Converter circuit breaker

[wmtire]

Originally Posted by NavyLCDR

What would the input (AC) wires to the converter attach to if it doesn't attach to a branch circuit breaker? I've had two trailers with the converter built-into (the lower half) of the power center. In both trailers the hot wire to the converter was routed to a 20 amp branch circuit breaker which is the only proper way to do it. The neutral wire was attached to the neutral buss and the ground wire was attached to ground buss - just like any other electrical load circuit.

This is correct. Even those power centers with a converter MBA (Main Board Assembly) in the power center, it is connected to a branch circuit breaker. Here is an example from a WFCO 8500 series product manual, page #12 excerpted below:

https://wfcoelectronics.com/wp-conte...-Manual-RP.pdf

"The Black power wire for the converter has a pigtail connection. The metal pin is inserted in the Branch breaker designated for converter power. The end with the wire nut can be used to power another circuit if necessary. If not used, leave the wire nut installed and push the wire to the side. Make sure all terminals are torqued to the specifications listed on the back of the enclosure."


On these types, the circuit breaker connection for the converter, has a pigtail already connected to it from the factory, that can also be used to connect another item to same circuit breaker... so more than the converter can be using that same circuit breaker. The label on the panel may show this second item and not the converter, but nonetheless, the converter is also connected to the branch circuit breaker.

The WFCO 8900 series has a good diagram of this:



I will be back shortly with info on the Progressive Dynamics power centers.

[wmtire]

OK, here is a link to Progressive Dynamics PD4500 power center that has the converter module in the power center:


https://www.progressivedyn.com/wp-co...LESHOOTING.pdf


You will see that the converter is connected to a branch circuit breaker with it's black power wire, when it explains how to replace the converter module (see step #2 in pic):





-------------------------------------------------


For those Progressive Dynamic power centers that may have the optional outlet on the back of the case to plug a deck type converter into, this optional outlet will also be connected to a branch circuit breaker. Here are some pics from PD showing such. You can see the prewired outlets black power wire going to a circuit breaker slot ready to be connected to a circuit breaker when they are installed.

https://www.progressivedyn.com/wp-co...onnections.pdf

[MR.M]

Originally Posted by Aussieguy

if the breaker panel and converter are one component
no need for a breaker for the converter... the main would do it


IF there is no wire runs from converter to panel nothing to protect with a breaker

my2c

No main is to big all have breakers .

[Iwritecode]

Originally Posted by MR.M

No main is to big all have breakers .

[wmtire]

Originally Posted by MR.M

No main is to big all have breakers .

Originally Posted by Iwritecode

I think MR.M is trying to say that the main is "too" big amp wise for the converter and all converters have their own circuit breaker.

This is somewhat true, but as pointed out in a previous post #42 above, the WFCO's can share a circuit between the converter and another item.

I am thinking that all this converter and circuit breaker discussion may need to be split off into it's own thread as we have really hijacked the OP's. I may move it all this evening. May even make it a FAQ.

[5picker]

Originally Posted by wmtire

I think MR.M is trying to say that the main is "too" big amp wise for the converter and all converters have their own circuit breaker.

This is somewhat true, but as pointed out in a previous post #42 above, the WFCO's can share a circuit between the converter and another item.

I am thinking that all this converter and circuit breaker discussion may need to be split off into it's own thread as we have really hijacked the OP's. I may move it all this evening. May even make it a FAQ.

A most excellent plan!

[wmtire]

I went ahead and moved the above 26 posts to their own thread here to continue the conversation and learning.

[NavyLCDR]

Originally Posted by Aussieguy

if the breaker panel and converter are one component
no need for a breaker for the converter... the main would do it


IF there is no wire runs from converter to panel nothing to protect with a breaker

my2c

Here's the problem with that theory. Circuit breakers have two sides, one side has the clips that press onto the buss bar, and the other side has a screw terminal to accept a wire. On the main circuit breaker, it is the shore power (or transfer switch with a generator) input wire that attaches to the circuit breaker. Then current flows from the screw terminal side to the buss bar.

So if the converter hot wire for the 120v AC input does not go to a branch circuit breaker screw terminal side, then what does it connect to? Aussieguy has not provided an explanation. If the converter hot wire is attached to the screw terminal of the main circuit breaker than it is connected directly to the shore power inlet and is only protected by the shore power breaker at the pedastal. Also, this wiring would need to be capable of carrying the rated shower power current of 30 or 50 amps and the input wire to the converter is not rated for that much current.

