might go for close to two weeks without hooking up to shore power, with little generator usage, so my deep cycle batteries are heavily impacted by what ever the alternator is doing to them between stops.
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Old 03-06-2017, 06:50 PM   #18
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Our experience is similar. A good 8 hour drive will do a lot more than a couple of hours of generator time, especially since my 70 amp converter is located 22 feet from my battery bank and is under wired. I have 4 deep cycle batteries and a residential reefer. Of course, the few days that I spend connected to shore power do much better and it really takes at least 24 hours to get up to 100% SOC.

I thought about running the engine or the generator, since the engine gives me significantly more charge current. HOWEVER, when the generator is running, the inverter is not supplying the reefer from the batteries, so on balance, the generator is a better investment for charging when boondocking.

The biggest problem that I have is that neither source can reliably get me back to 100% and 300 watts of solar does this nicely and runs day after day when not connected...especially in storage.
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Old 03-06-2017, 09:52 PM   #19
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One last addition: My 80 amp Progressive Dynamics PD9280 Smart 4 stage charger can bring my four batteries up to 100% SOC then kick into 13.2 volt float mode,,,,,,,,,My TracMax MPPT Solar Charge Controller with 475 watts of solar can bring my batteries up to 100% SOC on some days by noon subject to sun and load,,,,,,HOWEVER
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Old 03-06-2017, 09:59 PM   #20
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One last observation: My PD 9280 smart 4 stage 80 amp charger can bring my four Trojans up to 100% SOC (then kicks into float mode 13.2 volts) ,,,,,,,,,,,My 475 watts of solar and MPPT charge controller can on some days bring them up to 100% by noon subject to loads and sunlight,,,,,,,,,,,,HOWEVER even if I drive all day with house batteries in parallel with engine battery and alternator while a voltmeter on my house batteries may start at 14 then go to 13.6 MY HOUSE BATTERIES STILL DONT GET TO 100% and wont unless I fire up the genset and PD 9280 or when the sun comes up then next day.........


Again, sure I use the alternator to charge house batteries while driving and it "works" but NOT like my smart charger


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