The same is true for an outlet on the back of the power panel. It would have to be a 30 or 50 amp outlet and it clearly is not.

That's why I would love to see a wiring diagram or a picture of a converter that is not wired to a branch circuit breaker (or in really old RVs a branch fuse). I don't think one will be forthcoming, though.

[wmtire]

Originally Posted by DouglasReid

One thing people are mistakenly saying here is that the converter can be turned off by turning off all the electrical breakers. That is incorrect. The converter is plugged into the rear of the load center with a 3 prong plug and runs whenever there is a 12 volt load, like charging the battery. If an electrical supply is plugged into the camper the converter is powered up.

DouglasReid, from your statement about your converter being plugged into the back of the load center as well as another post of yours stating you have a Progressive Dynamics deck type converter, we will assume you also have a Progressive Dynamics load center.

Using these pics as a guide for the outlet on the back of the load center, you should be able to remove the front cover to the circuit breakers on the panel, then see where the wires from the outlet trace to. The back side of that outlet, with it's wires, should be in a corner of the load center somewhere and you should be able to see all of this.

You also should be able to see the outlets white neutral wire go to the neutral bus bar, the green (or sometimes bare) safety ground wire go to the ground bus bar....but most importantly you should be able to see this outlets black hot wire going to a circuit breaker.

Let us know what you find. Pictures would be fantastic. Thanks

[ependydad]

Originally Posted by Aussieguy

if the breaker panel and converter are one component
no need for a breaker for the converter... the main would do it


IF there is no wire runs from converter to panel nothing to protect with a breaker

my2c

I have a built-in converter and still have a breaker specifically for it. It's important as there are times that you may not want it to be on. I'll turn mine on and off strategically if I am on a 30amp campsite and am trying to maximize my available amps for other things. As well, in past RVs, I would turn it off when I plugged the whole RV into an inverter.



That all said, some 30amp campers do not have a dedicated breaker for it. It's part of a breaker that controls it and other things.

[ependydad]

Originally Posted by DouglasReid

One thing people are mistakenly saying here is that the converter can be turned off by turning off all the electrical breakers. That is incorrect. The converter is plugged into the rear of the load center with a 3 prong plug and runs whenever there is a 12 volt load, like charging the battery. If an electrical supply is plugged into the camper the converter is powered up. The greater the 12 volt draw the more amps the converter needs.

The only way to stop the converter using 120 volts is to disconnect the battery by use of the Battery Disconnect switch or, in the alternative removing the Negative Battery Cable from the battery.

You're mixing 12v and 120v in this discussion and I'm finding it very, very confusing.

I can, and have, turned OFF my converter by turning off its 20amp AC/alternating current breaker in the distribution panel. I have proven this in the past in multiple RVs now. Turning off that breaker turns off the converter from making 12v power from 120v power.

The 12v system in the camper is still fed by the battery but it has nothing at all to do with the converter. If you want to disable the 12v system in the RV, then yes- you must disconnect a battery cable (or use a battery disconnect switch).

[DouglasReid]

Originally Posted by ependydad

You're mixing 12v and 120v in this discussion and I'm finding it very, very confusing.

I can, and have, turned OFF my converter by turning off its 20amp AC/alternating current breaker in the distribution panel. I have proven this in the past in multiple RVs now. Turning off that breaker turns off the converter from making 12v power from 120v power.

The 12v system in the camper is still fed by the battery but it has nothing at all to do with the converter. If you want to disable the 12v system in the RV, then yes- you must disconnect a battery cable (or use a battery disconnect switch).

Sorry for taking so long to answer, Ive been a bit busy. And apparently I was having a Blonde Week because my converter is on a circuit breaker in the Load Center. Clearly I had confused my Converter with my hard wired PI EMS.

They are in the same cabinet space with the EMS on the back wall and the Converter screwed to the floor in front of it. I installed both so you would think Id remember the difference, but alas time takes its toll, doesn't it?

I will now bend over and hold my ankles (wish I was still limber enough to do that) and take my licks for being so wrong.

[wmtire]

Originally Posted by DouglasReid

Sorry for taking so long to answer, Ive been a bit busy. And apparently I was having a Blonde Week because my converter is on a circuit breaker in the Load Center. Clearly I had confused my Converter with my hard wired PI EMS.

They are in the same cabinet space with the EMS on the back wall and the Converter screwed to the floor in front of it. I installed both so you would think Id remember the difference, but alas time takes its toll, doesn't it?

I will now bend over and hold my ankles (wish I was still limber enough to do that) and take my licks for being so wrong.

Thanks for coming back and letting us know you don't have a unicorn after all...or that somebody may have miswired something. Hopefully this thread may help other members in the future.

[Aussieguy]

IF the converter is part of the load center... I still say they can be wired with no breaker as there is no wiring to protect

They can and do use a breaker as a switch for turning off / on the converter, that is NOT what a breaker is designed for.

Yet it will do the job well enough. not going to split hairs on whether you should use a breaker or switch.

as for the converter not tripping the 30amp...
if the converter failed it has it's own internal protection ..

it may fail in a low power section of a circuit board but at a real low amperage
internal failures do not always trip a breaker whether it is 5, 15 or 30amps

The breaker's ONLY job is to protect the wiring inside walls etc.

[wmtire]

Originally Posted by Aussieguy

IF the converter is part of the load center... I still say they can be wired with no breaker as there is no wiring to protect

.

Just taking this part of your comment, how can you say there is no wiring to protect? Take a look at the pics in posts 21 and 22. There is wiring from the converter modules. How else could you connect the converter MBA/modules to the AC circuits?

Please study these diagrams.

The converters are and always will be connected via a circuit breaker. You may want to start all over on this thread and reread it all.

[Mr. Dan]

Originally Posted by Aussieguy

IF the converter is part of the load center... I still say they can be wired with no breaker as there is no wiring to protect

They can and do use a breaker as a switch for turning off / on the converter, that is NOT what a breaker is designed for.

Yet it will do the job well enough. not going to split hairs on whether you should use a breaker or switch.

as for the converter not tripping the 30amp...
if the converter failed it has it's own internal protection ..

it may fail in a low power section of a circuit board but at a real low amperage
internal failures do not always trip a breaker whether it is 5, 15 or 30amps

The breaker's ONLY job is to protect the wiring inside walls etc.

There is absolutely nothing in your post that stops (most/all) RV manufacturers from wiring an RV converter to a breaker.

[wmtire]

Originally Posted by Aussieguy

They can and do use a breaker as a switch for turning off / on the converter, that is NOT what a breaker is designed for.

Yet it will do the job well enough. not going to split hairs on whether you should use a breaker or switch.

Just as a FYI, as you may not be aware. I took Ependydads pic of his electric panel and zoomed in. If you will notice on his circuit breakers (I emboldened in red), it is a SWD circuit breaker. This means it is designed for switch duty, if you want to google SWD circuit breakers.

[5picker]

Originally Posted by wmtire

Just as a FYI, as you may not be aware. I took Ependydads pic of his electric panel and zoomed in. If you will notice on his circuit breakers (I emboldened in red), it is a SWD circuit breaker. This means it is designed for switch duty, if you want to google SWD circuit breakers.

Yep... I've got several breakers in my power/load center in the R/V with switch duty breakers. They can be and are used as switches.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Forest River Forums mobile app

[Aussieguy]

My comments ONLY to be used if the converter is built in to the panel and has no longish wiring OUTSIDE the panel .

There should be a way to turn off/on the converter.. for servicing
breaker or switch.......... take your pick.


They use a breaker because the panel is setup for breakers and they
don't have to make room for a switch ... cheaper to make


In the above instance the breaker is really being used as an isolation switch...
there is no wiring that needs protection.

the amount of times the converter will be switched off / on won't affect the life of the breaker. even if the breaker is designed to be a switched

never said they need to stop using breaker or switches

Just said it may be possible that there is no breaker someone may decide to add the switch and use the breaker for another circuit...

new owner could be looking forever for the breaker that may not exist anymore
Highly unlikely we'll ever come across post that has this situation and can't find breaker. BUT Murphey is still out there.


last I heard even the Russians sent him back....... without any conditions.

[wmtire]

Originally Posted by Aussieguy

Just said it may be possible that there is no breaker someone may decide to add the switch and use the breaker for another circuit...

Ok, again where would the converter get it's 120 volt AC to convert to 12 volt DC...if it's not connected to a 120 volt AC circuit? I don't think you are really understanding how a converter works.

And if you will reread this thread (post 21), you will see where WFCO does indeed allow the same circuit to be used for the converter MBA as well as another item. It comes prewired for just such a scenario.

If we ever do catch/read where someone miswires their converter to the MAIN breaker of direct wires it to the incoming shore power connections as you seem to be insinuating...we will be sure to correct them.